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  #61  
Old 11-01-2017, 05:01 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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This is what some "pre-bad" stuff on primers can look like.




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  #62  
Old 11-01-2017, 06:06 PM
6.5x47 lapua 6.5x47 lapua is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
I am really not thinking of group shooting for long range shooting. I shoot 100 yard groups to confirm that the nodes, determined by the ladder tests, are going to shoot consistently under 1/2 MOA, at acceptable velocities and preferably with Low ES or SD. I then do what I believe is referred to as a "nodal tune" by going to smaller increments, trying different primers or seating depths.

However I believe that you are leaving the impression that Developing a Good Load, using this method, is not necessary as you can use a mechanical tuner to compensate. For most people developing loads to hunt to 600 yards this is adequate if they test the loads to that distance and find that they hold the 1/2 MOA group. I do believe that most people can learn what they are trying to accomplish if given proper guidance which is why I am posting the way I do it and further discussion is always welcome. If they become accomplished at finding a good load for their rifle and want to get into long range competition they will be ready for positive compensation tuning and may even do quite well going"bare".

I did a little more digging and found this information that suggests Nodal tuning can be quite effective to 500 yards+ especially if a tight group, with low ES is found. It may even be suggesting that it is a necessary first step?? I am learning and thank you for pointing the way.
I need to clarify testing at 500 yards. If you want a positive compensation tune, then you want a load that is sufficient to hold in at 500 yards and not be super tight in elevation terms because this is the approaching a middle distance of trajectory where compensation spreads are going to be greatest if you want the rifle to compensate at long range assuming you can identify the slow shots are going high.

If the group is super tight at 500 it may be compensating at that range and past that you enter a brief area of neutral compensation which drops off with greater elevation impact into negative compensation at long range.

If the tight group at 500 yards is a nodal tune it will remain tight if velocity has consistent low extreme spreads. But you run the risk of falling off the node should the atmosphere vary velocity.

I only use 500 yards to confirm 140 yard testing.

You may identify a starting point with incremental loads over a chronograph, plot these and prospect the flat spots in load development having done a primer test first with a safe pet load.


Here is an example of a load that I worked up in this way for one of my wildcats at 100 yards and the next increment above that opened up a bit.
[IMG][/IMG]

It did well at both 400 &500 Meters, except for horizontal dispersion due to wind. The first shot past 100yards is the one that nearly cut the center of the target and elevation was calculated using my Chrony results and RCBS load Exterior Ballistics Program with Berger's BC entered. The young fellow I sold the rifle and ammo to reported no trouble hitting to 950+ yards and even got a 4 1/"2 X 4 1/2" gong at that distance on the fifth shot. I believe that was with the holdovers I provided for the Zeiss conquest scope and shooting prone from a bipod for the first time. So yes a lot can be done, at 100 yards, to get most anyone started on the path to long range shooting even with a custom hunting rifle..

[IMG][/IMG]
When in all of my conversations did I ever say mechanical tuner?
This is pointless.
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  #63  
Old 11-01-2017, 06:43 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Just asking.

I'm wondering what ES is, I'll guess that SD is Sectional Density. I could be wrong on that one.

Awesome post my friend.

I never thought of fine tuning like that.

Don
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  #64  
Old 11-01-2017, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by huntingfamily View Post
Thanks for this. Interesting read,I'll have to give it a try.
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  #65  
Old 11-01-2017, 08:19 PM
Ryan.M.Anderson Ryan.M.Anderson is offline
 
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SD stands for standard deviation. 1 SD means that 68% of your shots fall within a certain spread. A load with a 2,700 FPS average and SD of 5 will have 68% of its shots from 2,695 to 2,705 FPS.

