Vertical alignment of Rifle and Scope?

[Off in the Bushes]

With out hijacking my previous thread.
Ok, so I think that I have enough info to mount the scope. There is a confusing part of aligning the the vertical hold of the cross hairs with the vertical hold of the rifle. All the tools I see like wheeler level-level-level are all basing the vertical hold of the rifle off attached bases which may not be correct. How does one find the vertical centre of the rifle if the receiver is rounded?
Is this accuracy as critical or more then as having scope properly aligned.
Are dovetail levels accurate?
Thanks again I want to do this right and do it once.

[DiabeticKripple]

I use the wheeler levels.

One on the base, one on top of the turret with the cap removed.

[claykuch]

"I use the wheeler levels.

One on the base, one on top of the turret with the cap removed."


I used to use Wheeler levels till I checked them.... They aren't level!

[Nyksta]

If theres no flat spots on the top, look for a flat spot somewhere on the bottom. (Magazine well?) You can create a skinny rest out of a piece of wood the right size, confirm your support is level, then you can rest your rifle on it and know its upright.

[Wrongside]

This company's Reticle-Tru is some of the best money I've spent on scope mounting tools.

https://parabola-llc.com

[Salavee]

I use the Wheeler Levels as well. Another good tool to have is a Borescope with a grid, like the the Bushnell Borescope Pro model. With it, once everything is level and aligned, you can adjust your cross-hairs to the bore verticle and horizontal as well, not to mention that it will usually get your first shot POI on paper. .

[spurly]

Level the rife, and hang a plumbob in front to set your reticle.

[EZM]

I have the wheeler lapping and gun smith tool kit .......... ironically, I found one of the magnetic levels to be far less than accurate and certainly not level.

I have to say I was quite disappointed after dropping some serious money on a "quality" kit.

The torque driver and the rest of the stuff, however, seems to be pretty good.

[Off in the Bushes]

Originally Posted by spurly

Level the rife, and hang a plumbob in front to set your reticle.

It is the leveling of the rifle that I’m struggling to find a accurate method.

[spurly]

My wheeler level level seems to work fine. You could then hang your plumbob in front to align the reticle.

[Dean2]

Use a level and Plumb Bob to put a perfectly level + on a wall ten feet or more away. Mount the gun on your shoulder using sticks, bipod or offhand depending how you shoot. Level the reticle to the shoulder mounted rifle. What is important is that the reticle is level and square vertically when you are shooting it. Being square while the gun is in a vice is actually irrelevant unless you are mounting a scope strictly for shooting from a bench mounted rest like BR competition. Getting it square in a vice may not make it square when you are shooting it because your body and shoulder are not perfectly vertical or horizontally true.

[fps plus]

I use a combo of machinist level and the barrel clamp portion of the wheeler level . The machinist level is just an accurate level

If one can lock the rifle solid and keep it square and not move whilst mounting the scope , you don’t need the level that mounts on the barrel. That however can be difficult.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Use a level and Plumb Bob to put a perfectly level + on a wall ten feet or more away. Mount the gun on your shoulder using sticks, bipod or offhand depending how you shoot. Level the reticle to the shoulder mounted rifle. What is important is that the reticle is level and square vertically when you are shooting it. Being square while the gun is in a vice is actually irrelevant unless you are mounting a scope strictly for shooting from a bench mounted rest like BR competition. Getting it square in a vice may not make it square when you are shooting it because your body and shoulder are not perfectly vertical or horizontally true.

I want the rifle vertical , when the reticle is vertical, then I can work at holding the rifle vertical. If the rifle is not vertical, you are introducing angular error at any distance except the distance the scope is zeroed at. If you use turrets, or a BDC reticle, with angular error present, the point of impact will be off at longer distances.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Use a level and Plumb Bob to put a perfectly level + on a wall ten feet or more away. Mount the gun on your shoulder using sticks, bipod or offhand depending how you shoot. Level the reticle to the shoulder mounted rifle. What is important is that the reticle is level and square vertically when you are shooting it. Being square while the gun is in a vice is actually irrelevant unless you are mounting a scope strictly for shooting from a bench mounted rest like BR competition. Getting it square in a vice may not make it square when you are shooting it because your body and shoulder are not perfectly vertical or horizontally true.

