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View Poll Results: Would You Support Volunteer Police Departments?
Yes 79 45.14%
No 96 54.86%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:54 AM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
 
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I voted no.

Too risky, too many rambos will apply.
x2 Great way to guarantee some fatherless (most applicants will be male) children when things go south.
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  #92  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:00 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Says the guy with 2200 officers within 40 minutes of his place.
And yet.. Those 2200 officers still were not able to curtail the crime we had. Hell, Just like your community, they could care less, as there were more serious crimes they were handling.

It was our community members that decided enough was enough. In fact, You can't go down any street/alley/pathway in our neighborhood without at least one camera catching you, not to mention the step up in security systems. Between the vehicle thefts/b&E's/etc, it was rare for a night to go by without something happening. A couple well placed GPS trackers led to some high speed chases, and guess what? Crime is now down in our neighborhood. Word got out, that the easy pickens were not more..

Yet, the police have not increased patrols.
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  #93  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:00 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fitzy View Post
Oh so you're not really training them then? Just like a weekend camp or what? Sort of a this is what a bad guy looks like here's your gun and badge routine?

.... sounds like that's gonna work out

If they're done right they do work. Do you have a neighbourhood watch program? Or just a neighbor that saw someone? Because those are 2 different things.
Are you trying to say the Reserves and Volunteer Fire Departments aren't trained because they train during the week and on weekends? And Neighborhood watches only work if people get arrested. They dont work when people steal different trucks every few days, change license plates, and pull guns on people.
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  #94  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:05 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
And yet.. Those 2200 officers still were not able to curtail the crime we had. Hell, Just like your community, they could care less, as there were more serious crimes they were handling.

It was our community members that decided enough was enough. In fact, You can't go down any street/alley/pathway in our neighborhood without at least one camera catching you, not to mention the step up in security systems. Between the vehicle thefts/b&E's/etc, it was rare for a night to go by without something happening. A couple well placed GPS trackers led to some high speed chases, and guess what? Crime is now down in our neighborhood. Word got out, that the easy pickens were not more..

Yet, the police have not increased patrols.
I know, how about we cut funding to the City of Calgary and use that money on rural departments. We'll take Calgary down to 350 officers, while the rest of the Province gets staffed more appropriately. See how quick you want your POC Peace Officers then.

Edit: I'll add if you feel it is a better solution to cut funding to the major centers to more adequately fund rural departments I'd be fine with not having POC police.
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  #95  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:08 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Are you trying to say the Reserves and Volunteer Fire Departments aren't trained because they train during the week and on weekends? And Neighborhood watches only work if people get arrested. They dont work when people steal different trucks every few days, change license plates, and pull guns on people.
I'm sorry Raab but do you not see the difference between a volunteer firefighter and volunteer police officer?

Last I was at a fire nobody was trying to shoot me while I was putting it out.

Weekend and evening training isn't going to cover that.
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  #96  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:12 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fitzy View Post
I'm sorry Raab but do you not see the difference between a volunteer firefighter and volunteer police officer?

Last I was at a fire nobody was trying to shoot me while I was putting it out.

Weekend and evening training isn't going to cover that.
It takes time to get trained, but once trained its not hard to keep up at it. Which is why I said it'd probably take 1 to 2 years before we seen members actively showing up to scenes. Could probably be trained fairly quickly how to do patrols though, and keep adding from there.

Also you seem to think that firefighting isn't dangerous. Maybe you should look at how many volunteer firemen have lost their life on calls.
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  #97  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:14 AM
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Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
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OK Raab, I'll go with your idea. So how many hours of training per year do you estimate it would take to train up a volunteer officer who can competently handle hostage situations, take downs of armed assailants, know the law, follow proper search and arrest procedures that stand up in court, and have the training to safely and effectively use their weapons, as well as make the decision on when it is appropriate to kill someone? And do this, unlike volunteer firemen, alone.

My second question is, how many people within 15 minutes of you will undertake the training and be on call and available at any time? If the answer is none, then this is all moot. As a measure, how many people near you are enlisted in the Armed Forces reserves?

Listen, I'm not pooh-poohing some sort of auxiliary force. But your proposal would have them doing the absolute most critical and dangerous task that police officers do, sometimes not very well even with all their training.
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In this case Oki has cut to to the exact heart of the matter!
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  #98  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:16 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Are you trying to say the Reserves and Volunteer Fire Departments aren't trained because they train during the week and on weekends? And Neighborhood watches only work if people get arrested. They dont work when people steal different trucks every few days, change license plates, and pull guns on people.
Your plan into help with apprehension is it not? One of the most difficult and dangerous parts of being a police officer ... You think Tuesday and Thursday night for an hour and every other weekend for a couple months is going to bring someone up to police officer levels?