Primer flow happens for a lot of reasons. Nearly ever 700 I have seen has a little cratering. Shoot 6.5x47 or Lapua Creedmoor brass and tough primers are your friend, you will pierce primers at even moderate loads.
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  #66  
Old 11-01-2017, 08:41 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Got it, SD is Standard Deviation,,, and ES is ???
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  #67  
Old 11-01-2017, 09:01 PM
Ryan.M.Anderson Ryan.M.Anderson is offline
 
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Extrme spread, the difference between your fastest and slowest shots.
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  #68  
Old 11-01-2017, 09:30 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Thanks Ryan.

The artical is simply awesome. This is for sure on my first test.

Find that velocity and keep it the same.

Things are good when the moon and the stars aline.

Don

PS: The setting primers I have down pat.
My hand primer is a thumb primer since day one.

It doesn't take long to find the feeling of a well set primer, the trick that is working for me up to this point is keeping it consistant,,, every primer all the time.
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  #69  
Old 11-01-2017, 09:43 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
This is what some "pre-bad" stuff on primers can look like.




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That is exactly what you don’t want to see , the primer is still round at the outer diameter , but is cratering , this is not a good situation and should be corrected , when it’s right the primer will “ flow “ into the outer radius with and indent in the middle from the pin and zero flow at the pin ,
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  #70  
Old 11-02-2017, 10:03 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua View Post
When in all of my conversations did I ever say mechanical tuner?
This is pointless.
Well Bob I guess you haven't said much at all and left us trying to guess what you do different. The only thing that I have gotten from you is that you use some method,other than good load development at 100 yds, that was devised by long range shooters and that you now believe that a good load will not shoot past 100 yards or Long Range whatever that is? I have pointed out how I develop a good load, which is what this thread was about, and shown how it can work very well to 500 meters. If you are trying to establish that developing a good load using the ladder test and testing them for good groups at all ranges is a waste of time then your comments are certainly pointless.
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  #71  
Old 11-02-2017, 11:52 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
That is exactly what you don’t want to see , the primer is still round at the outer diameter , but is cratering , this is not a good situation and should be corrected , when it’s right the primer will “ flow “ into the outer radius with and indent in the middle from the pin and zero flow at the pin ,
The primer flow shown is indicative of an oversized firing pin hole and not indicative of high pressures as you have explained and can be fixed by bushing the hole or replacing the bolt with a custom one. Remingtons are noted for this but the flow is still caused by pressure as that problem will also disappear as pressures drop to Saami pressures just as PRE does.

The primer flow I am measuring is into the firing pin hole at the center of the primer and usually happens afterflow into the outer radius or "flattening". It can be caused by a weak firing pin spring but is most likely caused by the pressure getting to the point that the firing pin is pushed back as pressure builds. I know that my 20 caliber rifles do not have this problem as it does not show up until pressures get well above Saaami Pressures for the 222/223 cases and PRE reaches near max. My 20-223 EXTREME has allowed me to compare results with those on Factory 223 ammunition and they are the same. In all 20 cal rifles that I have done this with, including CZ, Remington and Sako, this flow, would get to about 0.008" before Rem 7 1/2 primers pierce and occasionally they blow as the primer pocket stretches by 0.007" which takes a whole lot of pressure. This will usually happen without the bolt handle seizing with these cartridges although it may get" clicky". I have found this true in other cartridges as well and have only had a problem due to intentionally pushing to the limit to try and find the Max chamber dimension at the datum, in these wildcats, as my measurements keep me in the "safe zone" which is much before the bolt gets stiff .
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  #72  
Old 11-02-2017, 12:46 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Iclund - no reason to think the firing pin hole has opened up on this BAT action. I am going to change brass and check over a chrony.
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  #73  
Old 11-02-2017, 12:47 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
The primer flow shown is indicative of an oversized firing pin hole and not indicative of high pressures as you have explained and can be fixed by bushing the hole or replacing the bolt with a custom one. Remingtons are noted for this but the flow is still caused by pressure as that problem will also disappear as pressures drop to Saami pressures just as PRE does.

