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  #91  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:21 PM
switchsl switchsl is offline
 
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I like the pictures myself. I wish I had some. . I had a win silvertip once with a bone frag stuck in it from a shoulder shot. Recovered a .50 cal round ball from a mule buck the size of a quarter fired from a pennsylvania long rifle once. It was hand cast though, not berger, nosler, barnes bonded or otherwise
  #92  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:23 PM
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I have shot both partition and accubond. The recovered partitions were perfect bullet expantion and had ellelent weight retention. Some times it was an instant knock down sometimes they ran. The accubond had perfect penetration seems to be more accurate at the range, and from my experience "explodes" on impact. Most of my shots have been in the 100yrd range and I have had instant knock downs on every animal I have taken with them. When you gut the animal it is like a gernade went off in its chest cavity. On 2 occasions I have even almost taken off the front leg (on the opposite side of the bullet entry) from the rapid fragmentation. I shoot a .270 130 gr shell.

I would go partition for meat hunting. I would go accubond for long range shooting as I have found the accuracy to be great, as well as for trophy hunting where you are looking for the instant knock down. Just my 2 cents.
  #93  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:40 PM
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I also was impressed by the accuracy of the accubond. Im partial to ballistic tips aswell for the durability when you load and unload rounds while hunting.
  #94  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:41 PM
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Accurate bullet placement is still the most important part of "ethically" harvesting any game animal! There is probably more moose killed over the last 50 years with a 30-30 or 303 brit. with Imperial/winchester/Remington factory loads. Having said that , there was probably more wounded by the same cartriges in that time period because of poor bullet placement.
  #95  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Ya, the whole energy dump concept is a bit of a myth and the more that the effects of bullets are studied, the more we realize how they kill. I do find it fiunny that Justin is arguing that a shallow penetrating bullet is more effective when he likes the Berger. The Berger is actually designed for deep penetration at long ranges, creating a wide temporary wound channel. It is the fragmentation (loss of mass) that prevents the Berger from passing right through in many cases but as with all bullets, it's the hole that kills and in the case of the Berger, the secondary damage caused by the fragmentation. After watching the video, I see Justin was just parroting what he saw in the video about ethics. The thing he forgot was to add the phrase long-range.

The Berger is effective at long range because it retains velocity well because of its high BC. It quite simply strikes with more velocity, indeed making it a great long-range choice. That hardly makes other bullets unethical within their performance envelope though.

Energy on its own rarely kills but a hole through vital blood supply or organ always does. Deep penetrating bullets make deep holes and the long wound channel allows for more widely spread area of shock...basically a one-two punch. Just because a bullet doest stop dead inside of an animal does not mean there is not considerable temporary shock to surrounding tissue. That's what deep penetrating bullets do. Trying to meaasure energy dump and equate it to killing power just doesn't work. There is far more going on along the wound channel than a simple energy dump.
Why would bullet and gun powder manufactures, along with reloading books indicate volocity and energy? Is it only volocity that counts and not energy? Are these manufactures been feeding us a myth all of these years? Is a 125 grain bullet equal to a 220 grain bullet when shot from a 30-06? Why do some animals fall and others run off? Does "Sheephunter" know something that these bullet manufactures don't know? I have been reloading for 28 years and can't believe that I have been duked for so long! Tell me more "Sheephunter" that this 53 year old hunting veteran dosen't know?
  #96  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:04 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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You a Killer ???? Elk Hunter?
When I am hunting,I certainly intend to kill the animal,don't you?
As such,I choose a gun,cartridge and bullet that will help me provide quick clean kills,rather than a fancy looking rifle shooting double radius cartridge cases to sit back and admire.
  #97  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
Why would bullet and gun powder manufactures, along with reloading books indicate volocity and energy? Is it only volocity that counts and not energy? Are these manufactures been feeding us a myth all of these years? Is a 125 grain bullet equal to a 220 grain bullet when shot from a 30-06? Why do some animals fall and others run off? Does "Sheephunter" know something that these bullet manufactures don't know? I have been reloading for 28 years and can't believe that I have been duked for so long! Tell me more "Sheephunter" that this 53 year old hunting veteran dosen't know?
Flint, if you actually read what I posted, you'd have seen that I said that there were basically two wound channels, a permanent caused by the bullet going through the flesh and a secondary, non-permanent that is a result of that "energy". While the two work together to shock the animal, in all but the most rare of cases, it's only the permanent wound channel that causes death. The non-permanent wound channel can cause a temporary disruption of organs, nervous system and such....a knock down factor of sorts but only in very rare cases does energy actually kill when a bullet strikes an animal.

