Another 'It's the owner not the dog' thread

[4K3OGH]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

It’s called schooling...... even homeschooling..... lots of socialization there bud.

Just in case you weren’t aware..

Not sure if youre referring to kids or dogs now... Regardless, I don't want the gov't telling me how to train my animals. I would think that most would agree, but thats neither here nor there....Bud.

[C.Noble]

My kids love their dogs. My blue fawn colored female passed away in Feb on a Saturday. The next day Jesse at 12 years old was crying and said that is literally the first day of his life that we didn't have a pitbull. I fostered and ended up keeping the female we have now the day following legacy's passing. I have discussed it at length with my wife and I really don't see a time where I wouldn't have one in my life. Everyone can hate them, or say they're vicious attack dogs, but for my money you can't find a better family dog.

[Twisted Canuck]

A very good friend of mine had a pit bull that sounds very much like C Noble's...he looked like a dalmation, and he was a big friendly suck his entire life, and never harmed a soul. On the other hand, the only serious dog bite I got was from a pit bull, unprovoked, as I walked down the sidewalk. The owner (and he was as sketchy as you can imagine, won't go into that as it happened in another country entirely) told the dog to 'sit' as I approached, which it did. I had stopped walking when the dog jumped up and challenged me in the middle of the sidewalk (it was chained to a post at the curb), then the owner says 'he never bites', go ahead. I took two steps further down the sidewalk and that dog bit me so fast and hard across the shin, I thought he'd cracked the bone. Luckily I was wearing heavy, high wellington boots and he didn't manage to penetrate the leather, but amazing the pressure of the bite still. And then the owner came rushing over (reeking of beer) and began to beat his dog with a heavy chain. The most appalling example of dog abuse I've ever seen. And so this would tend to support the bad owner/bad dog theory, good owner/good dog. But I also know a good family that is one child short today because of a 'good' dog. They don't own dogs anymore at all.

As an aside, my sister in law was mauled to death by Rottweilers, not Pits. But lo and behold, they are number 2 on the chart Ken put up. And speaking of Ken, shame on you big fella, scaring little dogs like that....

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

Not sure if youre referring to kids or dogs now... Regardless, I don't want the gov't telling me how to train my animals. I would think that most would agree, but thats neither here nor there....Bud.

You want nothing done about it..? Collateral damage ...?
..... or would you seek punishment for the owners after the dog maims or kills...? Cause punishments don’t work as deterrents..... one ever thinks their little Fido would ever...


Hating govt for the sake of it being ‘da gubmint’ is silly.

[4K3OGH]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You want nothing done about it..? Collateral damage ...?
..... or would you seek punishment for the owners after the dog maims or kills...? Cause punishments don’t work as deterrents..... one ever thinks their little Fido would ever...


Hating govt for the sake of it being ‘da gubmint’ is silly.

Im not sure what the solution looks like, unfortunately any breed has the potential to be unpredictable. Saying the owner should be held responsible is one approach, and in a lot of cases I totally agree that a lack of awareness and training on the owners part is the reason for some attacks. On the other hand, however, I am sure there is times that a dog will attack without any previous signs of aggression, in that case blame the animal 100%

Saying that all pitbulls will kill, or attack at some point is just ignorant. There is a lot of pitties out there (including mine) that are beautiful trustworthy animals.

[jstubbs]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

Not sure if youre referring to kids or dogs now... Regardless, I don't want the gov't telling me how to train my animals. I would think that most would agree, but thats neither here nor there....Bud.

Oh for Pete’s sake, nobody here is trying to support a system where the government is going to come lock you up if they find out you trained your dog in a way that’s not prescribed by government training.

The idea is before being able to adopt or purchase a dog, you have to take a one time training course designed to educate and teach potential new dog owners what is involved in training and owning a dog, and various successful training techniques, some do’s and don’ts of training and ownership, etc. so ideally there won’t be so many clueless and moronic owners (although there always will be, but ideally it will cut down on them).

