Trapline Problems

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

The main point of Gordys article is ATA President and Directors worked very hard for 8 years in meetings with GOA to come up with fair RFMA/Trapper policy. The Bios ignored all the hard work, then famous 8 Fur group drafted their own version without even consulting ATA. Hopefully they will now listen to ATA in upcoming meetings in September.

Well, I finally read that article and yeah, I got the same point as you that he worked very hard for a long time. It isn't clear to me why those folks would never qualify to own an RFMA lease though and the article kind of left it up to the reader to decide why. I've heard the same said from people saying that RFMA's are overpriced and unaffordable.

Regardless, to me there was one issue that was noticeably absent from the article. For years Gordy preached, and is still preaching, that in 2007 we almost lost trapping in Alberta. I would have thought that being something as HUGE as that it would have at least been addressed.

Instead, what he wrote was, "....we went the full length from building a definition of what an "Active Trapper" should be to weighing the all important question of whether or not trapping was even a desirable activity.", and, "There were those in industry and government that would just as soon have seen trapping done with."

Okay, there's something insinuated there but it's a far cry from losing trapping in Alberta. Why not come right out and say, "In 2007 we almost lost trapping in Alberta....." and elaborate on it from there? IMO something as important as that deserves to be stated clearly as possible and not merely insinuated.

[sourdough doug]

Now, there's the problem

[HunterDave]

Hey 209 x 50, why'd you ban me from your Trapping Inc. Facebook page where I got the above picture of Gordy and caption from? If it something that you dodn't want people to know about why'd you post it? I guess that if you can't shout someone down you can shut them down, eh.

[209x50]

Hey 209 x 50, why'd you ban me from your Trapping Inc. Facebook page where I got the above picture of Gordy and caption from? If it something that you dodn't want people to know about why'd you post it? I guess that if you can't shout someone down you can shut them down, eh.

If I'd want any picture I've taken posted here i will do it. You or no one else will decide what I do with my work. You used that photo without asking permission from a closed FB group. I don't have the time nor inclination to chase members around the internet to make sure they don't steal pictures from the group for their own agendas. Removing you shortened my search string by a name.

[6tmile]

Here is some reading about trap line abuse from a few years back, and a fight on who can build cabins in the back country.





https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...PKroDkDBlMrY2Q

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by 209x50

If I'd want any picture I've taken posted here i will do it. You or no one else will decide what I do with my work. You used that photo without asking permission from a closed FB group. I don't have the time nor inclination to chase members around the internet to make sure they don't steal pictures from the group for their own agendas. Removing you shortened my search string by a name.

Before you call someone a thief you ought to know that your "work" that is in the public domain is not subject to copyright restrictions. Regardless, it's your site and and you can include or exclude anyone that you want......it's not a great loss to me. I'm sure that your Facebook site membership outside of Alberta are extremely interested in your Alberta trapping politics. Please carry on.

As to my agenda. I have no reservations whatsoever with holding people accountable.....NONE! I would much rather be known as someone who would address any wrongdoing than someone who is complicit in covering it up. My loyalties lie with trappers and trapping in Alberta and not to an individual or individuals. Got it?

[Seige]

Really !? This is a never ending circle!!!

I totally get it now!

I wash my hands

[Seige]

Originally Posted by Seige

Really !? This is a never ending circle!!!

I totally get it now!

I wash my hands

Using another's picture is somewhat the same as/ if not exactly the same as... Plagiarism Dave. It's not proper!

You need to ask permission to use things like that. Via PM or whatever. It's just the way it is! It's not accepted in any way shape or form. I understand you've spent a career in the military, and probably not in college or university.. And may not have been taught that.

I'm certainly not saying anything other than that, first thing I did out of high school was apply to join Infantry with CF, Reg Forces.. Was accepted.. Broken back from car accident 3 weeks before QL2 or whatever was the term for boot camp screwed me from that. So SAIT it was for me.. And first thing one learns and has to sign on for legal reasons.. Was not to plagiarise any other s work.

It very well may be illegal, I'm not exactly sure about that. But it certainly is not accepted.

When it is usable, it has to be quoted and recognized for what it is. That's all.

And any one caught doing it in school, automatic failure and or disqualification.

Just so you know

[HunterDave]

Siege, you are entitled to your opinion the same as everyone else, but your opinion doesn't make it so and many would disagree with it. Admittedly, I'm not familiar with Internet etiquette but if someone posts a picture on the Internet and it isn't copyrighted, there's nothing illegal with sharing the picture elsewhere. Whether you agree with that or not, it is what it is.

Out of all the crap that has gone down is this really what's important to you?

