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Old 05-31-2013, 12:05 PM
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Default Crossbow range day

I got in an hour of shooting yesterday, in between downpours. I had promised myself to do this after the recent crossbow posts on the forum.

1% of my hunting is accomplished with a firearm. 99% with a bow (compound, recurve and longbow) and most of that is for deer, moose and bear. Most of that again is done from a tree-stand. I purchased a blind nine or so years ago and have never used it. The only spot and stalk (still hunting) I do is on my way to a stand, from it, or getting away from the stand for a walk. I will wager that most bowhunters hunt from stands (or blinds) a good majority of the time. The only other occasions that still hunting would be preferred would be for elk or antelope hunting. I’ve been hunting with bows for 25 years.

Not one to exclude any tool for hunting, I bought a crossbow. Having said that, I support the current regulations with regard to the description of archery equipment, exceptions for disabilities and the seasons for which that equipment is used in. The status quo is just fine with me. I really don’t need anyone, especially anyone who does not own a crossbow or has never taken an animal with one, telling me about the pros and cons of crossbows. So please dispense with your unqualified comments……because that is what they are. Those who own and use recurves, longbows, compound bows and crossbows are the most likely to know what these tools are capable of and I would expect both pro and con comments on my views.


So today at the range (private property), where I had unrestricted use and could shoot to any distance if I so desired. I had mentioned 100 yard crossbow shooting on the forum and stuff like that always has it’s detractors, just like those who snipe at guys who shoot long distances with their firearms. Firing a bolt from a crossbow at 100 yard distances, really does not take much skill. If you have ever fired a scoped rifle at 100 yard target, you’re more than qualified. I could give anyone my crossbow, right now, and have them shooting tight groups at 100 yards. I’ve owned a couple Excalibur Crossbows, the model I’m using right now is a Relayer Y25, 200# draw weight. Whatever Excalibur Crossbow you have, any model, it is capable of achieving tight groups at long distances. Holding a crossbow is the same as a rifle, be prepared for a heavy front end though. Shooting at 100 yards I had many options of holding the bow. I’ve got tripods, bipods, gun rests and a large shooting bag (Calwell Tack Driver). I chose the tack driver today. Anyone sighting in a rifle at 100 yards is going to use some kind of rest right? Who sights in a rifle offhand?

I haven’t used my crossbow since last fall. One test shot at 20 yards proved that it was still on the bullseye. Automatically, every aiming point (20/20/40/50 yards) is dead on when using an Excalibur scope. It uses a speed dial on the scope, just select your arrow speed on the dial and all your aiming points are perfect. A shot at 50 yards in the bullseye proved this to be functioning. I then moved the target out to 75 yards. In order to reduce the number of elevation clicks (up) on the scope, I kept using the 50 yard aiming point. It took 23 clicks to get into the bullseye at 75 yards. I had no idea when this scope would run out of elevation but at 23 clicks, bolts were flying into the X. Satisfied with that, the target was moved out to 100 yards. Another 23 clicks and I’m getting good groups at 100 yards. It’s cool seeing arrows, in your scope, arcing towards the target and finally hearing contact, a second after you pulled the trigger. So, 46 clicks back down and fire at a 50 target. Bullseye. The scope works great, repeatable results. The only improvement I see with regard to a scope, for long range shooting, would be to include target turrets.
It's my opinion that anyone with an Excalibur Crossbow could have produced similar if not better results.
Closest target is at 20 yards, the furthest 100 yards (big rock on the left)

100 Yard Group

same 100 Yard group


Had to cut short any further shooting because of serving fray.........and the impending downpour.