The primer flow I am measuring is into the firing pin hole at the center of the primer and usually happens afterflow into the outer radius or "flattening". It can be caused by a weak firing pin spring but is most likely caused by the pressure getting to the point that the firing pin is pushed back as pressure builds. I know that my 20 caliber rifles do not have this problem as it does not show up until pressures get well above Saaami Pressures for the 222/223 cases and PRE reaches near max. My 20-223 EXTREME has allowed me to compare results with those on Factory 223 ammunition and they are the same. In all 20 cal rifles that I have done this with, including CZ, Remington and Sako, this flow, would get to about 0.008" before Rem 7 1/2 primers pierce and occasionally they blow as the primer pocket stretches by 0.007" which takes a whole lot of pressure. This will usually happen without the bolt handle seizing with these cartridges although it may get" clicky". I have found this true in other cartridges as well and have only had a problem due to intentionally pushing to the limit to try and find the Max chamber dimension at the datum, in these wildcats, as my measurements keep me in the "safe zone" which is much before the bolt gets stiff .
HW223: Of course you are right in that my results are for the scenarios that I have posted and vary from cartridge to cartridge and component to component. However the same principals apply unless you go to custom actions that have much closer tolerances and perhaps stronger firing pins. In that case the pressures will be higher before they show up on the primers and velocity spikes will likely be the most accurate way of staying in the "safe" zone followed by PRE. Brass does vary in how much it will resist PRE expansion and there is quite a difference in PRDiameter between new brass which has to be taken into consideration. Contrary to what most believe the larger base and thicker neck dimensions on 223/222 LapuaM brass does not make them resist pressures more than Lake City, Winchester, Hornady or even Remington or Norma for that matter. I know this as I have run the 55 Berger to over 3330+ fps, in both brass , with the same components (IMR 8208 & CCI 450 primers), and the Winchester brass will hold a primer while the Lapua will not. However this would not have happened if I had stuck to my pressure limits as indicated by primer flow as PRE was not reliable due to an oversize chamber at the base datum. I have since found the right combination using Varget that gets me safely to just over 3200 fps and targets show a potential "good load".
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  #74  
Old 11-02-2017, 01:17 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Iclund - no reason to think the firing pin hole has opened up on this BAT action. I am going to change brass and check over a chrony.
Looking more closely at the picture it could be possible that the pressure, on the primer, was not enough to push it back against the bolt face. This would allow the primer to flow around the firing pin by roughly as much as the primer was seated into the pocket. You could check this by measuring the primers seating depth near the rounded outside diameter with your calipers. Where it has flowed out would likely be 0.000" seat depth. Normally primers seat 0.005" into a properly uniformed primer pocket.

I don't think changing brass will help unless the primer pockets are larger which may allow primers to move back more freely. The most likely cause of this is that the Batt action has a stronger firing pin than necessary for the pressure you are running. This does not mean that the pressures are not fairly high as low pressures are usually indicated by a cratered primer. Measuring the 0.200" base datum with a micrometer, looking for the largest reading, on a new case and comparing it to a fired one may give you an indication of low pressure but the chronograph reading against a known pressure load would be the best.

Let us know how what you find.
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  #75  
Old 11-02-2017, 03:53 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
Looking more closely at the picture it could be possible that the pressure, on the primer, was not enough to push it back against the bolt face. This would allow the primer to flow around the firing pin by roughly as much as the primer was seated into the pocket. You could check this by measuring the primers seating depth near the rounded outside diameter with your calipers. Where it has flowed out would likely be 0.000" seat depth. Normally primers seat 0.005" into a properly uniformed primer pocket.

I don't think changing brass will help unless the primer pockets are larger which may allow primers to move back more freely. The most likely cause of this is that the Batt action has a stronger firing pin than necessary for the pressure you are running. This does not mean that the pressures are not fairly high as low pressures are usually indicated by a cratered primer. Measuring the 0.200" base datum with a micrometer, looking for the largest reading, on a new case and comparing it to a fired one may give you an indication of low pressure but the chronograph reading against a known pressure load would be the best.