Or do you want some untrained warrior wanna be hero running in guns blazing when some guy has a gun out around your wife?


I'd rethink the neighborhood watch thing.

I know it doesn't lead to ccw but you can't have everything.
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  #99  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:19 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
It takes time to get trained, but once trained its not hard to keep up at it. Which is why I said it'd probably take 1 to 2 years before we seen members actively showing up to scenes. Could probably be trained fairly quickly how to do patrols though, and keep adding from there.

Also you seem to think that firefighting isn't dangerous. Maybe you should look at how many volunteer firemen have lost their life on calls.
I was a volunteer firefighter Raab. Thanks for pointing out that fire is hot.

It still doesn't shoot at you.

So 2 years of weekend and evening training? Who's paying for this?

Edit. If you want to go on patrols set up a meeting with the RCMP they'll be more than happy to help with a neighbourhood watch program.

Patrol away.
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  #100  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:30 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
OK Raab, I'll go with your idea. So how many hours of training per year do you estimate it would take to train up a volunteer officer who can competently handle hostage situations, take downs of armed assailants, know the law, follow proper search and arrest procedures that stand up in court, and have the training to safely and effectively use their weapons, as well as make the decision on when it is appropriate to kill someone? And do this, unlike volunteer firemen, alone.

My second question is, how many people within 15 minutes of you will undertake the training and be on call and available at any time? If the answer is none, then this is all moot. As a measure, how many people near you are enlisted in the Armed Forces reserves?

Listen, I'm not pooh-poohing some sort of auxiliary force. But your proposal would have them doing the absolute most critical and dangerous task that police officers do, sometimes not very well even with all their training.
The whole point of POC is that the police would NOT respond alone. There would always be at least 2 members going, and depending on the call preferably 4-6. If we couldn't get the numbers you wait and go in with an RCMP officer or page in another department close by. To meet up before going to the scene.


As for training an initial paid 180 hours. To learn the basics before being allowed to patrol. After that 3 hours a week plus six 8 hour weekends in the first year for a total of 380 hours. An option should also be allowed for those who could take a full time course to do it over 1 month. This is just to get people ready for scenes, their training would continue into the next year with weekly 3 hour training but not have to commit to weekends. All training would be paid at normal wage. This is just a spitball of an idea of how the system could work. Obviously it would be open for consultation. Would definitely want input from both the RCMP and Solicitor General on what they feel would be the best for training needs and where we should focus our training efforts.

And my neighbor just recently got out of the reserves due to the drive, but was with the main force until his retirement. Several people I know would be open to this as a good way to serve the community.
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  #101  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:33 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fitzy View Post
Your plan into help with apprehension is it not? One of the most difficult and dangerous parts of being a police officer ... You think Tuesday and Thursday night for an hour and every other weekend for a couple months is going to bring someone up to police officer levels?

Or do you want some untrained warrior wanna be hero running in guns blazing when some guy has a gun out around your wife?


I'd rethink the neighborhood watch thing.

I know it doesn't lead to ccw but you can't have everything.
How often do you thing the police train for apprehension? Between ticketing, fatalities, domestics, mental health, and all the other calls they respond to? I don't think they spend a lot of time on apprehension training. They do use it daily, but were taught the basics in depot and built on it from there. The same way a POC volunteer force would.
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  #102  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:34 AM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fitzy View Post
I was a volunteer firefighter Raab. Thanks for pointing out that fire is hot.

It still doesn't shoot at you.

So 2 years of weekend and evening training? Who's paying for this?

Edit. If you want to go on patrols set up a meeting with the RCMP they'll be more than happy to help with a neighbourhood watch program.

Patrol away.
Maybe, maybe not. Lots of firemen in the States have been shot at.
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  #103  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:39 AM
The Spank The Spank is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
bring in castle law and the thieves and home invaders will think twice before committing crimes. The thieves don't fear our police or the courts, which is why rural crime keeps increasing.
100%!!!
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  #104  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:40 AM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
The whole point of POC is that the police would NOT respond alone. There would always be at least 2 members going, and depending on the call preferably 4-6. If we couldn't get the numbers you wait and go in with an RCMP officer or page in another department close by. To meet up before going to the scene.
I thought the point was to improve response time? Now they wait for police and respond with police? Doesn't really change anything from right now, does it?
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  #105  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:42 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
The whole point of POC is that the police would NOT respond alone. There would always be at least 2 members going, and depending on the call preferably 4-6. If we couldn't get the numbers you wait and go in with an RCMP officer or page in another department close by. To meet up before going to the scene.