As far as plagiarism goes, if you had noticed in my post the caption was in italics differentiating it from my own "work". Just how did I pass it off as my own "work"? In hind sight I should have posted the original caption complete with all of the grammatical errors that I corrected and stated that it was originally Richard Mellon's from Trapping Inc.. I wouldn't want to take credit for that.

I find your desire to serve your country admirable and your accident unfortunate. If you had been able to pursue a career in the CAF you would have been subject to numerous briefings on ethics.......it is something that is HUGE in the Military. Ethics, Integrity, Loyalty, Honour and all that good stuff is very, very important to us. As an Infanteer, if you were fortunate enough to serve in the Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR), you would have learned the Regimental moto of, "Never Pass a Fault". I don't think that you need to lecture me on those moral values.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think that since I made a career of being a Soldier that I never attended university or college? Do I sound uneducated to you?

[Seige]

Edit: as stated earlier.... I wash my hands!

Yer on yer own, bud

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Seige

Edit: as stated earlier.... I wash my hands!

Yer on yer own, bud

You get spoken to politely in an intelligent conversation and all you can do is "wash your hands"

This is the problem with yappy headliners with no substance. If you have nothing to say other then chastise Dave for sharing a picture off the internet and try to diminish his opinion by stating he's uneducated why don't you just scroll on.

Now I don't agree with all Dave's opinions and I think he is off on some of his findings. But everybody is entitled to their opinion and whether I agree or not, the last thing I would ever want is for them not to have an opinion.

Dave has been polite and despite being turned on for his position in this debate by many of the members here , very level headed and composed in my opinion.
Now Dave asked Rich a simple question and he got Rich's response and it was done. An ethics lecture and insult wasn't required from the peanut gallery.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Seige

And any one caught doing it in school, automatic failure and or disqualification.

Just so you know

This isn't school ! In the real world the rules of school aren't worth the breath they're spoken with.

If no laws were broken, the rest is just somebody's opinion !

Just so you know !

[Seige]

It's kinda like this,

When someone attempts to help another, to be replied to in an argumentative way, is highly unappealing. Understood?

I'm not here to argue with someone who seems to love to argue everything with everyone. I've much better things to do with my time.

Just so you know

So yes, in polite terms.. I'm done

[creeky]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Before you call someone a thief you ought to know that your "work" that is in the public domain is not subject to copyright restrictions. Regardless, it's your site and and you can include or exclude anyone that you want......it's not a great loss to me. I'm sure that your Facebook site membership outside of Alberta are extremely interested in your Alberta trapping politics. Please carry on.

As to my agenda. I have no reservations whatsoever with holding people accountable.....NONE! I would much rather be known as someone who would address any wrongdoing than someone who is complicit in covering it up. My loyalties lie with trappers and trapping in Alberta and not to an individual or individuals. Got it?

if/when 209 took that picture, he immediately owns copyright on it. sharing on Facebook within Facebook is one thing. a person right clicking "save as" and posting it on other sites is a whole other.


copyright infringement is on the books and alive well if the infringed get's all squirrelly about it.

[HunterDave]

I started a thread in the General section wrt to sharing photos found on the internet for anyone that is interested. Here's the link:

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...81#post3322081

[Imagehunter]

Since that thread got closed:

Internet users often automatically grant a website permission to use a photograph by agreeing to the website’s terms of use. The terms of use for social networking and photo-sharing websites such as Facebook or Flickr for example, usually grant the website a non-exclusive license to use uploaded photographs but not further permission for other website users to distribute them.

Source:
https://cippic.ca/en/FAQ/Photography_Law

209x50 is the owner of the image, no matter where he uploads it he stays the owner and third parties need his permission to use it online, not just if they want to use it commercially. Sharing his post with the image on facebook (which always includes a link to his original post) is a completely different thing than downloading the image and then sharing it using an external provider. Technically and legally.

[HunterDave]

Well, it would appear that I did in fact break the law by posting 209's picture and he had every right to be ticked off about it. I could have just as easily made my point without using the photo and for that I apologize. I'm just a trapper and not a lawyer so other than that all that I can say is......Lesson learned.

For the record......I believe that everything that Gordy wrote in the article was factual with the exception of the number of trappers in Alberta which was his best guess.

Not withstanding that, I stand by my opinion stated in my post that the picture appeared in:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Okay, there's something insinuated there but it's a far cry from losing trapping in Alberta. Why not come right out and say, "In 2007 we almost lost trapping in Alberta....." and elaborate on it from there? IMO something as important as that deserves to be stated clearly as possible and not merely insinuated.

[bill9044]

Originally Posted by Seige

Using another's picture is somewhat the same as/ if not exactly the same as... Plagiarism Dave. It's not proper!

