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  #91  
Old 12-03-2018, 10:14 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Pretty enlightening wouldn’t you agree?

There was a few who didn’t think a Creedmoor was a suitable deer cartridge let alone a moose cartridge.

I was present for 3 moose kills this fall and 2 deer and one elk. Rifles used (in order) were a 300wsm (moose running at approximately 150yds on first shot hit in the liver, made it about 80yds before stopping, a follow up shot in the lungs dropped it, then a third shot was taken from point blank to dispatch animal. Second one was a moose in the hump at approximately 200yds with a 300 win mag, it dropped on the spot but required a finishing shot from point blank. Next was a moose in the hump at 393yds with a 260rem, dropped in its tracks and also required a follow up shot from point blank range. Then onto deer season, sons buck shot in the neck from about 160yds with a 270 win, buck down right in its tracks, required a follow up shot from point blank to dispatch. Next was an elk, shot in the hind quarter at a ranged 427yds with a 300 win mag, second shot was through the front shoulders dropping the elk, a third shot was taken from point blank to dispatch animal. Last one I was present for was a deer, not ranged but estimated at around 300 yards, 280ai first shot was in the boiler room, deer stopped but did not fall over, second shot again in the boiler room, deer still did not tip over, third shot in the antler because shooter thought shots were hitting low, deer was quartering away so antler was in line with vitals, deer decided to lay down, no further shots were required.

Moral of the story, most of the people I know shoot 300 magnums, but they don’t kill any faster than a 260, 270, or a 280 on moose, deer or elk at ranges of 0-500yds. My son has a late season draw for elk so I will update the story in January when my son kills his elk, see how it matches up with the elk kill I was present for.

2 moose and one deer I watched drop in their tracks this fall, only one was hit by a magnum and as luck would have it, all 3 required a follow up shot from point blank. The only animal out of the six which did not require a follow up shot from point blank was shot by a 280. I’m not gonna say the 280 is the best big game cartridge in the world but.....
But, none were shot with the CM.That's what all this crap is about.

I wonder if it would have done as well under the same circumstances.
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  #92  
Old 12-03-2018, 10:26 PM
roper1 roper1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Pretty enlightening wouldn’t you agree?

There was a few who didn’t think a Creedmoor was a suitable deer cartridge let alone a moose cartridge.

I was present for 3 moose kills this fall and 2 deer and one elk. Rifles used (in order) were a 300wsm (moose running at approximately 150yds on first shot hit in the liver, made it about 80yds before stopping, a follow up shot in the lungs dropped it, then a third shot was taken from point blank to dispatch animal. Second one was a moose in the hump at approximately 200yds with a 300 win mag, it dropped on the spot but required a finishing shot from point blank. Next was a moose in the hump at 393yds with a 260rem, dropped in its tracks and also required a follow up shot from point blank range. Then onto deer season, sons buck shot in the neck from about 160yds with a 270 win, buck down right in its tracks, required a follow up shot from point blank to dispatch. Next was an elk, shot in the hind quarter at a ranged 427yds with a 300 win mag, second shot was through the front shoulders dropping the elk, a third shot was taken from point blank to dispatch animal. Last one I was present for was a deer, not ranged but estimated at around 300 yards, 280ai first shot was in the boiler room, deer stopped but did not fall over, second shot again in the boiler room, deer still did not tip over, third shot in the antler because shooter thought shots were hitting low, deer was quartering away so antler was in line with vitals, deer decided to lay down, no further shots were required.

Moral of the story, most of the people I know shoot 300 magnums, but they don’t kill any faster than a 260, 270, or a 280 on moose, deer or elk at ranges of 0-500yds. My son has a late season draw for elk so I will update the story in January when my son kills his elk, see how it matches up with the elk kill I was present for.