Energy can also be used as part of the calculation in comparing penetration of equal bullets. Manufacturers really don't need to include the energy as energy in tables is a direct result of velocity and mass. Throw a one pound rock twice as fast as another one pound rock and it has twice as much energy. Energy is one of those over used and little understood terms when it comes to bullets. It was important in the days before controled expansion bullets but honestly has far less importance these days. Energy does not kill nor does it have a universal effect on the penetration of all bullets.

No need to be condescending, I'm just passing along what I've learned along the way. BTW, the 53 year old age card has little effect on this 50 year old....

Last edited by sheephunter; 04-09-2010 at 01:14 PM.
  #98  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:14 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Throw a one pound rock twice as fast as another one pound rock and it has twice as much energy.
Actually,it would have four times as much kinetic energy.
  #99  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Actually,it would have four times as much kinetic energy.
And it still wouldn't put a hole in the heart.
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  #100  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Actually,it would have four times as much kinetic energy.
Knew that sounded wrong. Correct you are.
  #101  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:21 PM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I'd be very interested in seeing your science as it contradicts pretty well everything I've read on terminal bullet performance. I'm not saying you are using a bad bullet or that it doesn't kill or hang up on the far hide, I just don't think you fully understand the dynamics of a bullet passing through an animal but I'd be keen to read the science you are basing your theory on.

Use what shoots and performs well and in North America, bullet choice likely makes very little difference but when you start shooting very large game or extreme ranges, understanding terminal performance is very important.
Sorry physics not sciece. go and punch all the numbers.
  #102  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JustinC View Post
Sorry physics not sciece. go and punch all the numbers.
What numbers?
  #103  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:27 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Sorry physics not sciece. go and punch all the numbers.
Numbers don't kill game animals,and they can't show you how effective a bullet will be on game animals.
  #104  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:28 PM
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What numbers?
123456789 those ones. Quit your crap.I here you you are the guy with 7500 replies you know everything about anything.
  #105  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:32 PM
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123456789 those ones. Quit your crap.I here you you are the guy with 7500 replies you know everything about anything.
Thanks for confirming your depth of knowledge on this subject......ugh
  #106  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JustinC View Post
123456789 those ones. Quit your crap.I here you you are the guy with 7500 replies you know everything about anything.
After reading this thread it is obvious what you DON'T know about...
I love Berger bullets, I've shot everything from moose to bighorn with them AND I love Barnes TTSX bullets as well and have killed a fair number of animals with them including my longest - a 700 yard antelope.
Chuck used to have a great tag line it went something like "energy doesn't kill, the hole does." It is pretty accurate. Sometime for giggles you need to research how much energy "transfers" or better put changes state. You will be amazed at the amount.
  #107  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:37 PM
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whitetail Junkie whitetail Junkie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
When I am hunting,I certainly intend to kill the animal,don't you?
As such,I choose a gun,cartridge and bullet that will help me provide quick clean kills,rather than a fancy looking rifle shooting double radius cartridge cases to sit back and admire.
well lets see what you have killed?,dont think i've ever seen yaa post a hunting pic yet? whats with that? Fancy guns are great.one of better looking wood stock rifles we have is on a cooper classic rifle in a 280AI,your Favorite.
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  #108  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:45 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie View Post
well lets see what you have killed?,dont think i've ever seen yaa post a hunting pic yet? whats with that? Fancy guns are great.one of better looking wood stock rifles we have is on a cooper classic rifle in a 280AI,your Favorite.
Many of us have seen them and most of us wouldn't call his hunting experience on the carpet.
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  #109  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 209x50 View Post
Chuck used to have a great tag line it went something like "energy doesn't kill, the hole does." It is pretty accurate.
It's back and appropriately so.
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  #110  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Many of us have seen them and most of us wouldn't call his hunting experience on the carpet.
Was just curious,no harm meant,just never seen any hunting pictures of his.
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  #111  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:45 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Have a look in the hunting forum,I posted some pictures just for you.I haven't posted anything recently,because I missed two complete years of hunting and shooting due to vision issues.I just got back into hunting and shooting again late last fall,after some eye surgery.
  #112  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:56 PM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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hunting pictures are why i became interested in this forum in the first place. i think we all need to post more of em. ogling horn porn is so much more fun than arguing over what kills stuff deader... and i for one promise not to call anyone stupid for clothing choice while hunting or caliber or shooting a 710 or whatever. i gotta go dig up some pics.
  #113  
Old 04-09-2010, 03:34 PM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Thanks for confirming your depth of knowledge on this subject......ugh
How is that? Tj you and your b buddy Rich know it all so why explain it anymore.I am sick of the two of you so I dont need to keep this going anymore.bolth good bullets I hate on SO WHAT.. I am not going to put a bunch info on here so I can be told I am wrong. Or even prove my self to you. I know nothing right.I cant wait to see you two face to face so You can tell me I know sh!t to my face. I dont live on here like you do.That is why you are on your second marrige right..
  #114  
Old 04-09-2010, 03:56 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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BTW...I'm not married....
God I could have hit that one out of the park but that would be just mean
  #115  
Old 04-09-2010, 04:00 PM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
LOL...Justin, you went to a website and watched a cartoon and then you came back here and parroted what you heard, out of context, and now when challenged, the best you best you can do is hurl personal insults. I'm in no hurry to see you face to face......

