.22 question

[pikergolf]

My Cz 452 will shoot CCI mini mags at 5/8 to 3/4 inch at 50 yds. Premium .22 ammo will shrink the group to 1/2 to 5/8. I prefer to shoot the mini mags because of the costs involved. At 100 yards my groups jump to 3.5 to 4 inches with the mini mags, haven't tried the premiums. My question is would going from hyper sonic to sub sonic be the cause of my groups opening up so much?

[elkhunter11]

That is quite possibly a huge factor. I get sub moa at 100 meters with SK Standard Plus, and RWS Championship Edition in my Cooper and Anschutz rifles. I bought the ammunition by the case, and paid around $500 for the SK and $550 for the RWS, but it has gone up to over $600 per case.

[bobtodrick]

The Minimags transition from supersonic to transonic at about 65m. It is at this point that they will wobble and your groups open up.
I've found that RWS Club and CCI SV (standard velocity) which are both subsonic give good results in our two Marlin XT-22's...about 1.5" at 100m, and both these are fairly inexpensive.
The other route to go is to stay supersonic past 100m. I've had good results with CCI Velocitors, which drop to subsonic at about 110yds...a great round for gopher hunting.

[pikergolf]

Thanks guys, I may try the SK premium rounds again.

[Ronan_357]

I found subsonics group better in my 452 at 100m but minimags were grouping fine around 1-1/2” or less

[Big Sky]

I'll add my nickles worth.

Shooting a 22 at 100 yds and farther is a challenge. Wind is a way bigger consideration than many will think. The drifts are large compared to centerfire.
This is definitely a consideration in southern AB. At one place I shoot the wind swirls due to trees and a hillside. Wind can come from the left one minute and from the right the next minute. Sometimes it even blows down as it swirls over the hill. It makes thing tricky and group size can be affected.

As to the SV vs HV ammo argument here's some things to consider

22 ammo does not behave the same way as centerfire ammo.

Here's the drift table for 6.5 creedmore (bottom) vs 6.5 Gr (top) off of the Federal site. The Creemore has more velocity. Both are using the same bullet. The higher velocity round drifts less, to no one's surprise.


Here's the drift table for 2 flavours of Federal 22 match ammo. The top listing is SV and the bottom one is HV. Note that the high velocity ammo drifts more. This is not what you might expect.


The conclusion is that SV ammo can help you to defeat the wind, especially for guys like me, who need all the help they can get.

IIRC there's tons of info about this on the big US site.

[Big Sky]

5 more cents worth.

HV ammo is affected negatively as it slows down to subsonic velocities. As others have stated, the bullet destabilizes and will veer off course in an unpredictable manner. Group size is affected.
The question is, how much is the bullet affected?

IIRC, I have read people say that the group size increases somewhere in the range of 1/2 to 1 inch in size. It could be more if you shoot ammo that your rifle does not like.

When I get home I can post a 50m and 100m target that was shot last week in good conditions. Mini mag round nose HV ammo. Decent accuracy.

[Big Sky]

5 more cents worth

Cheap ammo should not shoot as well as premium ammo. There may be exceptions with individual rifles, but in general I think that the more expensive the ammo is the better the accuracy will be. Keep in mind that the rifle is a limiting factor - the best ammo in the world is wasted on a crappy rifle.

IMO, cheaper ammo produces more fliers and the fliers seem to be more off target.

I shoot what I can afford and also produces decent results.
At 100yds, I get good (for me) results with SK Rifle match. For about half the price, I get reasonable results with Mini Mag Round Nose. It's a question of what do I value more, 1/2 inch of accuracy or $5 in my pocket.

To the OP; the Euro ammo should help, but I would consider some of the SV ammo from CCI and others. Lots of people like the CCI SV ammo. I liked the price, but my rifle was not that keen on it.

[Dick284]

What are you running for optics?
If you haven’t got a parallax adjustment, and 100 yds isn’t where your parallax is set for, you’ll be having a bit of a time getting groups at 100 yds.

Most non parallax adjustable ”rimfire” scopes have the parallax set for 50 yds.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Dick284

What are you running for optics?
If you haven’t got a parallax adjustment, and 100 yds isn’t where your parallax is set for, you’ll be having a bit of a time getting groups at 100 yds.