2 moose and one deer I watched drop in their tracks this fall, only one was hit by a magnum and as luck would have it, all 3 required a follow up shot from point blank. The only animal out of the six which did not require a follow up shot from point blank was shot by a 280. I’m not gonna say the 280 is the best big game cartridge in the world but.....
The moral of the story I get Kurt, with the legendary capability & overwhelming popularity of the 6.5, you have 6 confirmed kills with anything but. The 6.5 shooters all miss, or shoot them in the ass or the antler ?
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  #93  
Old 12-03-2018, 10:31 PM
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But, none were shot with the CM.That's what all this crap is about.

I wonder if it would have done as well under the same circumstances.
I have no doubt it would, there ain’t enough difference between the creed and the 260 Rem to say one can kill better than the other. In all cases I was involved with the cartridge had nothing to do with the outcome, it was shot placement. 260 Rem, 270 win, 280ai, 300 wsm, and two 300 win mags, not one animal died of one shot, some took 2, some took 3, and whether it was a 30 cal magnum or a 264 cal pop gun, they all killed the animal... eventually.

I never got to shoot this year, I had one day of hunting, November 30th, and it never panned out for me. 19 does, 3 bucks during legal light while I was on stand, the big guy came out at 5:20pm and will hopefully make it through the winter.
  #94  
Old 12-03-2018, 10:47 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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The moral of the story I get Kurt, with the legendary capability & overwhelming popularity of the 6.5, you have 6 confirmed kills with anything but. The 6.5 shooters all miss, or shoot them in the ass or the antler ?
No, go back to moose #3, a 6.5 shooter (260 Rem) hit the moose in the hump at 393yds and dropped the moose on the spot, it did however require a follow up shot to dispatch from point blank. Also if you read about the elk, first shot with a 300 win mag was shot in the hind quarter, the 280 shooter shot an antler but I was there and can vouche it was because he was assuming he was hitting low because the deer didn’t fall over so he held high.

The only reason I piped up on these 6.5 threads it to try and dispel the false notion that you need a 30 cal or magnum to kill a North American ungulate. Out of 6 animals, 3 were shot with a 30cal magnum, and none of the three died any faster or deader than the three animals shot with non magnum, non 30cal cartridges. My findings this fall are exactly as I suspected they would be, and exactly what I’ve been trying to explain to the guys on the forum.

Unfortunately some don’t want to hear it, would rather try and tell me that a magnum is the answer, or a 30cal is the answer, try to tell me a 6.5 Creedmoor is an inadequate big game cartridge, or that a 280 isn’t the best cartridge known to man.....
  #95  
Old 12-03-2018, 11:07 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm View Post
With the Hornady bullets listed by the op, the 147 grain CM is about 175 yards and the 200 grain 300 win mag chart maxed out at 500 yards and was still at 2066 ft lbs
I forgot how important energy was, how could I have forgotten?🤦
  #96  
Old 12-03-2018, 11:44 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
http://www.fredbear-online.com/POD/Momentum.pdf

Suggest you read ALL of this first if you plan on responding


Great read! Confirms everything, not sure where you’re headed with this?

As I said elsewhere, there is an exponential factor in penetration, the faster you hit something the faster it slows down in proportions far greater than the difference in velocity, momentum etc. Heavier arrow with same momentum will be going slower than lighter arrow with same momentum. So the lighter arrow doesn’t go as deep because it was met with 7x the resistance due to added velocity.

My terminology for same thing is...faster you hit it faster it stops, slower you hit it slower it stops.

So same arrow momentum went deeper with heavier arrow. Same momentum means same energy, or same bow or same cartidge two different bullet weights. The heavier one goes deeper even though slower...because it’s met with less resistance AND it’s heavier for same frontal area...higher sd. And since we talk about impact velocities same that rules out momentum as a useless figure. Over and over proven that something like a 6.5 Swede with 160’s and approx. .33 sd will out penetrate just about everything else with much higher momentum figures. Because momentum doesn’t mean anything. The is a threshold and efficiency in high sd bullets at certain velocity ranges that work beyond expectation or even belief. We covered this before, momentum isn’t a factor you can count on. It’s there but it doesn’t matter, that’s all it’s got. When those two arrows from same bow and the slower heavier one goes deeper, it does so because it’s higher sd. End of story...for the twelfth time.
  #97  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:11 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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[QUOTE=Stinky Coyote;3884974]Great read! Confirms everything, not sure where you’re headed with this?