The only I reason I said you were wrong is because you were...

BTW...I'm not married....
No cartoons for me for over twenty something years.I dont have a problem being wrong.If I am I will admit it.I think I am rite and so are you.I dont like all the pot shots at me. So you will get them back. Your face to face comment is one of the smartest thing you have said. Married whatever.
  #116  
Old 04-09-2010, 04:10 PM
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holy cow, this is one horrible arguement. Sheephunter and Chuck have been gracious enough to help Justin out with a misunderstanding and he acts like a spoiled brat. Those guys have given some great factual information and you have given an uneducated opinion. Justin, this is what sheephunter does for a living. It is his job to fact find and expirement and know what he is talking about. There is no reason to flog him for proving you wrong. Thanks sheep and chuck for the info. I had it wrong in my head before but I believe I have a better understanding on what a bullet actually does now.

thanks
  #117  
Old 04-09-2010, 04:17 PM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Chuck is a stand up guy. I belevie what he was saying.Tj to the rescue like always. I dont care what his job is Keep it to him self.He knows I dont like him.So he has it in his head to prove me wrong or make me look bad. I dont care if you think I am a spoiled brat. I sure the hell was never spoiled. Worked my azz off for everything I have got.IF I made my self look bad to bad for me right????


Thanks for your comments.
  #118  
Old 04-09-2010, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JustinC View Post
Chuck is a stand up guy. I belevie what he was saying.Tj to the rescue like always. I dont care what his job is Keep it to him self.He knows I dont like him.So he has it in his head to prove me wrong or make me look bad. I dont care if you think I am a spoiled brat. I sure the hell was never spoiled. Worked my azz off for everything I have got.IF I made my self look bad to bad for me right????


Thanks for your comments.
You are right! TJ wasn't required for you to look bad, you handled that job all by yourself.
  #119  
Old 04-09-2010, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JustinC View Post
Chuck is a stand up guy. I belevie what he was saying.Tj to the rescue like always. I dont care what his job is Keep it to him self.He knows I dont like him.So he has it in his head to prove me wrong or make me look bad. I dont care if you think I am a spoiled brat. I sure the hell was never spoiled. Worked my azz off for everything I have got.IF I made my self look bad to bad for me right????


Thanks for your comments.
I dont see it as him trying to make you look bad. TJ has proven many times to be a lot of help to people seeking or needing advice. Why is it so wrong for him to see a person that is misunderstanding a subject and try to give some advice. One of the best things about this site is the huge amount of knowledge that is available to us all. I for one would like to keep that around. No one likes to be wrong but sometimes ya just gotta suck it up. You are resisting help because of a personal dislike. not fair to him at all. The numbers comments of yours was pretty much like shooting yourself in the foot. It showed you had no actual proof or facts to back up an opinion. As everyone should know. you can't win an argument with opinions, you start an argument with an opinion and back it up with facts. the one with the least appropriate facts, loses. the end
  #120  
Old 04-09-2010, 04:36 PM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Originally Posted by mulecrazy View Post
I dont see it as him trying to make you look bad. TJ has proven many times to be a lot of help to people seeking or needing advice. Why is it so wrong for him to see a person that is misunderstanding a subject and try to give some advice. One of the best things about this site is the huge amount of knowledge that is available to us all. I for one would like to keep that around. No one likes to be wrong but sometimes ya just gotta suck it up. You are resisting help because of a personal dislike. not fair to him at all. The numbers comments of yours was pretty much like shooting yourself in the foot. It showed you had no actual proof or facts to back up an opinion. As everyone should know. you can't win an argument with opinions, you start an argument with an opinion and back it up with facts. the one with the least appropriate facts, loses. the end
Thanks for you comment you are right. I still think they were right I have said that.I also said that I had some points that are correct.(not all).Tj may know a thing or two but Rich riding his coat tail is a joke.Just like him. Thanks for the info TJ. You and I still dislike each other So we will leave it at that.
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