You need to ask permission to use things like that. Via PM or whatever. It's just the way it is! It's not accepted in any way shape or form. I understand you've spent a career in the military, and probably not in college or university.. And may not have been taught that.

I'm certainly not saying anything other than that, first thing I did out of high school was apply to join Infantry with CF, Reg Forces.. Was accepted.. Broken back from car accident 3 weeks before QL2 or whatever was the term for boot camp screwed me from that. So SAIT it was for me.. And first thing one learns and has to sign on for legal reasons.. Was not to plagiarise any other s work.

It very well may be illegal, I'm not exactly sure about that. But it certainly is not accepted.

When it is usable, it has to be quoted and recognized for what it is. That's all.

And any one caught doing it in school, automatic failure and or disqualification.

Just so you know

Opinion eh Dave? This is a prime learning opportunity for everyone. Maybe if someone mention's a short coming maybe instead of arguing for the sake of disagreeing maybe folks need to step back from the social media and think or do some research. This maybe harder for some than others. It's quite unfortunate that this forum has turned into an argument space that's all. Any trap sets to talk about?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by bill9044

Opinion eh Dave? This is a prime learning opportunity for everyone. Maybe if someone mention's a short coming maybe instead of arguing for the sake of disagreeing maybe folks need to step back from the social media and think or do some research. This maybe harder for some than others. It's quite unfortunate that this forum has turned into an argument space that's all. Any trap sets to talk about?

I've done my best on this thread to ignore the peanut gallery but I'll bite this time.

This thread is titled "Trapline Problems" and is about an article that someone wrote in a magazine. Besides the derail that I caused by posting 209's picture, that is what the discussion is about. In my world a discussion means an exchange of ideas and opinions between people in a mature and respectful manner. For the most part, not withstanding one of my comments wrt photogate, and the multiple posts initiated by other posters focusing on me (which I tried my best to ignore) rather than the subject, that is what I have tried to keep it. There were plenty of posts that I would have liked to comment on but I chose not to as it would have just derailed the discussion. If you would add your opinion to the discussion, I would respect it. I may not necessarily agree with it, and I may even state why I disagree with it, but in my world that certainly does not mean that I'm being augmentative with you.

As far as these types of discussions being on this forum, there is no other place that I know of where you can do it. Prior to being recently banned from Trapping Inc, and despite having multiple opportunities to comment on the various political Alberta trapping threads on there, I never once made a single comment on any of them. IMO it just wasn't the right place to do it and , like you feel about AO, I would have much rather that forum remain strictly a place to go to discuss sets, etc that you mentioned.

As far as Alberta Trappers (The unofficial ATA discussion site?) goes, it has been my experience there that it is a good place to be told what your opinion should be and you can expect to be berated, belittled and even be sworn at and called names if you offer a differing opinion. The admins there have even deleted my posts for no other reason than they disagreed with my comments. In fairness to them I think that they may have been pressured by members there that more or less rule the roost. I chose to leave that group because IMO it is a total waste of time and who wants to subject themselves to that anyway? I guess that my name can now be added to the list of people that have been run off as one poster on this thread described happened to people in the past.

So where is there anywhere left but AO to discuss issues that effect Alberta trappers? Maybe it's time to start another trappers forum where trappers are free to voice their opinion without fear of being chastised or shouted down for it? I think that Rob and the Mods on here do a great job of balancing freedom of speech and BS.

As far as stepping back and researching things, this is something that I tend to do but if the information is not there then there's nothing to find. I would love to hear Gordy's story of how we almost lost trapping in Alberta back in 2008......Maybe in the next issue of AO magazine?

Without sounding like a dorkhead, and as another poster on this thread mentioned, if a subject posted on this forum doesn't interest you then why not just scroll right on by and ignore it?

I enjoy discussing, exchanging ideas and learning about sets, etc but I'm also interested in issues that effect trapping and trappers in Alberta. My favourite thread from last season was titled, "First Time Beaver Under Ice". Not because it was a thread that I started but because there was an abundance of information, some great pictures and so many members contributed to it. It was a great thread that helped me enormously as I'm sure it did others.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...hlight=beavers

This post is a long read and much longer than I intended but I figured that the issues that you brought up were worth addressing. If you find any or all of what I wrote argumentative I simply can't help you with that.

[Tfng]

That thread was one of my favourites also!

[sourdough doug]

Hi HD, I'm not sure if we are on the same page, but alot of what you stated, I agree with. Just for clarification, read my post, #43 on this post.

[nube]

Originally Posted by sourdough doug

Hi HD, I'm not sure if we are on the same page, but alot of what you stated, I agree with. Just for clarification, read my post, #43 on this post.