I brought my compound with me of course. Haven’t shot that much recently either. Shot three arrows at 60 yards, the maximum my sight pin configuration allows. Good results for not shooting regularly, but shooting a compound is second nature for me. I don’t use a peep, never have, and was curious about using the “Anchor Site”. So, I have one of those on the bow; I’ll keep it on. One thing about not using a peep sight on a compound, in the winter, wearing bulky clothes, especially wearing a hat that covers my ears, it conflicts with my anchor point under my ear. This has caused me to miss a couple times. The Anchor Site is a tool that can compensate for issues wear clothing may affect your form. Heavy, bulky clothing when using a crossbow is not a factor.

60 yard group with my compound.......not impressive. Lets say the top arrow is a flyer. Hey, it is raining now!


What’s the point in all this? I know that I can kill a deer or moose sized animal out to 100 yards if I so desire with my crossbow. A novice can do it (skill not required). Point and shoot. On the other hand; I will not, ever, consider the same scenario with any other form of archery equipment. After 25 years, I simply do not have the skill.

Last edited by CNP; 05-31-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:13 PM
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Thanks for the pics and the post.....definitely eye opening information!

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Old 05-31-2013, 01:15 PM
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Awesome post ehntr

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Old 05-31-2013, 03:50 PM
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Default Question about speed?

What speed does your crossbow shoot at? I used a Horton hawk compound crossbow in Ontario. Shot about 250 fps off the string (chronograph) and at 40 yards I was always worried about the deer jumping my arrow, the guys I hunted with used compound bows exclusively and each had deer jump their arrows.

So just because I could shoot comfortably out to 50-60 yards, my longest shot ended up only being 28 yards although I would shoot about 40 at a deer. The deer in southern Ontario are also a lot jumper than the deer in Alberta I have noticed.

What would be your max comfort shot with your Excalibur?

Not trying to open a can of worms or anything, It is definitely a better crossbow than I was using haha.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:08 PM
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Good shooting!

I'm assuming there was little to no wind?

A wind gust would have quite an effect on a bolt or arrow that travels for a second in the air on the way to the target.

I've shot my Excal Phoenix at 75 yards, off a rest, and wasn't quite that accurate (pie plate grouping), but then it was a bit windy with gusts up to 15 k or so across the range.

At the same time there was a guy shooting a compound at the same range, a 'friendly' spontaneous competition, and he did a bit better than me at the same range. His arrows traveled slightly faster than mine though.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:08 PM
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Too bad you could not sand bag the compound bow also, would have had better results...steadier rest. Shoot the same scenario with the cross bow "free hand" at 60 and bet your groups open up as per your "wet" flyer...

Great pics and it looks like you had fun, better than work!
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:17 PM
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Pretty interesting, thanks for posting. So all the guys who have been crying the blues and wanting to be able to use x-guns in archery season will be able to shoot 100 yards without too much trouble. So nice
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:21 PM
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Only if they are slob hunters! shooting at game at 100 yards with any bow is a recipe for disaster
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:35 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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It's all good info, let us know how the 100 yrd on game shots go when u get a chance.

You know that time of flight thing with the super noisy crossbow thing.

Guys shoot tight groups at 1000 yards and further on paper with centerfire rifles too but so many have learned those time of flight on game plus the other variables of long distance shooting lessons, and many long range shooters have drastically shorter self imposed ranges for hunting as many would say "effective range".

100 yards with cross or compound is plenty doable but long range for both so only for the right hands and conditions and definitely not for majority, and when I researched this for the last epic crossbow thread on here I found more kills over 100 yards by compound guys than crossbow guys. The compounds longer arrows retain energy further than crossbows plus quieter launches likely help a bit too.

Sure likely easier to get more consistent groups with a crossbow but not hard for guys to stay in the ole paper plate to 100 and beyond with compounds and getting a pin set for 100 isn't hard, arrows alway go where pin was when string drops so not really an accuracy matter...it's the other variables that are the issue when shooting long with these bows on game. And seeing as how harvest stats percentages tend to mirror compounds wherever they run together it's pretty hard to argue the added effectiveness the crossbow "apparently" has.

