ammunition accountability

[Reeves1]

(copy/paste from another site, so don't shoot the messenger !)

18 states so far starting Jan 1st 2009 are starting a Ammunition Accountability Act through state legislation???

http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Technology.htm

So much for the good old days of reloading. So far, WV isn't one of the states.

[Tundra Monkey]

That's gonna make for some crazy priced ammo

tm

Darn! Makes me glad I am fully stocked up for the next 30 years or so LOL








oh and Reeves...the bird in your av looks like t has a ninja mask on LOL...so my daughter says

[Reeves1]

troller

PM on the way with info on my "ninja"

[Elk Hunter 55]

Hi Guys,

This is absolutely insane. Here in Calgary we have a catch and release program for criminals, lest their human rights be violated and yet law abiding gun owning citizens are harassed and blamed for ALL of society's ills.

Liberals are SICK if they think that by disarming the law abiding citizens they will make Canada a safe place. In fact let me go on the record by saying that LIBERALS are PERVERTED. (PERIOD)

[jaybull]

dumbest thing i've seen yet. Why can't they understand guns and ammo are not the real problem.

[Jason Balesdent]

Now thats just scary

[Dick284]

First off, arguing with a blanket clutching Nanny Stater is very similar to arguing with an idiot. They bring you down to their level then decimate you through sheer experience.

The best way to stop this is dont elect lefty wack job politicians.

This is an American thing so far, and I'm hoping, and prayng between the NRA and the 2nd Ammnedmant this gets put to bed in one heck of a hurry.
If this became law Barnes, Nosler, Speer, Hornady, and the rest, would likely go out of business.
It would also stop sale of surplus ammunition, and gee I wonder what about cast bullets????

This is a window dressing scheme, designed to divert the attention of the ill informed from the lack of action by said politicians. After all it's easy to look like your doing something good, when the targeted group is law abiding people..


Time to stock up now,

[M77RMKII]

If you read the article, you will notice that nothing much should change.

Cases and bullets will be coded to make it easier to track. If you're a re-loader, you will buy coded bullets and brass. The manufacturer will have a record as to who the retailer was that had it for sale to the consumer. The only problem will be on manufacturers and retailers required to have a more extensive paper trail. When you buy your ammo, you now have to show your FAC. Once this comes into effect, the FAC will have to be marked down with the lot number of the ammo. Of course, you would not want to buy ammo for your buddy that just didn't see a need to get the FAC. It would make a black market for imported ammo or custom made loads, perhaps an industry to shave bullet seats?. In any case, I can see why it would be a good idea for a police force to push for something like this. I wouldn't care If my bullets had a dozen serial numbers, I don't intend to do anything illegal -)

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by M77RMKII

If you read the article, you will notice that nothing much should change.

Cases and bullets will be coded to make it easier to track. If you're a re-loader, you will buy coded bullets and brass. The manufacturer will have a record as to who the retailer was that had it for sale to the consumer. The only problem will be on manufacturers and retailers required to have a more extensive paper trail. When you buy your ammo, you now have to show your FAC. Once this comes into effect, the FAC will have to be marked down with the lot number of the ammo. Of course, you would not want to buy ammo for your buddy that just didn't see a need to get the FAC. It would make a black market for imported ammo or custom made loads, perhaps an industry to shave bullet seats?. In any case, I can see why it would be a good idea for a police force to push for something like this. I wouldn't care If my bullets had a dozen serial numbers, I don't intend to do anything illegal -)

Two problems this is not a Canadian initiative!,
Second, what are they going to use Statesside that is equivelent of our PAL

And if the bullet mauf's find it to ardious to mark their bullets, whamo, they close their doors.

What is to stop you from altering or other wise defacing these markings??

And What about home cast bullets, oh let me guess this works with a lead bullet ban.

Lets hope the NRA pushes this to USSC, and it gets turfed like DC's handgun ban, then what are the whinny tits gonna do?

[roadkill]

I agree with M77RMKII on this one. I don't really see the problem with it, and I don't see how it targets law-abiding citizens. Also:

Originally Posted by Dick284

Two problems this is not a Canadian initiative!,

True. That's yet another level on which I see no problem.