Is that truly such a far fetched and deranged idea? Again, I prefer the government to stay out things that they absolutely don’t need to be in, but when children and other people’s dogs are being mauled/killed because certain idiot owners have no idea what they are doing when it comes to owning an animal, then sometimes some minor gov’t intervention is needed.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

Saying that all pitbulls will kill, or attack at some point is just ignorant. There is a lot of pitties out there (including mine) that are beautiful trustworthy animals.

Nobody is ignorantly suggesting that ALL pit bulls (or rottweilers) will attack and kill at some point. But some always seem to (even beautiful trustworthy ones in the right circumstance, whether you think so or not). It's one thing when you are rolling the dice with your own life, or your kids' lives...but too often it is somebody else, minding their own business, walking their dog, playing with their kid....who pays the price.

Put another way. If you know there is a field, with 10,000 land mines buried in it that are by design meant to maim or kill, but only 100 of them are actually fused to detonate and the rest are inert, would you still go play frisbee or fetch in that field? Or would you have your neighbor's kids play frisbee with you there, because the odds are 99% that it's all going to be just fine.....?

Dogs aren't inert, inanimate objects. They have the potential to chose, which can include disobedience to any owner good or bad. Most often the result is negligible and not even noteworthy. Some breeds have the potential to leave much more tangible results.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

Saying that all pitbulls will kill, or attack at some point is just ignorant. There is a lot of pitties out there (including mine) that are beautiful trustworthy animals.

Exactly what every owner of a pit bull that has attacked someone has said.

[bessiedog]

I see zero problems with running a course much like our firearms PAL course for all dogs.

Reduces bites
Increases the over all welfare of dogs.

I have had one serous encounter with an out of control dog coming at my wife and kids.


It went very poorly for the dog and owner.





now if we can only issue licences for birthing/raising children.......

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

Exactly what every owner of a pit bull that has attacked someone has said.

Exactly, I have never heard an owner say, ya I could see that happening a mile away.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

...now if we can only issue licences for birthing/raising children.......

If they'd had that about 50 years ago, pretty sure my parents would have failed that test, and I wouldn't be around to win Crown Royal from you.

[Sashi]

The real cure is a small weight in the pit bulls ear, preferably lead and preferably inserted with a small pistol.

[4K3OGH]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

Exactly what every owner of a pit bull that has attacked someone has said.

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Exactly, I have never heard an owner say, ya I could see that happening a mile away.

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Nobody is ignorantly suggesting that ALL pit bulls (or rottweilers) will attack and kill at some point. But some always seem to (even beautiful trustworthy ones in the right circumstance, whether you think so or not). It's one thing when you are rolling the dice with your own life, or your kids' lives...but too often it is somebody else, minding their own business, walking their dog, playing with their kid....who pays the price.

Put another way. If you know there is a field, with 10,000 land mines buried in it that are by design meant to maim or kill, but only 100 of them are actually fused to detonate and the rest are inert, would you still go play frisbee or fetch in that field? Or would you have your neighbor's kids play frisbee with you there, because the odds are 99% that it's all going to be just fine.....?

Dogs aren't inert, inanimate objects. They have the potential to chose, which can include disobedience to any owner good or bad. Most often the result is negligible and not even noteworthy. Some breeds have the potential to leave much more tangible results.

What is the solution? Exterminate the breed?

Sure you can try and implement a training course that is mandated in order to own a dog, it wont accomplish a thing though, how many of you take mandated training through work that goes in one ear and out the other?

[4K3OGH]

Originally Posted by Sashi

The real cure is a small weight in the pit bulls ear, preferably lead and preferably inserted with a small pistol.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

What is the solution? Exterminate the breed?