Effective bow ranges will be 60 or less for majority of users, compounds or crossbows, fact. Both guns and bows same thing, practice far on paper etc. But on game, always shorter effective ranges for majority of users. The r both slow speed weapons in grand scheme, limiting factors r not accuracy related but velocity rated...they r bows.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
Only if they are slob hunters! shooting at game at 100 yards with any bow is a recipe for disaster
If I'm gonna lob some arrows at 100.... I'll take the versaility of the compound over the crossbow as something tells me quick follow up shots might come in handy here lol. Have fun reloading that crossbow to try end end something u maybe shouldnt have shot at in first place.

Don't worry chef, get the full understanding of the tool and fear not....it's a bow.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:52 PM
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Great post Ehntr ! Looks like you proved a lot of questions, people had.

I was going to set up something similar this week...except I was going to have my 3 year old, give me a hand...
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:12 PM
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I do agree you should be doing some standing shots or kneeling as not everyone will have a perfect rest setup..
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:23 PM
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Don't worry chef, get the full understanding of the tool and fear not....it's a bow.
and a seaHORSE is a horse........
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:02 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Lol potty and waffle riser guy....oh this one is just getting started, love it. Company just about here so may take a day or so but ill be back at least once or twice ha ha.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philintheblank View Post
What speed does your crossbow shoot at? I used a Horton hawk compound crossbow in Ontario. Shot about 250 fps off the string (chronograph) and at 40 yards I was always worried about the deer jumping my arrow, the guys I hunted with used compound bows exclusively and each had deer jump their arrows.

So just because I could shoot comfortably out to 50-60 yards, my longest shot ended up only being 28 yards although I would shoot about 40 at a deer. The deer in southern Ontario are also a lot jumper than the deer in Alberta I have noticed.

What would be your max comfort shot with your Excalibur?

Not trying to open a can of worms or anything, It is definitely a better crossbow than I was using haha.

325......it's on the scope dial. I lived in ON most of my life, always used a compound there......only because I did not own a crossbow. I don't worry about deer "jumping-the-string". Never had it happen to me. A feeding, walking deer that has no reason to be alert is not likely to "jump-the-string".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistagin View Post
Good shooting!

I'm assuming there was little to no wind?

A wind gust would have quite an effect on a bolt or arrow that travels for a second in the air on the way to the target.

I've shot my Excal Phoenix at 75 yards, off a rest, and wasn't quite that accurate (pie plate grouping), but then it was a bit windy with gusts up to 15 k or so across the range.

At the same time there was a guy shooting a compound at the same range, a 'friendly' spontaneous competition, and he did a bit better than me at the same range. His arrows traveled slightly faster than mine though.
Wind quartering left to right no more than a few mph. The thing that I though that affected accuracy more than anything else is the trigger. It's ugly........needs a trigger job for sure. Compound bow and crossbow, both shot offhand, the compound will always win.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
Too bad you could not sand bag the compound bow also, would have had better results...steadier rest. Shoot the same scenario with the cross bow "free hand" at 60 and bet your groups open up as per your "wet" flyer...

Great pics and it looks like you had fun, better than work!
I detect your sarcasm. A crossbow can be sand-bag'd.....that is a good thing. As I said above. Competing against a compound, a crossbow shot offhand is not going to win. A compound will out perform rifle shooters shooting off hand as well. I shoot bench rest, bipod, tripod, off my pack when shooting a rifle. Whatever I can do to increase accuracy I will take that advantage. Who doesn't. It just can't be done with a regular bow.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
It's all good info, let us know how the 100 yrd on game shots go when u get a chance.

You know that time of flight thing with the super noisy crossbow thing.

Guys shoot tight groups at 1000 yards and further on paper with centerfire rifles too but so many have learned those time of flight on game plus the other variables of long distance shooting lessons, and many long range shooters have drastically shorter self imposed ranges for hunting as many would say "effective range".