Most non parallax adjustable ”rimfire” scopes have the parallax set for 50 yds.

Yes my scope is set up for parallax adjustment. Checked it twice and then bobbed my head around, no moving cross hairs.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Yes my scope is set up for parallax adjustment. Checked it twice and then bobbed my head around, no moving cross hairs.

Well that’s ruled out.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

My Cz 452 will shoot CCI mini mags at 5/8 to 3/4 inch at 50 yds. Premium .22 ammo will shrink the group to 1/2 to 5/8. I prefer to shoot the mini mags because of the costs involved. At 100 yards my groups jump to 3.5 to 4 inches with the mini mags, haven't tried the premiums. My question is would going from hyper sonic to sub sonic be the cause of my groups opening up so much?

CZ 452 is not a competition rifle and CCI mini mags are not of the best quality if you are trying to group it at 100 yds .
Not sure what kind of Premium ammo you used but with something like Eley Tenex or comparable out of a good competition barrel you can expect sub moa groups in a no wind condition up to God knows how far .
Couple hundred yards for sure .
But sometimes ,if your rifle likes a particular load ,say Thunderbolt from the Remington ,the accuracy could be very nice also.
I have 2 CZ rifles and both like those cheap Rem ammo.
My competition rifle is fed with Eley
S12

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

My Cz 452 will shoot CCI mini mags at 5/8 to 3/4 inch at 50 yds. Premium .22 ammo will shrink the group to 1/2 to 5/8. I prefer to shoot the mini mags because of the costs involved. At 100 yards my groups jump to 3.5 to 4 inches with the mini mags, haven't tried the premiums. My question is would going from hyper sonic to sub sonic be the cause of my groups opening up so much?

I don’t have the answer ... but would guess there are a couple of things happening with the mini mags. First, the 3/4” groups at 50Yds seem about right but I wonder if they are starting to go a bit wobbly shortly thereafter (or maybe even a bit before)? Some barrels can be more finicky than others. There could be some disruption as the bullet transitions to subsonic but there is no reason for that to result in such a big dispersion over the next 50Yds (...otherwise, one would expect similar results with mini mags fired from other rifles/barrels).
I would give the bore a good cleaning and start fresh. I have noticed when changing from one “brand” to another, that it can take 10 -15 shots for the new ammo to perform its best (probably because it takes that many rounds to “replace” the old lube with the new).
Would be interesting to examine the shape of the bullet holes ...comparing targets shot at 25, 50, 75, and 100yds.

[Don_Parsons]

Howdy PG

If the ammo chart is correct, the Mini Mags are leaving the barrel at ruffly 1600 ft-per seconds, just bellow the speed of sound out at the 100 meter mark. 1137 ft if I recall for the sound barrier.

The 36gr MM might of dropped bellow that at 1050.

https://www.mcarbo.com/22LR-Ballistics-Chart

I noticed a big difference between 2 brands of Ammo I've been testing.

Standard Velocity Winchester Super-X T-22 solid 40gr Target at 1150 ft-per second from muzzle,,, and CCI 32gr Stinger HP @ 1640 ft-per seconds.

I have to check my scope alignment coming up.

I'm zeroed at 75 meters with the T22's, then when I switch to the Stingers, they are 3" high and 3" left.

The Stingers are leaving the muzzle much faster then the T-22's

The light weight Stingers are staying above the speed of sound to 110 meters before dropping bellow that line.

Once I dial in the Stingers to 75 meters, they stay on track to 150 to 175 meters.

My barrel is a right hand slow twist of 16/1,,, so it is in-line with using the shorter bullets.

The old fellow at our range "Suggested" that it is helpful to try the solid 40gr standard Velocity target ammo, if the water-line stays tight, then the rifle is most likely ok.
That way it rules out the 1137 speed of sound thing.

Good luck PG, keep us up todate on what you find out.

I'll chime in once I find out why the 32gr Stingers are pitching 3" left.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Howdy PG

If the ammo chart is correct, the Mini Mags are leaving the barrel at ruffly 1600 ft-per seconds, just bellow the speed of sound out at the 100 meter mark. 1137 ft if I recall for the sound barrier.