Well, that would certainly solve the problem, wouldn't it? And there are lots of other really great breeds of dogs out there that never seem to kill anyone, so you could get one of those instead. It's not like 'pitties' are the only dog available. If it saves the life of one kid, or realistically a bunch of kids and adults....why wouldn't you give up your 'right' to own them? Get a Schnauzer, or a collie.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Well, that would certainly solve the problem, wouldn't it? And there are lots of other really great breeds of dogs out there that never seem to kill anyone, so you could get one of those instead. It's not like 'pitties' are the only dog available. If it saves the life of one kid, or realistically a bunch of kids and adults....why wouldn't you give up your 'right' to own them? Get a Schnauzer, or a collie.

Your missing the cool factor. All the cool kids have one.

[fitzy]

lets swap pitbull for AR15 and see if the arguments for and against stay the same cause there's an awful lot of similarities in them

[bat119]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Your missing the cool factor. All the cool kids have one.

You mean rescue dogs it only cool to have a dog that's been neglected then "rescued"

I don't know why anybody in the city would want a large dog of any breed, Labradoddles are cute but who wants a 125 lb. knucklehead?

[4K3OGH]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Well, that would certainly solve the problem, wouldn't it? And there are lots of other really great breeds of dogs out there that never seem to kill anyone, so you could get one of those instead. It's not like 'pitties' are the only dog available. If it saves the life of one kid, or realistically a bunch of kids and adults....why wouldn't you give up your 'right' to own them? Get a Schnauzer, or a collie.

I suppose it would, but where do you draw the line? What happens when 5 labs maul and kill someone, does that breed get exterminated?

And thanks for the suggestion, I have a collie as well!

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Your missing the cool factor. All the cool kids have one.

I think thats one of the big issues with the breed, a lot of " losers" get them when they have no idea how to handle a dog. The breed isnt the only factor, if I beat the sh*t out of a lab, all day, every day then itll attack someone at some point as well.

Ive said before that its a mix of owners, and just bad dogs. But keep in mind pitbulls arent the only dog out there attacking people. As reported earlier in this post, the breed with the most reported # of bites is a Lab.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by fitzy

lets swap pitbull for AR15 and see if the arguments for and against stay the same cause there's an awful lot of similarities in them

Straw man argument, as there is no similarity between them. One is inanimate and needs a human to operate it to cause it to function as a tool or weapon. A dog is an animal that can and will act without any human needed to squeeze the trigger. But it does seem to be the argument of misdirection that pit bull advocates like to trot out to gun owners, and make the 'banning' comparison. It is disingenuous at best, or ignorantly obtuse as an argument.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

I suppose it would, but where do you draw the line? What happens when 5 labs maul and kill someone, does that breed get exterminated?

And thanks for the suggestion, I have a collie as well!

As reported earlier in this post, the breed with the most reported # of bites is a Lab.

That is the point, where do you draw the line? But I'd suggest if you drew the line at the worst two offenders as shown in the chart Ken supplied (pit bulls and rottweilers), you eliminate 75.8% of the deaths by mauling, and only God knows how many serious attacks. That is a significant reduction right there. Keep the collie, good choice.

Then, you don't let packs of Labs get together, everyone knows they are bad characters when they run in packs..... And yes, labs do have most recorded bites, but the statistic is heavily skewed, as they are one of the most popular breeds by number. If you did a statistical analysis of bites per thousand of the breeds, they may not rate as high? And either way, labs have more incidents of biting, but they don't seem to maul and kill as a rule, do they?

So draw the line at the first two on the list. Sorry to all those who own them, but after you have shoveled dirt on your sister in law's coffin and watched her kids and grand kids falling apart with grief, and tried to comfort your wife because her sister was viciously killed...maybe you will look at it differently.

[4K3OGH]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

That is the point, where do you draw the line? But I'd suggest if you drew the line at the worst two offenders as shown in the chart Ken supplied (pit bulls and rottweilers), you eliminate 75.8% of the deaths by mauling, and only God knows how many serious attacks. That is a significant reduction right there. Keep the collie, good choice.