100 yards with cross or compound is plenty doable but long range for both so only for the right hands and conditions and definitely not for majority, and when I researched this for the last epic crossbow thread on here I found more kills over 100 yards by compound guys than crossbow guys. The compounds longer arrows retain energy further than crossbows plus quieter launches likely help a bit too.

Sure likely easier to get more consistent groups with a crossbow but not hard for guys to stay in the ole paper plate to 100 and beyond with compounds and getting a pin set for 100 isn't hard, arrows alway go where pin was when string drops so not really an accuracy matter...it's the other variables that are the issue when shooting long with these bows on game. And seeing as how harvest stats percentages tend to mirror compounds wherever they run together it's pretty hard to argue the added effectiveness the crossbow "apparently" has.

Effective bow ranges will be 60 or less for majority of users, compounds or crossbows, fact. Both guns and bows same thing, practice far on paper etc. But on game, always shorter effective ranges for majority of users. The r both slow speed weapons in grand scheme, limiting factors r not accuracy related but velocity rated...they r bows.
I can't get a pin for 100 yards on my compound, I hold my bow high and anchor high, resulting in the pins taking up the lower half of my sight window. I might get a pin down far enough to let me shoot 75 yards? Guys that can shoot a 9 inch paper plate consistently at 100 yards with a compound are 1/1000. Guys that can shoot 100 yards into a paper plate consistenly with a crossbow 900/1000 (with my crossbow).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
If I'm gonna lob some arrows at 100.... I'll take the versaility of the compound over the crossbow as something tells me quick follow up shots might come in handy here lol. Have fun reloading that crossbow to try end end something u maybe shouldnt have shot at in first place.

Don't worry chef, get the full understanding of the tool and fear not....it's a bow.
Follow up shots with a crossbow.............not required
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishnafterwork View Post


I do agree you should be doing some standing shots or kneeling as not everyone will have a perfect rest setup..
Sure. But here is the thing. If you put yourself into a position, say a blind or stand, that only gives you a 30 yard shot, you don't wory about shooting offhand. Now if you intentionally put yourself into a position where you could shoot 100 yards, you should have thought about bringing a rest of some type. I always pack something to use when I rifle hunt........even if it is just the pack on my back, I will use it.......it's only logical.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:26 PM
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and a seaHORSE is a horse........
Bwahahaha ..Priceless!

I'm stealing that!
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:00 PM
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and a seaHORSE is a horse........
Actually, a seahorse is a fish, albeit a rather strange one!
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:38 PM
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First google and I get a 103 yrd squirrel (guys having fun with the challenge) 1st guy misses by c-hair, second guy maybe not ready for 100 plus and third guy gets a turn and heart shot, very shortly down same page we have a 104 yrd muley in brutal wind, in fact pretty windy on the squirrel too, see links below. This is lterally a drop in the bucket...the long range bow kills awesomeness easily won by compound guys. Get your googler going boys...prepare to be enlightened...I was being generous about the pie plate at a 100 comment....not really a problem for solid shooters. This is another easily moot argument that when dug into easy to see the crossbow is just another bow, in fact, the compound guys can whoop up on the crossbow guys in most cases IMO. No threat. Seriously, start googling 100 yard bow shots, no end to guys killing and shooting well to ranges most think are insane for any kind of bow. There r too many long-range compound kills to find now.

The compound is the most effective bow for hunting in the most situations hands down. There is a reason it's as popular as it is....it does it all and then some!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSQzE...e_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ri6U...e_gdata_player

Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 05-31-2013 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 06-01-2013, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
First google and I get a 103 yrd squirrel (guys having fun with the challenge) 1st guy misses by c-hair, second guy maybe not ready for 100 plus and third guy gets a turn and heart shot, very shortly down same page we have a 104 yrd muley in brutal wind, in fact pretty windy on the squirrel too, see links below. This is lterally a drop in the bucket...the long range bow kills awesomeness easily won by compound guys. Get your googler going boys...prepare to be enlightened...I was being generous about the pie plate at a 100 comment....not really a problem for solid shooters. This is another easily moot argument that when dug into easy to see the crossbow is just another bow, in fact, the compound guys can whoop up on the crossbow guys in most cases IMO. No threat. Seriously, start googling 100 yard bow shots, no end to guys killing and shooting well to ranges most think are insane for any kind of bow. There r too many long-range compound kills to find now.