I think u all know where I stand! I feel like an outcast now and so be it. I agree with a lot of things as well from HD and Doug. I know there are a few others as well but are either too afraid to pipe up or don't want to ruffle feathers. I find it sad that we have how many hundreds or possibly over 1000 trappers on this forum and very few will speak their mind.
I'll go crawl under my rock again now....

[HunterDave]

I'm headed out in the bush for a few days to a week but before I go I'd like to make one point very clear to everyone. I have been accused of being anti-ATA for my views but I am anything but that. I believe that everyone in the ATA work very hard on our behalf and for the right reasons but IMO there are exceptions. I know of people within the ATA who are equally as sick of the old boys club and would like nothing better than to change the culture of fear and intimidation within it but if they ever opened their mouth I'm absolutely positive that they'd be run out of the association as has been done in the past. Besides, who in the hell wants to subject themselves to that type of abuse. As for me, I could not give two squats what anyone thinks of me and I have no problem whatsoever calling a spade a spade. What are they going to do, take my birthday away? It must drive people absolutely nuts that they can't control me through character assassination or anything else.

[uke hunter]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I'm headed out in the bush for a few days to a week but before I go I'd like to make one point very clear to everyone. I have been accused of being anti-ATA for my views but I am anything but that. I believe that everyone in the ATA work very hard on our behalf and for the right reasons but IMO there are exceptions. I know of people within the ATA who are equally as sick of the old boys club and would like nothing better than to change the culture of fear and intimidation within it but if they ever opened their mouth I'm absolutely positive that they'd be run out of the association as has been done in the past. Besides, who in the hell wants to subject themselves to that type of abuse. As for me, I could not give two squats what anyone thinks of me and I have no problem whatsoever calling a spade a spade. What are they going to do, take my birthday away? It must drive people absolutely nuts that they can't control me through character assassination or anything else.

Extremely well said! And completely agree with the old boys club comment!

[Seige]

LOL not at all Dave, no one else needs too, you handle that all by yourself!

I consider you a great guy in "real life", yet on this forum dude not sure.. It does get quite juvenile, and extremely predictable. You just gotta try and get the last word in EVERYTIME! grow up already
And its pretty hilarious when yall call other members "the peanut gallery" lol who are you kidding
You arent the only one who calls a spade, a spade!

And Nube, ive personally already stated what ive had to say about the way things are run! I just dont repeat myself everytime another thread about the same thing comes up(if you were referring to me)

[Seige]

And to be honest and fair, Dave i actually agree on an awful lot of what you say in your concerns! And have said them myself as well. For what its worth!

[sourdough doug]

I hear you loud and clear Dave.
When the members had some say in the ATA rag that is now being "published", there was room for open dialogue. Now whenever anyone speaks up on an issue, even on this board, this rag rips those a new sphincter. I was on the verge of being banned here recently for using the word NAZI in describing a situation. Fortunately, for me, the interpretation of what I said was looked at again and I was reinstated. The jist of my comment was do do with "freedom to speech" and what happened prior to WWII.
I'm not here to write a book but those who have been with the ATA for the past 20 years, KNOW of what they speak and the paths that had been taken.

Enjoy your time away, Dave and hopefully return with renewed interest and don't let this/them beat you down.
You have the support of all those who have been able to read between the lines and not been afaid to speak up. Maybe there will be more showing up

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by nube

I think u all know where I stand! I feel like an outcast now and so be it. I agree with a lot of things as well from HD and Doug. I know there are a few others as well but are either too afraid to pipe up or don't want to ruffle feathers. I find it sad that we have how many hundreds or possibly over 1000 trappers on this forum and very few will speak their mind.
I'll go crawl under my rock again now....

If you are an outcast lots of us are cause many of us trappers have the same thoughts and concerns as you and many others. It feels like an uphill battle all the time and to have to fight it with those who share the same passion whether it be trapping hunting whatever its so disheartening! Sometimes we don't speak up cause of this and sometimes its cause its so damn exhausting....

[uke hunter]

What I find interesting about Gordy's statement about almost loosing trapping in 2007 is that wasn't Gordy himself the President of the ATA for years leading up to this date? Everyone keeps heralding Gordy as some type of hero, yet, it was under his direction that we almost lost it! What was he doing for years to let it get to that state! Again, sounds like for years he was busy....not productive. Some people need to be put to pasture for good and let new thinking/ideas prevail!

[sourdough doug]

Yes Uke, what we now have is what we let happen by sitting on our thumbs and being told by those in control...that they had it under control. It appears that for sometime it was the other way around.
Peacocks are pretty birds....but what are they good for..