The 36gr MM might of dropped bellow that at 1050.

https://www.mcarbo.com/22LR-Ballistics-Chart

I noticed a big difference between 2 brands of Ammo I've been testing.

Standard Velocity Winchester Super-X T-22 solid 40gr Target at 1150 ft-per second from muzzle,,, and CCI 32gr Stinger HP @ 1640 ft-per seconds.

I have to check my scope alignment coming up.

I'm zeroed at 75 meters with the T22's, then when I switch to the Stingers, they are 3" high and 3" left.

The Stingers are leaving the muzzle much faster then the T-22's

The light weight Stingers are staying above the speed of sound to 110 meters before dropping bellow that line.

Once I dial in the Stingers to 75 meters, they stay on track to 150 to 175 meters.

My barrel is a right hand slow twist of 16/1,,, so it is in-line with using the shorter bullets.

The old fellow at our range "Suggested" that it is helpful to try the solid 40gr standard Velocity target ammo, if the water-line stays tight, then the rifle is most likely ok.
That way it rules out the 1137 speed of sound thing.

Good luck PG, keep us up todate on what you find out.

I'll chime in once I find out why the 32gr Stingers are pitching 3" left.

Your reading the chart wrong Minimags leave the barrel at 1235 ft/sec and by 50 yards have dropped to 1092. It's the Stingers that are 1600ft/sec So they are dropping subsonic right around 50yds https://www.cci-ammunition.com/produ...=1&loadNo=0030

[catnthehat]

Smallbore match Ammo is below the speed of sound fir s teason, when the bullet goes transonic it becomes very unstable, do the 22 match Ammo leaves the barrel already below the round barrier to hero it accurate out to 100 yards and beyond .
At one time we shot sanctioned SFC and NRA matches at 200 yards but I am not sure if we are even shooting at 100 anymore , been away from it fir too long
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Howdy PG

If the ammo chart is correct, the Mini Mags are leaving the barrel at ruffly 1600 ft-per seconds, just bellow the speed of sound out at the 100 meter mark. 1137 ft if I recall for the sound barrier.

The 36gr MM might of dropped bellow that at 1050.

https://www.mcarbo.com/22LR-Ballistics-Chart

I noticed a big difference between 2 brands of Ammo I've been testing.

Standard Velocity Winchester Super-X T-22 solid 40gr Target at 1150 ft-per second from muzzle,,, and CCI 32gr Stinger HP @ 1640 ft-per seconds.

I have to check my scope alignment coming up.

I'm zeroed at 75 meters with the T22's, then when I switch to the Stingers, they are 3" high and 3" left.

The Stingers are leaving the muzzle much faster then the T-22's

The light weight Stingers are staying above the speed of sound to 110 meters before dropping bellow that line.

Once I dial in the Stingers to 75 meters, they stay on track to 150 to 175 meters.

My barrel is a right hand slow twist of 16/1,,, so it is in-line with using the shorter bullets.

The old fellow at our range "Suggested" that it is helpful to try the solid 40gr standard Velocity target ammo, if the water-line stays tight, then the rifle is most likely ok.
That way it rules out the 1137 speed of sound thing.

Good luck PG, keep us up todate on what you find out.

I'll chime in once I find out why the 32gr Stingers are pitching 3" left.

You are confused again, the mini mags are not leaving the muzzle at anywhere near 1600fps. As to why the Stingers have an impact to the left of the other load, ,it's a simple case of barrel harmonics, nothing unusual.

[Don_Parsons]

Yes, my bad.

I ment to say the CCI 32gr Stinger are at 1640 is out of the muzzle.

And yes, the Mini Mags at 1235.

Apologies for that

[Don_Parsons]

I kind of see what's going on with the 2 brands of Ammo I'm using.

The Target T-22's are right at the edge of Subsonic 1126 ft-per second, my "guess" is that a few feet out of barrel it goes into Subsonic Flight,,, maybe this is why they shoot so nice. They leave the muzzle at 1150 from the 21" barrel

The 32gr Stingers at 1640 ft-per second drops into transonic once it slows down to ruffly 1350,,, this might have something to do with the 3" left.

I'll get it figured once I check the optic alimement. Ha

Been a long time since I've played with the rimfires.