The compound is the most effective bow for hunting in the most situations hands down. There is a reason it's as popular as it is....it does it all and then some!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSQzE...e_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ri6U...e_gdata_player


And, there is the argument. The average bow guy can't make those 100 yard shots. But!!! The average xgun guy can...... ( being both are set up for it)The bow guys that can make those shot, have more skill, patience, experience and practice to make those shots. And yes, they will out shoot xguns, because of the attributes listed.

Once tuned to 100 yds, anyone who has shot a gun, should be able to hit a target at 100 with a xgun...and even pass it to his buddies, with the similar results....

Heck, I'm pretty confident my 3 yr old could make those shots with a bi pod, on a rest with a xgun! Hoping to try it this week !
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Old 06-01-2013, 12:15 AM
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And, there is the argument. The average bow guy can't make those 100 yard shots. But!!! The average xgun guy can...... ( being both are set up for it)The bow guys that can make those shot, have more skill, patience, experience and practice to make those shots. And yes, they will out shoot xguns, because of the attributes listed.

Once tuned to 100 yds, anyone who has shot a gun, should be able to hit a target at 100 with a xgun...and even pass it to his buddies, with the similar results....

Heck, I'm pretty confident my 3 yr old could make those shots with a bi pod, on a rest with a xgun! Hoping to try it this week !
Exactly. I maintain 1/1000 guys can hit a pie plate consistently at 100 yards with a compound.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:51 AM
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Yup, I agree the compound guy who wants to shoot long distance has practiced a LOT he knows his equipment, how to tune it, shoot it etc. In other words he knows it inside and out and I dare say that he will make a more ethical hunter than the dude who bought the crossbow two weeks ago just to get into bow season.
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Old 06-01-2013, 07:42 AM
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99% hunter 1% tool, on paper plenty is possible lol....even with newbs and compounds with very little practice.
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Old 06-01-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehntr View Post
325......it's on the scope dial. I lived in ON most of my life, always used a compound there......only because I did not own a crossbow. I don't worry about deer "jumping-the-string". Never had it happen to me. A feeding, walking deer that has no reason to be alert is not likely to "jump-the-string".
True enough. I never personally had a deer jump the string either, but I believe my buddies when they say they did. you're right though, if the deer is relaxed it shouldn't have time to react.. That Excalibur is shooting pretty fast! Puts my little guy to shame haha.

Thanks for the post
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:34 AM
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I detect your sarcasm. A crossbow can be sand-bag'd.....that is a good thing. As I said above. Competing against a compound, a crossbow shot offhand is not going to win. A compound will out perform rifle shooters shooting off hand as well. I shoot bench rest, bipod, tripod, off my pack when shooting a rifle. Whatever I can do to increase accuracy I will take that advantage. Who doesn't. It just can't be done with a regular bow.

No sarcasm intended just pointing out that free hand anything and the groups will open up, at 60 yards on a target who cares...on a game animal a wounded animal is the result...we always hear of the hero shots but when things factor in like wind etc. its the animal that suffers.

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Old 06-01-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
And, there is the argument. The average bow guy can't make those 100 yard shots. But!!! The average xgun guy can...... ( being both are set up for it)The bow guys that can make those shot, have more skill, patience, experience and practice to make those shots. And yes, they will out shoot xguns, because of the attributes listed.

Once tuned to 100 yds, anyone who has shot a gun, should be able to hit a target at 100 with a xgun...and even pass it to his buddies, with the similar results....