Let us know how what you find.
260 Rem: After posting this I got to thinking that this could be caused by a heavy firing pin in a situation where you are using new brass, or brass that is not fireformed. In that case the donut on the primer would be protruding past the brass at the base like in the case of a weak firing pin and measurable the same way. I took a look at the picture with the brass in the calipers, which I should have done before, as it clearly shows that this is happening. Going to a thinner/softer shouldered brass may help but likely not unless it has less Headspace. In cases with very little taper, like the BR's, bolt thrust is much less than in more tapered ones and the firing pin is likely holding the case forward and the brass is forming to the chamber walls further stopping it from moving back to the boltface. This would result in the brass not fully fireforming and leaving the excess HS that allows the primer to flow around the firing pin. Perhaps you can try to fireform this brass by reducing the charge a bit and do a full jamb into the lands which may hold it back on the boltface?? However this is not really a pressure problem and perhaps just repeat firings will do the trick. However I may be totally out to lunch on this as well as I have never encountered this before.
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  #76  
Old 11-02-2017, 04:36 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Iclund - The brass had been fired 10X...and the 6 Dasher operates at a fairly high pressure. My accuracy load for that particular bullet (Berger 95gr Classic Hunter) is 2970 fps. I have loaded a different batch of brass, with 0.5 gr powder less and will give it a go over a chrony tomorrow.
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  #77  
Old 11-02-2017, 07:11 PM
Ryan.M.Anderson Ryan.M.Anderson is offline
 
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There is an awful lot of concern over a little bit of primer flow.

Very are very few things in the gun community that will start a debate like reloading techniques.

I shoot an AI AX and these guns are known (as are all AIs) to have very strong firing pins and a lot of firing pin protrusion to ensure they will fire pretty much anything. When I started shooting my 6.5X47 I would have big primer flow and even had a couple of blanked primers. I switched from CCI 400s to CCI BR4s and the problem went away. The BR4s cups are 0.005" thicker than the 400s. Wolf primers are even harder. The same thing happened when the Lapua 6.5 Creed small primer brass came out, a lot of guys had to switch to Rem 7.5s/BR4s as well.
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  #78  
Old 11-02-2017, 11:01 PM
6.5x47 lapua 6.5x47 lapua is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
Well Bob I guess you haven't said much at all and left us trying to guess what you do different. The only thing that I have gotten from you is that you use some method,other than good load development at 100 yds, that was devised by long range shooters and that you now believe that a good load will not shoot past 100 yards or Long Range whatever that is? I have pointed out how I develop a good load, which is what this thread was about, and shown how it can work very well to 500 meters. If you are trying to establish that developing a good load using the ladder test and testing them for good groups at all ranges is a waste of time then your comments are certainly pointless.
No this thread is about Don not understanding what I have explained to him about load development for long range shooting. 500 meters is not long range for him. Your load development will be quite useless for him unless he gets lucky. Which rarely happens. You seem to think you have a handle on this better than us. That’s fine but I can guarantee failure for you if you stretch out to true long distance. And no I am not going to spend 4 hours typing in a blueprint to successfull load development at distance just so you can pretend to correct me or twist my words into what you see fit.
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  #79  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:12 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua View Post
No this thread is about Don not understanding what I have explained to him about load development for long range shooting. 500 meters is not long range for him. Your load development will be quite useless for him unless he gets lucky. Which rarely happens. You seem to think you have a handle on this better than us. That’s fine but I can guarantee failure for you if you stretch out to true long distance. And no I am not going to spend 4 hours typing in a blueprint to successfull load development at distance just so you can pretend to correct me or twist my words into what you see fit.
I am sorry that I misunderstood what Don started this thread to discuss but it was entitled "Finding the Accurate Load". I perhaps misunderstood some of the comments you made about shooting groups as I have had considerable success although, as I pointed out to 500 meters. In any event I believe that Don has gotten quite a bit out of this thread and the information will certainly help him, and others, better understand load development.