As I said elsewhere, there is an exponential factor in penetration, the faster you hit something the faster it slows down in proportions far greater than the difference in velocity, momentum etc. Heavier arrow with same momentum will be going slower than lighter arrow with same momentum. So the lighter arrow doesn’t go as deep because it was met with 7x the resistance due to added velocity.

My terminology for same thing is...faster you hit it faster it stops, slower you hit it slower it stops.

So same arrow momentum went deeper with heavier arrow. Same momentum means same energy, or same bow or same cartidge two different bullet weights. The heavier one goes deeper even though slower...because it’s met with less resistance AND it’s heavier for same frontal area...higher sd. And since we talk about impact velocities same that rules out momentum as a useless figure. Over and over proven that something like a 6.5 Swede with 160’s and approx. .33 sd will out penetrate just about everything else with much higher momentum figures. Because momentum doesn’t mean anything. The is a threshold and efficiency in high sd bullets at certain velocity ranges that work beyond expectation or even belief. We covered this before, momentum isn’t a factor you can count on. It’s there but it doesn’t matter, that’s all it’s got. When those two arrows from same bow and the slower heavier one goes deeper, it does so because it’s higher sd. End of story...for the twelfth time.[/QUOTE

It's your game. You make the rules, use your terminology and your interpretations.
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  #98  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Simply perspective, different way to see why. People have a hard time getting over long stigmatized names or figures that don’t matter like they thought etc. Percentages show how little difference things that people think are big differences really are and how big the differences are that really matter on the trigger side of the equation.
What you are seeing, and saying and what you understand are three different things.Give it a rest !
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  #99  
Old 12-04-2018, 05:29 AM
Xbolt7mm Xbolt7mm is offline
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
And just to provide context and a different way for people to view things...

6.5 cm 147 gr vs 300 win mag 200 gr
Factory Hornady Loads
Exact same penetration (sd.301)

6.5 cm has 55.4% less recoil
6.5 cm has 26.5% less bullet weight
6.5 cm has 5.4% less velocity

That is a shat ton less recoil energy giving up very little everywhere else that matters. Basically maintain same velocities at same distances all the way out.

This is the magic of of the 6.5’s...

The Grendel 123 gr does this to the 308 168 gr, almost identically the above.

The PRC 147 does this to the 338 Lapua 250 gr. Not as close as the two examples above but still so close as to compare.

Maybe this helps big picture the actual real world differences better? And show why it’s not hype and marketing.
Energy seems to be a missing factor in all your stats, convenient as its the major difference between the two. You state “basically maintain the same velocities all the way out”, but next to no energy seems to be forgotten in your quoting of data. The 300 has the same energy at 500 yards that the 6.5 has at less than 175 yards. “Maybe this helps big picture the actual real world differences better” and show why its all hype and marketing with your comparison. You reached too far by comparing the 6.5 to the 300. The 6.5 is a shinning star when its compared to rounds in its class which is deer sized cartridges but loses vast credibility when its compared out of its class for hunting as most of the rest of your posts on this thread are doing. I’m sure its more than capable as a gong whacker as are a large variety or cartridges and calibers where the major factor is the shooters knowledge of bullet drop, equipment and wind reading and less about the actual cartridge ( to a reasonable degree)

Last edited by Xbolt7mm; 12-04-2018 at 05:43 AM.
  #100  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:00 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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No, go back to moose #3, a 6.5 shooter (260 Rem) hit the moose in the hump at 393yds and dropped the moose on the spot, it did however require a follow up shot to dispatch from point blank. Also if you read about the elk, first shot with a 300 win mag was shot in the hind quarter, the 280 shooter shot an antler but I was there and can vouche it was because he was assuming he was hitting low because the deer didn’t fall over so he held high.