Originally Posted by Dick284

Second, what are they going to use Statesside that is equivelent of our PAL

I would say that creating somehting like a PAL for the US would be a fabulous idea. I'm okay with gun ownership being a priviledge rather than a right.

Originally Posted by Dick284

And if the bullet mauf's find it to ardious to mark their bullets, whamo, they close their doors.

Just a cost of doing business.

Originally Posted by Dick284

What is to stop you from altering or other wise defacing these markings??

Why would you do that unless you were going to do something unsavoury?

Lets hope the NRA pushes this to USSC, and it gets turfed like DC's handgun ban, then what are the whinny tits gonna do?[/QUOTE]

I dunno, but I can't see how this could be cast in an unconstitutional light, to be honest...

[GMC]

Just another Firearm's Related Law, to be added to the already Huge Pile of Firearm's Related Law's.

IMHO, just the start of the new US Pres's Firearm's Control Agenda.

[cardiacphil]

I think whats coming is some sort of small scale disarmament...I mean not anytime soon...But eventually there will be just too many laws and People will just say **** it!!! I think it is every responsible persons Right to own guns...

I think that this will put stress on the ammunition manufacturers for no reason..Like said above they are targeting Law abiding citizens for the most part...and they must know that...

I think they should go ahead and mark handgun ammunition...I dont go lookin but I never heard of anyone getting carjacked with a .338 win mag LOL

What a Joke...Just another firearms law in a fickle attempt to say not in so many words that "the public" should worry about gun owners... ... Or why else would they need to "Brand" all ammunition!!!

[Elk Hunter 55]

Gentlemen,

The reason this law should be opposed is because it is useless for it's intended purpose. By the looks of it, such a system for registering bullets and ammunition will require a massive computer database to store and administer all of this information. If you guys thought the Gun Registry was a boondoggle, you ain't seen nothing yet.

The potential for error is huge.

A database program like this will run into the millions upon millions of lines of code and with computer programmers making roughly 4 or 5 errors per thousand lines of code, the integrity of the system would be suspect to say the least.

That's programming errors, another aspect is user error. What if the secretary transposes some numbers when entering data from the day's manufacturing run. You all know about cars built on Mondays or Fridays, do you think it'll be any different with this?

How would you guys like to be arrested for murder based on what the database provides?

I've been in the software business all of my adult life and I know that programming errors are the norm, not the exception. The result is that most computer programs, especially very large complex ones, have massive cost overruns, are late by years, are buggy, and generally don't work as advertised. It really is a miracle that we have progressed as far as we have.

In my opinion the billions that would be spent on an ammunition registry would be far better not being spent at all, but since politicians can't seem to resist spending taxpayers dollars, it should be spent elsewhere.

Cheers,
Elk Hunter 55

[Elk Hunter 55]

Hi Guys,

I should add a clarification. Good programmers make 4 or 5 errors per thousand lines of computer code.

Average and below average programmers make upwards of 25 to 30 errors per thousand lines of code.

This is scary stuff.

Are we really going to bet our freedom on such a massive boondoggle?

Cheers,
Elk Hunter 55

[roadkill]

Whoah, let's take a step back for a sec, here. As Canadians, we do not now, nor will we ever enjoy, the right to own a firearm. It's a priviledge, like driving. That's why you need licenses and such.

This won't change no matter how many responsible gun owners lobby or vote, simply because amending our constitution is too hard to do.

Now, the possibility for programming error is definitely an issue that will eventually arise, and in a country where they wrote habeas corpus off the books, I'd hate to be mistakenly charged in the US for such an error, but they have to find some way to stop their society from eating itself. If this doesn't end up working out, they'll find something else.

But I'm pretty sure that there'll be an intense testing period before this thing goes live. There'd have to be some kind of appeal system in place as well, though.

But the idea of making it for handgun ammo specifically's not bad, because it's true that people don't tend to hijack cars or rob people with hunting rifles...