You accuse me of seeming to think that I have a better handle on this than us, who I assume to be long range shooters, which is not true at all. Neither is your accusation that I would pretend to correct you or twist your words into what I see fit. I had hoped that you would give us some insight into what you are doing differently so that we, including Don, may learn and become better in the event that we decide to take up longer range shooting be it competitive or just for hunting purposes.
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  #80  
Old 11-03-2017, 12:39 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Downright nasty for shooting groups today ... -15C so I cut right to the chase and shot a group with some 4X fired brass loaded to my accuracy sweet spot for other 6 Dashers. Voila' no cratering, no stiff bolt, nice rounded corners on the primer. Thanks to HW223 for suggesting it could be a brass issue, rather than over pressure.
He is right.
I would be interested to know theories why the cratering occurred with the 10X fired brass.
No chrony today...too cold.

.



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  #81  
Old 11-03-2017, 04:42 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Downright nasty for shooting groups today ... -15C so I cut right to the chase and shot a group with some 4X fired brass loaded to my accuracy sweet spot for other 6 Dashers. Voila' no cratering, no stiff bolt, nice rounded corners on the primer. Thanks to HW223 for suggesting it could be a brass issue, rather than over pressure.
He is right.
I would be interested to know theories why the cratering occurred with the 10X fired brass.
No chrony today...too cold.

.


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Nothing wrong with that group especially considering the conditions. If you were running 2970, or less, with the Berger 95 and 4166 you are likely not running high pressures at all.

I too would like to figure out why you got that cratering as it was not indicative of high pressures. In order to be certain that it was just the different brass that led to todays results you would have had to fire one of each under todays conditions as the pressure could have been down.

It appears that in todays result that the primer was pushed back and flattened against a very true boltface with no indentation, like a Rem 700, that would allow a donut to form as it did on your first picture. In the picture with the calipers it appears that this donut is protruding past the base of the brass and flowing around the firing pin and not flattening on the boltface and flowing toward the outer diameter. If that is the case then the only way that could happen is if the brass was not completely head spaced between the boltface and shoulder. Did you FL size this brass or size it with a shoulder bump die?
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  #82  
Old 11-03-2017, 06:03 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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FL sized. Yes, pressure should be down from “normal” Dasher pressures. Before “discovering” the consistency of the 95gr Classic Hunter, I was running the same volume of powder with 105 VLD’s. I will use a Dasher for deer this year (not this barrel as it is too heavy with a 0.67 MD.
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  #83  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:49 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Sure glad the thread got underway.

I just got schooled from one of our fellow brothers.

Deffinatly an eye opener coming up,,, full attention to """one idea""" when I see it done first hand.

Don't know what path it will take me on,,, but I'm pretty sure it's a wize proven route used by those around the globe.

Listening and learning is key.

Don
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  #84  
Old 11-04-2017, 11:16 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
FL sized. Yes, pressure should be down from “normal” Dasher pressures. Before “discovering” the consistency of the 95gr Classic Hunter, I was running the same volume of powder with 105 VLD’s. I will use a Dasher for deer this year (not this barrel as it is too heavy with a 0.67 MD.
Should do the trick from what I see and the deer surly will not suffer if you do your part. As I suspected you are running a bit more HS than necessary unless the brass is getting work hardened and shoulders are springing back unevenly. You will get an accurate measurement of the excess, or uneven HS by measuring primer flow or protrusion as I have outlined earlier. As well the pressures you are running with this load are not enough to force the primers, and firing pin back enough to flatten normally as in your last picture. That primer likely looked like the first one before slamming into the bolt face. In any event you will not have any problem with this load and primers will look more normal should you decide to run a bit more powder to try and find a higher accuracy node. In that case you may be able to use primer protrusion, as I do, to determine where to stop before primers pierce but primer flattening may be a better indicator of pressure. However it would not appear that that is necessary or even desirable.