Heck, I'm pretty confident my 3 yr old could make those shots with a bi pod, on a rest with a xgun! Hoping to try it this week !
Xgun is that one of those lazer thingy's used to kill Klingons? If so I want one with all the accessories so I can zap' em at 100 yards too.
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:51 AM
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Great post Randy! You obviously put in a lot of time into the experiment and original post. Well done!

That is a very respectable 100 yd grouping with the crossbow....not quite sub-moa though. You mentioned that you started to get good groups at 100 yds and I have to ask.....How many groups did you shoot before you took the picture of the one that you posted? I don't know what your string looked like before you started shooting but by the looks of it in the close up photo it looks like you did a fair amount.

This summer I'm definitely going to have to try the 100 yd shoot with my Excalibur Exomax to see what results I get. I have it sighted for 30 yds which is a suitable distance for the type of hunting that I do.....in the woods from a treestand. My groupings at 30 yds, prone offhand, are similar to your 100 yd grouping so I'd be interested to see the results. I'm pretty sure that once I'm set up I can find a rifle shooter out at the lake who's never shot a crossbow to test that theory as well.
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
And, there is the argument. The average bow guy can't make those 100 yard shots. But!!! The average xgun guy can...... ( being both are set up for it)The bow guys that can make those shot, have more skill, patience, experience and practice to make those shots. And yes, they will out shoot xguns, because of the attributes listed.

Once tuned to 100 yds, anyone who has shot a gun, should be able to hit a target at 100 with a xgun...and even pass it to his buddies, with the similar results....

Heck, I'm pretty confident my 3 yr old could make those shots with a bi pod, on a rest with a xgun! Hoping to try it this week !
you really need to stop using the self initiated xguns. kind of a slap in the face to guys that use horizontal bows.
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:28 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth View Post
And, there is the argument. The average bow guy can't make those 100 yard shots. But!!! The average xgun guy can.
Maybe on paper and at the range. But due to harvest success rates being essentially identical to compounds everywhere they hunt together...do tell? This apparent advantage will only be seen in Alberta? Lol, ok, if u say so.

Here's a thought, maybe the upside of easier distance shooting with a crossbow rested only, is easily offset by it's more single shot nature, clumsiness afield, requirement to shoot rested at I dare say anything over 40 yards to compete with compounds or beat them by a smidge, still have the same loopy trajectory requiring ranging and compensating for the distance at hand etc. Clearly the case otherwise harvest success stats would show different. Zero threat, I'll take my compound all day. Not sure if being forced to rest the crossbow is any kind of advantage on game inside 100, sounds like very few circumstance that would come in handy and be a disadvantage more often than not. Good luck with your argument that the crossbow isn't a bow though. In bowhunting....it's a bow, can't debate it anymore, too much proof out there.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:13 PM
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Fishnafterwork Fishnafterwork is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Maybe on paper and at the range. But due to harvest success rates being essentially identical to compounds everywhere they hunt together...do tell? This apparent advantage will only be seen in Alberta? Lol, ok, if u say so.

Here's a thought, maybe the upside of easier distance shooting with a crossbow rested only, is easily offset by it's more single shot nature, clumsiness afield, requirement to shoot rested at I dare say anything over 40 yards to compete with compounds or beat them by a smidge, still have the same loopy trajectory requiring ranging and compensating for the distance at hand etc. Clearly the case otherwise harvest success stats would show different. Zero threat, I'll take my compound all day. Not sure if being forced to rest the crossbow is any kind of advantage on game inside 100, sounds like very few circumstance that would come in handy and be a disadvantage more often than not. Good luck with your argument that the crossbow isn't a bow though. In bowhunting....it's a bow, can't debate it anymore, too much proof out there.
Good post
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:21 PM
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RayM77 RayM77 is offline
 
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Great post ehntr! Thanks for presenting some great facts. Reading some of the follow up posts sure make me glad I renewed my ABA membership. I really support the great things they have done to help keep Alberta's bow seasons and opertunities the way they are.
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