[Indy]

If this were to come into effect in Canada.....That would mean more government overhead, great, I'm sure my taxes will go down any time soon. This would be like the registry boondoggle, how many billions of dollars that could have been used elsewhere, like spending it on enforcement. I believe that one of the problems with society is that as it "evolves" people see the need for more legislation. Usually all that is required is more enforcement and usually the rules are already in place to protect the society. As you can tell I'm more in favor of punishing criminals than I am on restricting the honest people.

Indy.

[Indy]

Originally Posted by roadkill

But the idea of making it for handgun ammo specifically's not bad, because it's true that people don't tend to hijack cars or rob people with hunting rifles...

Right...Most criminals hijack cars with the gun they just legally paid for and registered. I'm sure that they will go through the trouble to ensure that they use registered ammo before they commit a crime. You also inferred that in handgun related crimes that the criminal will fire a shot.

Maybe tracking ammo will result in criminals robbing ammo stores and houses and more innocent people getting hurt or at least taking a loss. I'm sure that this issue is part of the "slippery slope" argument. We'll be just like Great Britain in a few years as we implement more legislation to "protect" ourselves, as more of our "privileges" are taken away.


Yes I know this is an American issue but that is just for the time being.

Indy.

[Indy]

Originally Posted by roadkill

I agree with M77RMKII on this one. I don't really see the problem with it, and I don't see how it targets law-abiding citizens. Also:

How about in your wallet, do you think this would be free?

Originally Posted by roadkill

Just a cost of doing business.

Another hit to your wallet, who is going to support all these people who are suddenly un-employed. Maybe it would hit home if you where the one to lose your job.

I will say this again that I know this is an American problem but this will be implementd here as soon as the Americans adopt it.

Indy.

[Elk Hunter 55]

Originally Posted by roadkill

... But I'm pretty sure that there'll be an intense testing period before this thing goes live. ...

Hi Roadkill;

I wouldn't put my faith in an intense testing period. If this thing ever gets into the design and implementation phase, you can bet your bottom dollar that things will go wrong and that cost and schedule will grow like weeds.

The intense testing you talk about is usually reserved for system critical functionality where lives could be lost if the software fails. In a quasi-commercial application such as the ammo registry, the testing would get cut short so as to give the appearance of being semi under control.

If the software is badly designed and implemented, like Canada's Gun registry, it will never ever be correct. The government will get something working sort of, but at one hundred times the original projected cost.

This will just give us a false sense of security when in fact it will just be another multi-billion dollar illusion.

Hope the NRA wins it's fight against this one.

Cheers,
Elk Hunter 55

[roadkill]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. Hell knows that during my 11-year stint in the tech industry, I saw more programming errors than I wanted to. I'm just not convinced that the idea is inherently bad. and I completely reject the theory that it targets law-abiding shooters.

But you're right, being wrongfully convicted due to a database error would be awful.

I think that we would be right to fight any more restrictions being laid on firearms and such north of the border. Actually making the current rules and the registry *work* would be a much better use of our government's time and resources.

[Okotokian]

Not sure how hard this would actually be to do. We are making assumptions that it would be a real hardship for ammo manufacturers. Maybe, maybe not. They already do their own stamping on the case.

One benefit not mentioned... might help F&W discover who shot a recovered animal out of season, etc. Doesn't prove who pulled the trigger, but helps them to know where to start looking. Similar to a licence plate not proving who the driver is, but you know who to ask first.

Could hardened criminals and gangs work around it though? Sure... So I sure don't see it as any big crime-fighting initiative.

[Elk Hunter 55]

Hi Guys,

What I'm saying here is that the costs for setting up this database as well as the cost of compliance to the manufacturers is going to be rather large, like in the billions of dollars. As you say, the cost of stamping is perhaps not much but it is a cost and as we keep piling on compliance costs the labyrinth of regulation keeps getting ever more convoluted. Where will it end?

Here in Calgary we seem to be having a drug war between two rival gangs with lot's of shooting going on.

The police gang unit has been catching the criminals, but the liberal judges just release these guys as soon as they appear in court. The joke I heard from one of the policeman is that Calgary has a criminal catch and release program. If the U.S. implements this database, the political pressure to have a similar program in Canada will be immense, and yet if we don't keep criminals in jail what would the money have been spent on?