You would likely not see this in a non custom action as firing pin spring tension would be less as would be firing pin/ bolt tolerances. Keep your bolt and firing pin clean and lubricated with G 96 to keep it from getting gummy and you will have no problems.

Last edited by lclund1946; 11-04-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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  #85  
Old 11-04-2017, 12:04 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Sure glad the thread got underway.

I just got schooled from one of our fellow brothers.

Deffinatly an eye opener coming up,,, full attention to """one idea""" when I see it done first hand.

Don't know what path it will take me on,,, but I'm pretty sure it's a wize proven route used by those around the globe.

Listening and learning is key.

Don
Glad that you started this thread Don as there are are so many things to learn, in this hobby, that no one person will likely live long enough to learn it all by themself.

Listening and Learning is key but opening up ones mind to new ideas and letting go of some old ones and personal biases is even more important in my view. Also looking back on ideas that worked, like you did with the 30-06, can bring some of us back to reality as we tend to get carried away in our quest for perfection.
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Old 11-04-2017, 04:13 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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HW223: Of course you are right in that my results are for the scenarios that I have posted and vary from cartridge to cartridge and component to component. However the same principals apply unless you go to custom actions that have much closer tolerances and perhaps stronger firing pins. In that case the pressures will be higher before they show up on the primers and velocity spikes will likely be the most accurate way of staying in the "safe" zone followed by PRE. Brass does vary in how much it will resist PRE expansion and there is quite a difference in PRDiameter between new brass which has to be taken into consideration. Contrary to what most believe the larger base and thicker neck dimensions on 223/222 LapuaM brass does not make them resist pressures more than Lake City, Winchester, Hornady or even Remington or Norma for that matter. I know this as I have run the 55 Berger to over 3330+ fps, in both brass , with the same components (IMR 8208 & CCI 450 primers), and the Winchester brass will hold a primer while the Lapua will not. However this would not have happened if I had stuck to my pressure limits as indicated by primer flow as PRE was not reliable due to an oversize chamber at the base datum. I have since found the right combination using Varget that gets me safely to just over 3200 fps and targets show a potential "good load".
Here are some good examples of how I use primers, PRE and velocity to determine "Safe" pressures in my 20 EXTREME.
[IMG][/IMG]

On the left is my light gopher load with 21.4 gr of IMR 8208 that runs the 39 BK to 3500 fps. This is a very stable node where the PRE is 0.0005", leaving 0.001" chamber clearance at 0.001" and the Rem 7 1/2 primer is barely flattening against the bolt face with Zero primer. I estimate this to be less than 57,000 PSI.
This load shoots as good, or better in all rifles, as it did in my Kreiger 9" twist.
[IMG][/IMG]

Second from left was shot using the same components with the Max charge of 22.4 grains of IMR 8208, as shown on one of the charts posted above, and reaching 3645 fps in my new Benchmark barrel. This was a full case and in the center of a stable pressure node where the PRE was 0.001" leaving 0.005" chamber clearance. The primer is still rounded at the perimeter but is flattened against the bolt face and looks perfect but measuring primer flow of 0.0025" tells me that this is at my max safe load. This load shoots as good as the light gopher load and is shown on the left had target show below.

[IMG][/IMG]

Third from the right is the same except with Lapua Match brass that ran slightly faster velocity at 3656 fps in spite of having slightly more case capacity. Primer flow was the same at 0.0025" so max safe load was reached for this combination. This load shoots as well as it does above in Winchester and Lake City Brass and is shown on the targets below .