The only reason I piped up on these 6.5 threads it to try and dispel the false notion that you need a 30 cal or magnum to kill a North American ungulate. Out of 6 animals, 3 were shot with a 30cal magnum, and none of the three died any faster or deader than the three animals shot with non magnum, non 30cal cartridges. My findings this fall are exactly as I suspected they would be, and exactly what I’ve been trying to explain to the guys on the forum.

Unfortunately some don’t want to hear it, would rather try and tell me that a magnum is the answer, or a 30cal is the answer, try to tell me a 6.5 Creedmoor is an inadequate big game cartridge, or that a 280 isn’t the best cartridge known to man.....
I have yet to see where anyone has said that “ you need” a magnum or a 30 cal to kill a North American ungulate.
  #101  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:36 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm View Post
Energy seems to be a missing factor in all your stats
It’s missing for a reason, it’s largely irrelevant. Show me how it matters? The energy that does really matter is noted though.

I didn’t just choose to put the 6.5 cm against the 300 wm, when the comparison was done that’s just what matches up.

It’s almost as if the Grendel and CM were designed from the ground up to duplicate those two popular 30 cals in all areas except less than half the recoil. And actually for those two 30 cals to compete they have to run higher than normal bullet weights to do it. 168/200 gr vs 123/147.
  #102  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:37 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Great read! Confirms everything, not sure where you’re headed with this?

As I said elsewhere, there is an exponential factor in penetration, the faster you hit something the faster it slows down in proportions far greater than the difference in velocity, momentum etc. Heavier arrow with same momentum will be going slower than lighter arrow with same momentum. So the lighter arrow doesn’t go as deep because it was met with 7x the resistance due to added velocity.

My terminology for same thing is...faster you hit it faster it stops, slower you hit it slower it stops.

So same arrow momentum went deeper with heavier arrow. Same momentum means same energy, or same bow or same cartidge two different bullet weights. The heavier one goes deeper even though slower...because it’s met with less resistance AND it’s heavier for same frontal area...higher sd. And since we talk about impact velocities same that rules out momentum as a useless figure. Over and over proven that something like a 6.5 Swede with 160’s and approx. .33 sd will out penetrate just about everything else with much higher momentum figures. Because momentum doesn’t mean anything. The is a threshold and efficiency in high sd bullets at certain velocity ranges that work beyond expectation or even belief. We covered this before, momentum isn’t a factor you can count on. It’s there but it doesn’t matter, that’s all it’s got. When those two arrows from same bow and the slower heavier one goes deeper, it does so because it’s higher sd. End of story...for the twelfth time.
One factor has yet to be mentions, that being, that in some cases, a higher impact velocity can actually result in a smaller frontal area, which results in more penetration, but a smaller wound channel. I have seen cases where the jacket folds back tight against the shank, instead of creating a large mushroom. This results in a higher S.D. as the bullet passes through the animal. I have seen this using the 257wby, 7mmstw, and the 300rum. This is just one more reason why you can't use numbers to accurately predict penetration.

The simple fact is, that a person could use pretty much any cartridge with a bullet from .264" on up to successfully harvest moose, elk and deer in almost any situation. I have owned cartridges up to the 375H&H, but these days I don't own a cartridge using bullets larger than .284" . My go to cartridge is still the 7mmstw as it has been for nearly 30 years, but that is more about having used that cartridge or so long, and being so familiar with the ballistics , than it is about needing a magnum cartridge to hunt the game that I hunt.

As to these silly comparison threads, what is next, a 6.5x300wby vs 50bmg thread? These threads are about as foolish as the threads where people found it necessary to post silly drawings to try and prove why their favorite cartridge is superior. I had to laugh when drawings for wildcat cartridges that are not even standardized, were being used to demonstrate why one cartridge provides a better seating depth for a given bullet, than another cartridge. And then the poster ignored the larger case capacity that one cartridge offered, which enabled it to produce more velocity at the same pressure level.