As for training an initial paid 180 hours. To learn the basics before being allowed to patrol. After that 3 hours a week plus six 8 hour weekends in the first year for a total of 380 hours. An option should also be allowed for those who could take a full time course to do it over 1 month. This is just to get people ready for scenes, their training would continue into the next year with weekly 3 hour training but not have to commit to weekends. All training would be paid at normal wage. This is just a spitball of an idea of how the system could work. Obviously it would be open for consultation. Would definitely want input from both the RCMP and Solicitor General on what they feel would be the best for training needs and where we should focus our training efforts.

And my neighbor just recently got out of the reserves due to the drive, but was with the main force until his retirement. Several people I know would be open to this as a good way to serve the community.
So if my tax dollars are going to pay for something I want a provincial police force. Not people who failed the psych test

I don't see volenteerimg as the way to go. Might work ok. Right up until a shot is fired or there's a chase.... or one of the million what it's that are out there when dealing with liability. There are better options.

Rural crime and justice are pretty much my main concern in provincial politics. I've spoken with Richard Starke about it many times. It's the number 1 call his office gets. I told him straight out that I don't care who it is or what party they belong to. The first person to put crime and justice reform front and center will get my vote in any up coming election.

That's what is impacting the people around me on a daily basis. We are doing what we can.
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  #106  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:47 AM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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Maybe, maybe not. Lots of firemen in the States have been shot at.
Rural alberta isn't the States Raab.
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  #107  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:48 AM
sgill808 sgill808 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
Because he wants to carry guns and have to ability to use them at any time he feels fit..
This is exactly it.
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  #108  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:55 AM
bobtodrick bobtodrick is offline
 
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Raab...so your 'volunteers' will have to go through a course, pass it and take regular updates to their training.
Uhhh...just like a police officer??
Anyone willing to do all that, and then work a shift on a regular basis might, just might thing...I can do exactly what Raab is describing...AND GET PAID FOR IT.
Why would anyone (as you suggest) do nearly everything a LEO does, trainingwise and not just do it for a job.
I don't see anyone taking all the training your suggesting to do it once a week or so...it's going to be full time job commitment they way you describe it.
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  #109  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:59 AM
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bobalong bobalong is offline
 
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Although raabs idea may not be perfect the fact is it appears, he like many other of us rural people are desperate for help. Many of us know what we could like to do, but we are not there....yet. Please don't insult us by even mentioning the RCMP.....THEY ARE COMPLETELY USELESS with regard to rural crime.

A provincial police force is the only thing that is going to help, the RCMP only care about gun crime, speed traps, and photo-ops at the school or town parade. Something to try and make them look involved in the community in a positive way, or collect money, when their actions prove they couldn't care less about the community they live in.

An RCMP officer at the request of our town council came out to give a talk on rural crime. All he could talk about was what we should be doing, cameras, lock stuff up etc, all good ideas but when I asked what they were doing the response was shocking.

I asked how many night patrols they had in a week in our area, the answer was none, they don't have a shift past 6:00 PM, just an officer on call. I was not asking for specific times just generally. Then I asked if you (the RCMP) have determined that about 95% of the theft happens between 1 and 5AM how do you expect to stop theft and catch anybody when there are no RCMP working. His response was.........somewhat apologetic but completely useless.

After the scenario a couple of weeks ago around Lloyd where three ladies were killed by a truck thief, the idea of punting the RCMP would seem like a necessity. They are not only not preventing crime, in this case it would seem they actually contributed to it....the death of three ladies. The RCMP then release a statement about the vehicle chase that they were just following policy, and then announced to vehicle thieves that they only chase stolen vehicles for a few minutes and then let them go.........the apparent laziness of the RCMP is only rivaled by their stupidity with regard to vehicle theft.