Fourth from the left was shot with the 55 Berger and 21.8 grains of Varget which was just under full in the Lapua Brass. A velocity of just over 3200 fps had been established as a good safe load running this load with a CCI 450 primer. The CCI BR4 primer showed a bit more flattening out toward the radius and primer flow of 0.003" with a velocity of 3220 is max with this combo.
Target shown on left with results of 39 BK in Lapua Brass which seems to get more fliers than Winchester and Lake City shown above:
[IMG][/IMG]

The one on the right is an example of an extremely over pressured CCI 450 primer in Winchester Brass. While the primer is flattened against the boltface the outer perimeter is still nicely rounded. However the firing pin has pushed back allowing the primer to flow, or protrude beyond the boltface by 0.008 - 0.0010". This indicates that the CCI 450 primer will withstand more pressure than the firing pin is designed to take or the brass is designed to take as the primer pockets were stretched to the limit. While the Winchester Brass would hold a soft seated primer the same load in Lapua brass did not . Both loads were on the verge of having blown primers at about 3310-3330 fps with 22.0 grains of 8208. Backing off the IMR 8208 to 21.4 grains gets safely to about 3200 fps with the 55 Berger.
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  #87  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:18 AM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Here is what I see , left is a really week load , next to it is a light load , from there on to the right I see a rifle with a fire control problem that should be fixed,
I have been trying to stay out of this thread as it looks to me like it is oriented more for the long range guys, long range to me would be some where out past 800 yards, I am not a long range competitor and there for have no business in their threads.keep seeing posts with 100 yard targets and one at three hundred that claim how great this method would be at distance , this is rediculous,if you would like to validate your theories then go compete some where and consistently run at the front , if you can’t then find some one that can and back them , competition is where the rubber meets the road, your stuff either wins or it doesn’t , if it doesn’t, go fix it and get back to it, this may sound harsh but consider how a new shooter getting into the sport feels when he finds out he has spent a year or two and a bunch of money going down the wrong path then has to start over , most quit,
If your going to use the i only shoot varmints and this is good enough in the gopher patch , that’s fine post on varmint threads ,
Now if you want to talk short range I don’t see a competitive group in any of those pictures and your process will not get you any where near the front ,
If it’s just for gophers and varminting then Carry on and I wish you all the best but please stop posting on these kinds of threads , your spreading information that can be bad for our sport
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Old 11-05-2017, 03:38 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
Here is what I see , left is a really week load , next to it is a light load , from there on to the right I see a rifle with a fire control problem that should be fixed,
I have been trying to stay out of this thread as it looks to me like it is oriented more for the long range guys, long range to me would be some where out past 800 yards, I am not a long range competitor and there for have no business in their threads.keep seeing posts with 100 yard targets and one at three hundred that claim how great this method would be at distance , this is rediculous,if you would like to validate your theories then go compete some where and consistently run at the front , if you can’t then find some one that can and back them , competition is where the rubber meets the road, your stuff either wins or it doesn’t , if it doesn’t, go fix it and get back to it, this may sound harsh but consider how a new shooter getting into the sport feels when he finds out he has spent a year or two and a bunch of money going down the wrong path then has to start over , most quit,
If your going to use the i only shoot varmints and this is good enough in the gopher patch , that’s fine post on varmint threads ,
Now if you want to talk short range I don’t see a competitive group in any of those pictures and your process will not get you any where near the front ,
If it’s just for gophers and varminting then Carry on and I wish you all the best but please stop posting on these kinds of threads , your spreading information that can be bad for our sport
I am sorry that you feel that way but am not a bit surprised. You apparently have very little experience with loading for cartridges other than a 6mm PPC and anything but custom actions. I know that there are very few combinations available to short range BR shooters, that are competitive, and load development has already been done by others.

What you see as a week load on the left is a 20 caliber cartridge pushing a 39 grain bullet to 3500 fps. For your information that load runs very close to the same trajectory as a factory 22-250, to 500 yards, and bucks the wind better as well. It is accurate enough, and has enough energy to take a gopher to that distance in every rifle that it is shot in with no further load development. The Saami max pressure for 222, 223 204R cases run between 50,000 and 59,000PSI and that load is likely around 56,000 PSI. The one you see next to it ran the 39 BK to 3650 fps , likely at about 60,000 PSI and is only about 50 fps behind a 20 Tactical that runs 63,000 PSI with a powder of similar burn rate running 39/40 grain bullets.