The bottom line is that drawing and numbers are just that, they can't accurately predict how a cartridge will perform on game, or even on paper at times. And with today's bullets, S.D. of unfired bullets really doesn't mean a great deal when predicting performance on game.
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  #103  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:40 AM
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  #104  
Old 12-04-2018, 07:02 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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I have yet to see where anyone has said that “ you need” a magnum or a 30 cal to kill a North American ungulate.

Marky Mark said you need one to get a bang flop. Said he doesn’t like tracking. I tried explaining its shot placement that is responsible for bang flop, not headstamp. Several people have said a magnum works better or a 30 cal works better, I said under normal Hunting ranges it doesn’t matter, that bullet construction has more to do with it.

You can pick apart my point all you want, if you can’t understand what I’ve been saying by now it’s highly doubtful it’ll ever sink in. Obviously there are advantages to magnums, especially at long range, but there are also advantages to the smaller cartridges as well, like barrel life, recoil, and weight.

You’ve been on the other side of this since day one, said it a “needmore” now after hunting season we can compare results. The proof is in the pudding, you just don’t want to see it. We can compare results again next year after season, see if the results change by then? I’ve been seeing the exact same results year after year, I highly doubt they’ll change. (A 260rem and Creedmoor are pretty much ballistic twins)

I said use a cartridge within its range, pick a proper bullet, and shot placement is key. That’s it, only I probably used s few more words.

Then there is the 6.5’s and their ballistic coefficient advantages for retaining energy down range, which is part of what reinforces the Creedmoor’s ability to penetrate at longer distances, that’s the math Stinky’s been posting. I happen to understand the math and can’t argue against it. Combine that with modern bullet construction and it gives you the ability to use the smaller cartridges with good results.

You must have been on a few hunts this year, probably seen a few critters taken? Were the results any different than mine?
  #105  
Old 12-04-2018, 07:12 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Marky Mark said you need one to get a bang flop. Said he doesn’t like tracking. I tried explaining its shot placement that is responsible for bang flop, not headstamp. Several people have said a magnum works better or a 30 cal works better, I said under normal Hunting ranges it doesn’t matter, that bullet construction has more to do with it.

You can pick apart my point all you want, if you can’t understand what I’ve been saying by now it’s highly doubtful it’ll ever sink in. Obviously there are advantages to magnums, especially at long range, but there are also advantages to the smaller cartridges as well, like barrel life, recoil, and weight.

You’ve been on the other side of this since day one, said it a “needmore” now after hunting season we can compare results. The proof is in the pudding, you just don’t want to see it. We can compare results again next year after season, see if the results change by then? I’ve been seeing the exact same results year after year, I highly doubt they’ll change. (A 260rem and Creedmoor are pretty much ballistic twins)

I said use a cartridge within its range, pick a proper bullet, and shot placement is key. That’s it, only I probably used s few more words.

Then there is the 6.5’s and their ballistic coefficient advantages for retaining energy down range, which is part of what reinforces the Creedmoor’s ability to penetrate at longer distances, that’s the math Stinky’s been posting. I happen to understand the math and can’t argue against it. Combine that with modern bullet construction and it gives you the ability to use the smaller cartridges with good results.

You must have been on a few hunts this year, probably seen a few critters taken? Were the results any different than mine?
Absolutely shot placement and bullet construction are key. I will not dispute that nor will I dispute that every chambering has a effective range. As far as rifle weight action length that is all subjective to the users preference.

Work got in the way this year and only hunted about 5 days. Seen 2 antelope taken with a 257 wby and a coyote with 26 nosler. All 3 were bang flops.
  #106  
Old 12-04-2018, 07:35 AM
jeprli jeprli is offline
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I've shot 2 animals this year with a 257 wby. Wt buck was shot quartering away, broke 4 ribs, bullet tumbled through heart and lungs and came out sideways through opposite shoulder, ran 30 yards and came down. Absolute mess. I shoot a moose calf in the back of the head, DRT. All the meat and organs intact.