Then, you don't let packs of Labs get together, everyone knows they are bad characters when they run in packs..... And yes, labs do have most recorded bites, but the statistic is heavily skewed, as they are one of the most popular breeds by number. If you did a statistical analysis of bites per thousand of the breeds, they may not rate as high? And either way, labs have more incidents of biting, but they don't seem to maul and kill as a rule, do they?

So draw the line at the first two on the list. Sorry to all those who own them, but after you have shoveled dirt on your sister in law's coffin and watched her kids and grand kids falling apart with grief, and tried to comfort your wife because her sister was viciously killed...maybe you will look at it differently.

Unfortunately we can go back and forth on this all day, in my opinion my pit bull is just as likely to attack me as your schnauzer is. Either way this has been fun.

I am truly sorry for the trauma that has been inflicted on your family due to a bad dog, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

If you're ever in my area I would be more than happy to introduce you to " Kingston" my pitbull and maybe your opinion may shift a little.

Cheers

[Dewey Cox]

I think dog ownership in general has kind of evolved into something weird.
I don’t know how to exactly put it into words, but I think the value of a dogs life compared to the value of human life isn’t as blatantly obvious to everyone as it used to be.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

Unfortunately we can go back and forth on this all day, in my opinion my pit bull is just as likely to attack me as your schnauzer is. Either way this has been fun.

I am truly sorry for the trauma that has been inflicted on your family due to a bad dog, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

If you're ever in my area I would be more than happy to introduce you to " Kingston" my pitbull and maybe your opinion may shift a little.

Cheers

I'd be happy to meet your dog....and you are right, my schnauzer is very protective and probably more likely to attack you than your pitbull. Then you'd have to give your leg a shake to get him off....meeting Kingston won't change my opinion though. I have friends who have pits, and they are all great dogs, never hurt anyone. I know they aren't all stone cold killers, I'm not under some misconception that they are all just on a hair trigger waiting to kill.

Really, it is a tough situation. I love dogs. I wouldn't lightly want any breed exterminated, it's appalling to me. And I honestly agree that in most instances it is an inexperienced, or negligent, or bad owner that is at fault. But since you can't ban stupid or ignorant people from owning a potentially deadly animal, what do you do that is actually reasonable? It's a lousy deal any way you slice it, but especially for the victims and their families.

[Passthru]

Funny I didn’t see this thread. One month ago a kid was walking his wiener dog down my street and I was about to leave for the weekend so I was packing. Then I hear him screaming “Help! Somebody help!” I look up and one of the neighbors dogs got out of the backyard and was tearing into the kids wiener dog that he was walking. Nobody was around so I sprint over and grab this dog by the collar but it had already done the damage. It was a horror show, pieces were hanging out. I bring this dog back to the owner, the wiener dog was rushed to the vet and I learn later that the kids dog had to be put down. Guess what breed the dog that attacked was? You could try blaming it on the owner for their gate blowing open but why an unprovoked attack? My opinions on these dogs are changing

[270person]

Originally Posted by Sashi

The real cure is a small weight in the pit bulls ear, preferably lead and preferably inserted with a small pistol.

Or large. Let's not discriminate. Not a damn thing wrong with 50 AE.

[Big Sky]

Are people with zero carpentry skills attracted to pitbulls? More often than not, when you read about an attack, the dog has bust through a hole in the fence, or a shoddy gate or the screen door of a house.

It seems like a non-secure yard is often a factor.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Pit bulls are very easy to recognize, they are the ones with their jaws locked on other dogs or people. Ken you nailed it with the lethal dog chart. End of conversation!

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by 4K3OGH

What is the solution? Exterminate the breed?

Sure you can try and implement a training course that is mandated in order to own a dog, it wont accomplish a thing though, how many of you take mandated training through work that goes in one ear and out the other?

Also have had a lot of at work training sessions where I've learned a thing or two.
But I guess that's my experience and not yours

[hagen1645]

Ban all assault Dogs.. And the victim should sue the owner of the Dog