There is nothing wrong with the fire control of the rifle that shot a 55 Berger to 3340 fps which is at least 100 fps faster than any load that Berger shows for that bullet in a 204R. The pressures run with that load in both the Winchester and Lapua Brass were likely running 65,000 PSI as the Lapua brass would not hold a primer although the primers did not blow which takes about 0.007" primer pocket expansion to happen and likely 67,000 PSI.

This thread was entitled "Developing a good Load" which is important in any discipline and something that is not very well understood, especially by you. I have been posting to show what I have found to work very well and how I read pressure signs, which is obviously something else you know very little about when it comes to the real world. No shooter will have to spend any money, or go down the wrong path, by learning these techniques as a good load is a good load. If they want to go on into competitive shooting they will be well prepared and may have their eyes to enable them to carry on.

I have no need to get into competition to hone my cartridge and load development skills and have every right to post on any thread I see fit without this kind of harassment from someone as ignorant as you.
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:34 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
I am sorry that you feel that way but am not a bit surprised. You apparently have very little experience with loading for cartridges other than a 6mm PPC and anything but custom actions. I know that there are very few combinations available to short range BR shooters, that are competitive, and load development has already been done by others.

What you see as a week load on the left is a 20 caliber cartridge pushing a 39 grain bullet to 3500 fps. For your information that load runs very close to the same trajectory as a factory 22-250, to 500 yards, and bucks the wind better as well. It is accurate enough, and has enough energy to take a gopher to that distance in every rifle that it is shot in with no further load development. The Saami max pressure for 222, 223 204R cases run between 50,000 and 59,000PSI and that load is likely around 56,000 PSI. The one you see next to it ran the 39 BK to 3650 fps , likely at about 60,000 PSI and is only about 50 fps behind a 20 Tactical that runs 63,000 PSI with a powder of similar burn rate running 39/40 grain bullets.

There is nothing wrong with the fire control of the rifle that shot a 55 Berger to 3340 fps which is at least 100 fps faster than any load that Berger shows for that bullet in a 204R. The pressures run with that load in both the Winchester and Lapua Brass were likely running 65,000 PSI as the Lapua brass would not hold a primer although the primers did not blow which takes about 0.007" primer pocket expansion to happen and likely 67,000 PSI.

This thread was entitled "Developing a good Load" which is important in any discipline and something that is not very well understood, especially by you. I have been posting to show what I have found to work very well and how I read pressure signs, which is obviously something else you know very little about when it comes to the real world. No shooter will have to spend any money, or go down the wrong path, by learning these techniques as a good load is a good load. If they want to go on into competitive shooting they will be well prepared and may have their eyes to enable them to carry on.

I have no need to get into competition to hone my cartridge and load development skills and have every right to post on any thread I see fit without this kind of harassment from someone as ignorant as you.
wouldn’t it be better to fix the fire control issues with your rifle and then see where the best accuracy is with out having premature primer pressure issues?
Again I can not speak for the long range methods , some one from that discipline would have to Comment , but I can tell you that for short range your methods are counter productive to the best accuracy.i don’t see a group in your posts that would make any short range competitor well prepared for anything except an epic beating ,and that is bad for the sport
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  #90  
Old 11-05-2017, 09:57 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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wouldn’t it be better to fix the fire control issues with your rifle and then see where the best accuracy is with out having premature primer pressure issues?
Again I can not speak for the long range methods , some one from that discipline would have to Comment , but I can tell you that for short range your methods are counter productive to the best accuracy.i don’t see a group in your posts that would make any short range competitor well prepared for anything except an epic beating ,and that is bad for the sport
I agree with what you are posting, but you would be just as well to not bother trying to continue the debate, as your opponent has no interest in listening to what you have to say.
He has made it abundantly clear that the only methods that he believes to have any merit are his own, and he continues to discount any actual results that anyone may post that contradict his theories or his cartridge drawings.
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