Both were shot with 100ttsx traveling some 3500ft/s and 3000ft/lbs of energy. One animal at 160lbs the other closer to 400-450lbs. shots were taken at 60-75 yards.
  #107  
Old 12-04-2018, 07:37 AM
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Thumbs up Cool story Bro

There is an historical reason why the 6.5's were never well received by North American shooters or manufacturers: the 6.5x50SR Arisaka and the 6.5 Carcano were used against the Allies during the war, while the 6.5x55 Swede garnered a reputation as a poor hunting caliber in North America due to the lack of quality ammunition for the first few decades of its' introduction; turns out that shooting big game with military hardball doesn't work so well.
While the 6.5 is a fine caliber with impressive numbers, it has been resurrected with clever marketing designed to sell the latest "new & shiny" to people who just have to have the newest and shiniest.
Your posts remind me of the magazine articles written by people selling the latest new & shiny throughout the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's. Hence the skepticism by members who have BTDT multiple times over the years.
Carry on.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6.5 Creedmoor r.jpg (46.8 KB, 31 views)
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  #108  
Old 12-04-2018, 07:40 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Is it spring time yet.

Yuppers, come to the forum with an idea of acceptance, then strive for inclusion.

Not 1 thread,,, but lots of them that went to the way-side like this one SC.

One would think that your idea of teaching people has run its course my friend.

You even stated on another thread that such and such are good rifles,,, then you attempt to distance your self from the pack because your numbers tell you so.

Give it a rest my friend, your not winning any friends on this forum acting like a know it all.

Good luck teaching us all your wisdom when you've drawn lines of separation between others and your self.

One would think that this is the best practic to educate friends that are on this forum to share in the good times of "ALL" as we allow our fellow brothers and sisters to choose what best works for them.

Don't think for one minute that your the only person on the planet that has access to all the numbers and math.

It's no wonder that people just look at a gun and buy it to go hunting, big waist of time spent babbling like a broken record over and over day in and day out.

Take a breath and relax SC.

A wize friend on this site suggested that it might be wize for me to "Not" be that Guy,,, Ha. Let's say that this was the wake up call I needed.

Better to include then place lines of separation on all social media sites and in public.

I don't know this for sure,,, but I get the drift of it.
  #109  
Old 12-04-2018, 08:34 AM
Beeman3 Beeman3 is offline
 
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Again I am not knocking 6.5's. I like them and have three. Got two 6.5X47's and a 6.5 Sherman. But for knock down power in my real world experience there is no comparison when I shoot something with a 6.5 130 gr as compared to a 215 gr 30 cal, the wound channel is larger with a lot more damage with the 30 cal. Maybe I am looking at this wrong but to me Energy Ft-lbs at the target is important. Here are some more numbers from my guns:
6.5X47 shooting a 130 Berger at 2950 fps MV
2001.1 ft-lbs of energy at 200 yds
658.8 ft-lbs of energy at 1000 yds

300 Win Mag shooting a 215 Berger at 3000 fps MV
3531.5 ft-lbs at 200 yds
2047.0 ft-lbs at 750 yds
1508.2 ft-lbs at 1000 yds
IF energy is not important please explain to me. I'd rather get hit by a tennis ball than a car. These are real world numbers with my loads I use out of my SHOOTER program. Drops confirmed out to 910 yds. I really like the lower recoil of the smaller guns but for knock down power I know which one I will choose. Any animal is going to die with a well placed shot. But everything has an effective range. The 6.5's just won't run with the 30 cal WAY out there.
  #110  
Old 12-04-2018, 09:21 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by urban rednek View Post
There is an historical reason why the 6.5's were never well received by North American shooters or manufacturers: the 6.5x50SR Arisaka and the 6.5 Carcano were used against the Allies during the war, while the 6.5x55 Swede garnered a reputation as a poor hunting caliber in North America due to the lack of quality ammunition for the first few decades of its' introduction; turns out that shooting big game with military hardball doesn't work so well.
While the 6.5 is a fine caliber with impressive numbers, it has been resurrected with clever marketing designed to sell the latest "new & shiny" to people who just have to have the newest and shiniest.
Your posts remind me of the magazine articles written by people selling the latest new & shiny throughout the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's. Hence the skepticism by members who have BTDT multiple times over the years.
Carry on.
If you think the Creedmoor is nothing more than a new shiny then it’s obvious you read too many memes and not enough technical information behind the design.