I don't know how such a respected police force could turn into such a bunch of pencil pushers, but what I do know is that they have to go and the sooner the better!!
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  #110  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:04 PM
covey ridge covey ridge is offline
 
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I live in central alberta east. People are fed up with the crime and I think it's just a matter of time till someone takes the law into their own hands. Police are basically nowhere to be seen and response times are ridiculous. I little more patrol time would definitely help. If the cops would get out at night and patrol the small towns and pull over the odd guy late at night on the highways I'm sure they would be stumble upon the odd criminal. You see them make a pass thru town at 3pm on a Sunday...never at night. I'm not sure what the logic is. Alot of people out here have given up on the police and are talking crazy about vigilante type action and I hardly blame them. Sad state of affairs.
I agree that there are not enough RCMP to police rural Alberta. Since the RCMP often have only have one member working alone, the safest place for him/her is to remain in the detachment. I think rural Albertans deserve more police and if the RCMP can not supply them, then there should be a Provincial Police Force.
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  #111  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:06 PM
covey ridge covey ridge is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Is it better if I just shoot the guy who shows up at my place with a gun? If you dont want TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS doing the work then I want castle doctrine and the right to carry.
I think that this is what this is about.
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  #112  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:09 PM
covey ridge covey ridge is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 243 wild cat View Post
Quote:
No one will ever tell me that i have no right to protect my family
I will tell you that you have that right!
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  #113  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:13 PM
fitzy fitzy is offline
 
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I think that this is what this is about.
I think that's obvious.
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  #114  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:18 PM
JB_AOL JB_AOL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
I agree that there are not enough RCMP to police rural Alberta. Since the RCMP often have only have one member working alone, the safest place for him/her is to remain in the detachment. I think rural Albertans deserve more police and if the RCMP can not supply them, then there should be a Provincial Police Force.
I agree, but it all comes down to money.. RCMP can't supply the needed manpower as they don't have the money to supply it. A provincial police force will be no different, unless we are willing to pay for it. So why not just pay more money to RCMP, and untie their hands... Fix the legal system.
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  #115  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:20 PM
covey ridge covey ridge is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post

And the 40 minutes response time is a conservative estimate. They took over an hour to get here for one of the robberies, and never made it all the way on the other.
So if it would take the officer in charge of your group of volunteers that^^^^ long to get to your situation, would you attempt to resolve an armed standoff without him/her being present?
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  #116  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:38 PM
covey ridge covey ridge is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
. 4-6 guys show up with Semi Auto rifles and shotguns you have your scene controlled fairly quickly. Instead these idiots pull a gun on the owners take off then go do it again later. Maybe we should round up these criminals and come put them in your neighborhood. See if your patrol idea will work on crackheads that dont think logically.
So how would you control this scene quickly? Sure you and your volunteers have your rifles and shot guns, but your perps are crack heads with guns of their own and they now have the landowners wife and children at gun point and they don't want to give up. What do you do then? You may be six against two? Well what now? Are you going to shoot it out? Are you going to negotiate?

Then one of the perps demands you back off or one of the hostages die. or they are going to take a hostage and the next move is up to you. Well volunteer, what is your next move?
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  #117  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:46 PM
covey ridge covey ridge is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JB_AOL View Post
I agree, but it all comes down to money.. RCMP can't supply the needed manpower as they don't have the money to supply it. A provincial police force will be no different, unless we are willing to pay for it. So why not just pay more money to RCMP, and untie their hands... Fix the legal system.
I am willing to pay more!
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  #118  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:03 PM
coastalhunter coastalhunter is offline
 
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I support vigilante justice.
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  #119  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:38 PM
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bobalong bobalong is offline
 
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
I agree that there are not enough RCMP to police rural Alberta. Since the RCMP often have only have one member working alone, the safest place for him/her is to remain in the detachment. I think rural Albertans deserve more police and if the RCMP can not supply them, then there should be a Provincial Police Force.
The "safest place", I wouldn't want to see an RCMP hurt or anyone else, but we don't pay the RCMP to be safe, we pay them to keep us safe!
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  #120  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:44 PM
Rancid Crabtree Rancid Crabtree is offline
 
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I'd be willing to respond to a 911 call in my area ( say within 10 miles )
On a voluntary basis, just because someone needs help.
The technology exists to have a local quick response system in place, the trouble is modern police view the public as the adversary rather than allies.
The truth is most calls police respond to could be handled by a couple neighbors stopping in. Then if needed the local "deputy" can ask a officer to attend when needed.
Examples would be first contact at a domestic, accompanying EMS on calls where they want protection, accompany a officer who would otherwise have to wait for a on call officer.
Who of you rural residents wouldn't be willing to respond to a neighbors 911 call while they wait for RCMP ?
I'd envision a pre screened group that agrees to be first on scene within their local community and work alongside the police. I also advocate a Alberta Policd force.
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