Wrong
Leveling the rifle and then the optic will show you if your holding your rifle crooked. A lot of people have engrained bad habits into their shooting form. If you mount a level permanently on your scope or rings it’s a great tool to show you if your canted

[Pathfinder76]

It has nothing to do with poor form nor does it matter one bit if your crosshairs are level to your rifle. Not one bit. Your crosshairs need to be level to your target. That’s it. And even that won’t make a pile of difference at normal hunting distances.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Wrong
Leveling the rifle and then the optic will show you if your holding your rifle crooked. A lot of people have engrained bad habits into their shooting form. If you mount a level permanently on your scope or rings it’s a great tool to show you if your canted

Sorry but you are incorrect. You have misread or misunderstood the effect of canting a rife. Assuming the barrel's bore is centered in the barrel and that the scope is mounted parallel to the bore then the rifle being canted has no effect on the POI changing AS LONG as the scope is square to the target and the earth. The vertical and horizontal error is induced by the effect of canting the optic when shooting, which changes the relationship of the line of sight to the bores axis, not the cant to the gun itself. A level on a gun is helpful but it must be set to the point where the scope is square to the world not the gun itself. You could literally shoot a rifle that is held 45 degrees to vertical as long as the scope is square then the vertical and horizontal shift in the POI from adjusting the scope will be accurate. For that matter, you can even hold a gun, with a scope that is mounted level to the world with the gun in the true vertical position, at a ten degree cant and you will not see any change in POI as long as every shot is always at a ten degree cant.

https://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_tests.html

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...tubb-explains/

[raised by wolves]

Putting a level on the turret cap is not always a guarantee of aligning the optic to the receiver as even some of the best scopes on the market are not necessarily aligned perfectly. I never rely on the turret cap as I have encountered slight variations in reticle alignment within optics such as Leupold VX2, VX3, Mark 4, Nightforce, Swarovski, and Leica.

Like most guys, I level the receiver using either a bubble on the rail or other optics base, or one that mounts directly to the feed rails. If I have any doubts about a reticle being perfectly aligned to the scope body, I draw a vertical line on the fence or shed, or if there is no wind I will hang a plumb line. Whichever one I use will be at least 50 meters away (just my choice, 25 metres would be adequate). I increase the magnification on the scope and align the vertical portion of my reticle with the line or string.

A buddy of mine from competition days uses a similar practice. He projects a laser level on his shop wall and aligns the horizontal portion of his reticle.

[marky_mark]

Well according to your articles, it states the rifle must be level
I’ve never ever seen anywhere saying that holding a gun like a gangster gave you any type of accuracy
Level rifle
Level scope
Repeatable and predictable results

QUOTE=Dean2;3924247]Sorry but you are incorrect. You have misread or misunderstood the effect of canting a rife. Assuming the barrel's bore is centered in the barrel and that the scope is mounted parallel to the bore then the rifle being canted has no effect on the POI changing AS LONG as the scope is square to the target and the earth. The vertical and horizontal error is induced by the effect of canting the optic when shooting, which changes the relationship of the line of sight to the bores axis, not the cant to the gun itself. A level on a gun is helpful but it must be set to the point where the scope is square to the world not the gun itself. You could literally shoot a rifle that is held 45 degrees to vertical as long as the scope is square then the vertical and horizontal shift in the POI from adjusting the scope will be accurate. For that matter, you can even hold a gun, with a scope that is mounted level to the world with the gun in the true vertical position, at a ten degree cant and you will not see any change in POI as long as every shot is always at a ten degree cant.

https://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_tests.html

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...tubb-explains/[/QUOTE]

[Dean2]

I did not recommend shooting a rifle "Gangster Style" it was used for illustration purposes only. That said, shooting a rifle gangster style will not affect its accuracy one way or the other.

Many guys mount the scope level to a level gun because that is the easiest way to mount a scope. It is not the only way to get a good repeatable mounting. The use of a scope level, leveled to the cross hairs, is a great way to ensure you have the reticle NOT canted every time and is very useful for longer shots.

Either you are misreading the articles or you aren't getting the information being conveyed. Whichever it is, carry on McDuff, I am done trying to help you understand. The OP can believe whoever he wishes.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Sorry but you are incorrect. You have misread or misunderstood the effect of canting a rife. Assuming the barrel's bore is centered in the barrel and that the scope is mounted parallel to the bore then the rifle being canted has no effect on the POI changing AS LONG as the scope is square to the target and the earth. The vertical and horizontal error is induced by the effect of canting the optic when shooting, which changes the relationship of the line of sight to the bores axis, not the cant to the gun itself. A level on a gun is helpful but it must be set to the point where the scope is square to the world not the gun itself. You could literally shoot a rifle that is held 45 degrees to vertical as long as the scope is square then the vertical and horizontal shift in the POI from adjusting the scope will be accurate. For that matter, you can even hold a gun, with a scope that is mounted level to the world with the gun in the true vertical position, at a ten degree cant and you will not see any change in POI as long as every shot is always at a ten degree cant.

https://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_tests.html

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...tubb-explains/

If you hold the rifle at 45 degrees, and set the crosshairs perfectly vertical, the bore and center of the crosshairs will not be aligned horizontally. At 45 degrees, a scope mounted so that the crosshairs are 2" from the bore, will have a horizontal offset of 1", so with no correction the point of impact will be out by 1" at 100 yards, 1" at 200 yards etc. But if you adjust the scope to zero it at 100 yards, the point of impact will be out by 1" at 200 yards, due to the angular error you have introduced to correct the zero at 100 yards.As the distance increases, the point of impact will be out further and further, because of that angular error you introduced to zero the scope at 100 yards. Now if the rifle is only canted a few degrees, the offset will be much smaller, and may not be significant for big game hunting, but it will still exist. But you are correct, in that as long as the scope is level, the vertical corrections will still be correct, but the offset will still exist at every distance but the distance that the scope is zeroed at.