The ability to shoot heavy for caliber projectiles, rifles spec’d for proper throat and twist, and a 30 degree shoulder are all part of which sets its design aside from most other cartridges. Once you understand the purpose behind the design you’ll understand there is more to the Creedmoor than just a marketing scheme. Subtle differences that give it a slight advantage over other cartridges in its class make it a good choice when buying a new rifle in my opinion.

Suggesting it’s nothing more than a shiny marketing scheme to sell an old product just tells me you haven’t researched its design. There sure seems to be a lot of resentment, especially from the older guys against the Creedmoor. It’s touted as a better design because it is a better design, but that’s nothing to get offended by.

I’m a big Parker Ackley fan, that probably explains my initial interest in the Creedmoor. I see value in slight advantages, others don’t and that’s fine by me.
  #111  
Old 12-04-2018, 09:55 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Rather than comparing 6.5cm to 300wm what about a real world comparison of a 6.5 cm vs 26 nosler? Same bullet, max book velocity. Which will penetrate further?
  #112  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:07 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Norwest Alta View Post
Rather than comparing 6.5cm to 300wm what about a real world comparison of a 6.5 cm vs 26 nosler? Same bullet, max book velocity. Which will penetrate further?
While we’re at it, let’s add penetration required to impact vital organs to add practical requirements. How hard the bullet hits the dirt on the other side is an irrelevant factor. The Creedmoor is designed to be efficient not over bore.
  #113  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:11 AM
mattthegorby mattthegorby is offline
 
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I usually don’t contribute to threads like this because I really don’t appreciate 13 year olds flapping there mouth and confusion what I said with what they believe.
But I will contribute.
I have shot the 260 Rem (not the CM) long enough to see the benefits of it, I have also had my fair share of flings with various magnums to also realize there benefits as well. I’m not a long range hunter so all this really means nothing to me, the difference of any of these rounds to 300 yards isn’t much. I’m old and not much of a magnum guy anymore.
I also think the relation between SD & penetration means absolutely nothing with today’s bullets.
Sometimes, most of you are saying the same thing but in different themes, and argue about it. Makes me laugh.
I enjoy these threads and all the regulars, but don't post much because I am an absolute beginner with one centrefire rifle. That being said, I suspect many are being deliberately obtuse because they enjoy the argument.

A quick search of a bazillion youtube videos of guys shooting metal plates, cinder blocks, and ballistic gel shows both the relative efficiency of 6.5's and the powerful punch of larger calibers... the argument really is not about which is better, but which is a good choice for a specific individual in a specific circumstance.