Of course this is consistent with the liberal belief that society and not the individual is responsible for crime.

The refusal of our legal system to enforce the laws that we have is really sad, and yet the response by left wing politicians is to present the appearance of doing something, so long as it involves spending massive amounts of taxpayer dollars.

My original contention is that this database will not fulfill it's purpose. The technical difficulties while immense are a side issue compared to the sheer waste of money on a program which is not intended to work, or has a purpose other than advertised.

I would like to challenge you guys to identify a single case where the gun registry helped to solve a crime?

Cheers,
Elk Hunter 55

[CNP]

[quote=roadkill;[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284
And if the bullet mauf's find it to ardious to mark their bullets, whamo, they close their doors.

Originally Posted by roadkill
just a cost of doing business.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284
What is to stop you from altering or other wise defacing these markings??

Originally Posted by roadkill
Why would you do that unless you were going to do something unsavoury?

Just a cost of business that gets passed down to users!

Unsavoury? Exactly. You will alter the marking if your are planning to do something unsavoury. Its just the same as registration........criminals don't register their guns and they will alter the markings on casings so what it comes down to is the ordinary law abiding man pays the political price for owning a gun.

You're too accepting. Why is this necessary? Right, it isn't. Everbody bend over and flog themselves until they bleed.....so declares the government. You in line with this one?

[roadkill]

No, I'm not necessarily in line with it. I'm just not of the philosophy that it's automatically going to be bad or cost billions in the long term.

Yes, the long gun registry costs a crapload, but it would have cost a lot less and worked out better if it weren't implemented by a Liberal government that was up to its a55 in crazy nepotism and feelings of entitlement. I don't think it's inherently unfair or stupid. It just needs to be knocked apart and re-built. Because the post above is totally correct: the registry, as it stands to-day, isn't stopping crimes.

What I'd like to see is a breakdown of how this ammo thing is going to happen. I think that maybe they don't quite know yet, and *that* aspect is maybe a little scary.

[.264 Win Mag]

This would drive the cost of ammo through the roof!! (any excuse to raise prices just like gas). It would cost billions of billions of dollars to set up (how much was our flawed registry and it is no where near what this system would need to be). Just more laws and restrictions to shove down our throats that we must abide by or become a criminal. The money would be better spent on a thousand different ways to improve public safty. More police, upgrade systems already in place, better training so they can actually solve crime with out needing a billboard that says it was this guy the list goes on. Oh and doesn't every bullet fired from a gun already come with a fingerprint on it in the way of rifleing groves??

[cardiacphil]

HAHA...I guess this will push the intelligent bad guys to using shotguns...very little ballistic evidence..

Hmmm...what a huge waste of money and time..

The problem with using rifling grooves is you need to find the barrel or gun from which the bullet was fired...pretty tough to do I guess if they are considering this move.

[9mikemike]

sounds like another billion dollar boondoggle and BTW YOU are NOT allowed to borrow MY ammo...Frickin stupid....

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by .264 Win Mag

Oh and doesn't every bullet fired from a gun already come with a fingerprint on it in the way of rifleing groves??

Sure, and it works, IF the cops have the gun to compare it to (and knows who owns it). Guns aren't usually left at the scene of th crime however. If you think about it, registering bullets to a person actually makes more sense than registering a gun to a person, as a bullet is usually left at the scene of a crime and recovered. Maybe disband the gun registry and replace it with the bullet registry. They already got all the computers and staff.

[.264 Win Mag]

I know that using rifleing is hard to do, but annoyed that people feel we NEED more laws and regulations to catch criminals, when really it just affects those of us that love to hunt and shoot by tighter restrictions and higher costs. Criminals will find a way around this, like they do all the other laws. And it will be us hunters and shooters will be left holding the bag in terms of costs, and hassels. Believe it or not criminals use UNREGISTERD or even ILLEGAL firearms already. You don't think they will find a way to shave off numbers or illegally smuggel unmarked ammuntion in to serve there needs, creating a whole new black market industry that will profit from crime.