[fps plus]

Gravity works straight up and down
If cross hair not over line of bore and vertical the point of impact will be off of that line and be compounded the further out one goes

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Well according to your articles, it states the rifle must be level
I’ve never ever seen anywhere saying that holding a gun like a gangster gave you any type of accuracy
Level rifle
Level scope
Repeatable and predictable results

QUOTE=Dean2;3924247]Sorry but you are incorrect. You have misread or misunderstood the effect of canting a rife. Assuming the barrel's bore is centered in the barrel and that the scope is mounted parallel to the bore then the rifle being canted has no effect on the POI changing AS LONG as the scope is square to the target and the earth. The vertical and horizontal error is induced by the effect of canting the optic when shooting, which changes the relationship of the line of sight to the bores axis, not the cant to the gun itself. A level on a gun is helpful but it must be set to the point where the scope is square to the world not the gun itself. You could literally shoot a rifle that is held 45 degrees to vertical as long as the scope is square then the vertical and horizontal shift in the POI from adjusting the scope will be accurate. For that matter, you can even hold a gun, with a scope that is mounted level to the world with the gun in the true vertical position, at a ten degree cant and you will not see any change in POI as long as every shot is always at a ten degree cant.

https://www.riflescopelevel.com/cant_tests.html

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...tubb-explains/

[/QUOTE]

Your crosshairs need to be level. Not your rifle.

[fps plus]

Wow there is definitely some confusion other this and it’s not a difficult comcept

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by fps plus

Wow there is definitely some confusion other this and it’s not a difficult comcept

Yup level your reticle to your rifle ( centered over the bore), keep your rifle/ reticle level while shooting...pretty simple.
Can't doesn't really have much effect until you start dialing and shooting longer ranges.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by fps plus

Wow there is definitely some confusion other this and it’s not a difficult comcept

It is not as simple as many make it out to be. If you mount a round scope parallel to and in a dead line above a round bore, then the center of the scope and the center of the bore must by definition be in direct alignment. The issue comes in when you introduce a crosshair and an erector system for adjusting the vertical and horizontal impact of the bullet. At this point, the center of the cross hair may or many not be in the dead middle of the center of the scope. The erector system is designed to move the horizontal crosshair up and down and the vertical crosshair left and right. Any angle introduced into the alignment of the cross hair to perfectly vertical and horizontal to the world means a vertical adjustment will also create left or right adjustment to the POI and a windage adjustment will introduce vertical movement. The center of the scope and the bore has not moved, just the crosshair is moving up down or left and right.

With respect to cant affecting POI in the absence of any adjustment, this occurs due to the line of sight rotating away from direct alignment of the bore at the alignment that the rifle was sighted in at. If the crosshair was dead center in the middle of the scope, and no adjustments were being made, the cant in the crosshair would not affect the POI. Take a scope, mount it in a v-groove and center the crosshair on a dot or +. Now slowly rotate it 180 degrees, you will easily see that the crosshair moves left, right and/or up and down. This is caused by the reticle not being dead center in the middle of the scope. The further out towards the extremes of vertical or windage adjustment the more pronounced this effect is and is why scope makers recommend you use the windage screws on the mount to try and keep the reticle as close to dead centre of adjustment as possible.

[fps plus]

As I said before it’s a simple concept gravity works straight up and down . If you want your bullet to fall in that plain over the course of its flight it must be above the line of the bore and the cross hair vertical to the same line

[Pathfinder76]

Watch this in its entirety and then explain to the rest of us how little he knows.

https://youtu.be/Su1Vq-hc7MY

[obsessed1]

I have all types of leveling tools from simple levels to clamp on levels to wedge systems and everything in between. Simplest and cheapest method is the marine method using a simple white piece of paper. Simply place white paper on floor, place the buttstock of rifle on the edge if the paper on the center line of the stock vertically and from above look through the scope and line reticle up with edge of paper. as long as there is no cast in your stock this will line things up and give you a level reticle

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by chuck

Watch this in its entirety and then explain to the rest of us how little he knows.

https://youtu.be/Su1Vq-hc7MY

Perfect, thank you very much for posting that. If they won't believe David Tubb not a lot more a guy can do.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I use the Wheeler Levels as well. Another good tool to have is a Borescope with a grid, like the the Bushnell Borescope Pro model. With it, once everything is level and aligned, you can adjust your cross-hairs to the bore verticle and horizontal as well, not to mention that it will usually get your first shot POI on paper. .

that should be boresighter .. not borescope. Sorry