I look forward to more of these threads as I have learned a great deal looking into what all these experienced guys have to say... though three new ones in a day is a bit much, lol.
  #114  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:26 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
While we’re at it, let’s add penetration required to impact vital organs to add practical requirements. How hard the bullet hits the dirt on the other side is an irrelevant factor. The Creedmoor is designed to be efficient not over bore.
Walking is more efficient then running a 1 ton but not very practicle is it but ok I'd like to know at what distance the 26 nosler will out penetrate a 6.5 cm?
Let's say 8" as a happy medium of hair, hide and muscle. Work for you Kurt?
  #115  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:40 AM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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I do find it odd to compare a match bullet to a hunting one. I highly doubt the two bullets compared would penetrate the same amount as one would expand and one wouldn't. Regardless if they penetrate the exact amount then energy is the determining factor. A 300 would exhibit 35-40% more energy into the animal for the exact same penetration from 0-500 yards. Also the wound channel would be 22% larger assuming the diameter doubled for both which they wouldn't. Just because a bullet penetrates doesn't mean it is going to kill efficiently. Energy is wasted if the bullet goes completely through the animal.
  #116  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:03 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I do find it odd to compare a match bullet to a hunting one. I highly doubt the two bullets compared would penetrate the same amount as one would expand and one wouldn't. Regardless if they penetrate the exact amount then energy is the determining factor. A 300 would exhibit 35-40% more energy into the animal for the exact same penetration from 0-500 yards. Also the wound channel would be 22% larger assuming the diameter doubled for both which they wouldn't. Just because a bullet penetrates doesn't mean it is going to kill efficiently. Energy is wasted if the bullet goes completely through the animal.
If you think that energy is what kills a big game animal, then I question your understanding of how a bullet kills. Just as in archery, the main purpose of the projectile, is to cause a wound channel, so the animal bleeds out. The larger the wound channel, generally the quicker the animal bleeds out. And unlike an arrow, many bullets are capable of penetrating the largest bones to reach the vitals. This is where a larger, or tougher bullet does offer an advantage, because it will normally penetrate more bone to reach the vitals. As to a bullet that exits, vs one that stops in the animal, an exit wound can be an advantage, especially if you need to track an animal. As well, a bullet that normally exits on a lung shot, will generally penetrate more bone to reach the vitals.
The only exception to all of this would be impacts to the central nervous system, but the central nervous system is a small target, with a higher risk of not making a fatal hit.
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  #117  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:13 AM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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If you think that energy is what kills a big game animal, then I question your understanding of how a bullet kills. Just as in archery, the main purpose of the projectile, is to cause a wound channel, so the animal bleeds out. The larger the wound channel, generally the quicker the animal bleeds out. And unlike an arrow, many bullets are capable of penetrating the largest bones to reach the vitals. This is where a larger, or tougher bullet does offer an advantage, because it will normally penetrate more bone to reach the vitals. As to a bullet that exits, vs one that stops in the animal, an exit wound can be an advantage, especially if you need to track an animal. As well, a bullet that normally exits on a lung shot, will generally penetrate more bone to reach the vitals.
The only exception to all of this would be impacts to the central nervous system, but the central nervous system is a small target, with a higher risk of not making a fatal hit.
You think energy doesn't matter? That's like saying velocity doesn't matter. A deer isn't dying due to bleeding out on a bang flop. They are dying due to the energy being transferred to the wound channel.
  #118  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:14 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by Norwest Alta View Post
Walking is more efficient then running a 1 ton but not very practicle is it but ok I'd like to know at what distance the 26 nosler will out penetrate a 6.5 cm?
Let's say 8" as a happy medium of hair, hide and muscle. Work for you Kurt?
Are you serious? At what distance will a 26 Nosler out penetrate a 6.5 Creedmoor??? I think the obvious answer is at any distance.

In my opinion, where the Creedmoor becomes a bad choice is past the 400-600yd range depending on the animal you’re after and bullet selection of course.

I think a better question is at what distance will it mean the difference between a lethal or non lethal shot? I think the answer lies somewhere around most people’s maximum shooting capabilities, or in other words, I think the Creedmoor is capable of making a lethal shot on big game as far as 90% of hunters are capable of accurately shooting.

Keep in mind few hunters can shoot past 300yds accurately in field conditions (and that’s being generous), despite what they may believe. Trust me, I see it every single year and judging from these discussions there are a lot of guys who think the magnum will compensate for their marksmanship. The fact is, the magnum will only help if their marksmanship is as good as they think it is, which in most cases it is not.
  #119  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:32 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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You think energy doesn't matter? That's like saying velocity doesn't matter. A deer isn't dying due to bleeding out on a bang flop. They are dying due to the energy being transferred to the wound channel.
I have had bang flops, because the entire lung area was destroyed, so the effect was the same as having the wind knocked out of you, you drop instantly. The difference is that the blood pours out of the lungs, and the oxygen stops reaching the brain , and the animal dies very quickly.
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  #120  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:34 AM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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I will also add that a 300 has 33-36% more momentum.
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