paper tuning a speed bow

[backyard]

So I was told that paper tuning a speed bow was a waste of time cause of it shooting so fast its too hard
I did paper tuning my rpm and didn't find it too hard just took a little time... now just too tune my arrows but haven't found much info on this

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Paper tuning for close to 40 years I have only had 4 bows that wouldnt paper tune...two I could tune perfect with a Hooter Shooter or by changing cam to my draw and tune bow to myself...but not for the shooters...all had replaced cams, new limbs, swapped limbs, and every trick in the book... everything but new riser ...which seemed square but could have been a factor, on two manufacturer said no


All were what I would classify as top shooters...

Many wont even paper tune modern bows for exactally the reason you stated ...it may take time...hours, days for some of us anal tuners...but most end up punching bullets...

I like paper tuning because it can tell you so much...most will walkback and group tune and call it good...which most are...however with walkback and group tune its still possible to have arrows fishtail, porpoise, or both oscilate...

In a sence you did tune your arrows...

Neil

[3blade]

Not sure exactly what you're asking...do you mean align blades to fletching? Borderline OCD but every little bit helps. Re: spine, if you can shoot bullet holes then you are using the correct spine.

modern carbon arrows are spine & straightness tested to tolerances with lasers, doubt there is much to do there. you can weigh shafts and components to ensure consistency. IMO if you paper tune and walk-back tune, you should be good.

as far as broadheads go, if they spin true, then go shoot and see how each model works for your setup. Many bow/arrow combinations will show a definite preference.

[Diamondhitch]

Paper tune to get close, then shoot 50yd group with field points then broadheads and fine tune until both are in the same group. If your form is inconsistent paper tuning will not work but anyone can get tings as close as can be with the above method. I also find spinning my arrows a bit stiff helps with broadheads.

[Leather burner]

Does anyone know the history on how it was concluded that broadheads and field points need to hit the same point for the bow to be tuned? They have different drag, and similar to bullets with different ballistic coefficients, it is logical to me that they should not hit precicely the same spot. We re zero our scopes when we change ammunition, why do we start tinkering with our rests when we add a fixed blade with a completely different shape, and different drag, that hits a different spot than a field point, but still flies true and groups well?

[3blade]

Originally Posted by Leather burner

Does anyone know the history on how it was concluded that broadheads and field points need to hit the same point for the bow to be tuned? They have different drag, and similar to bullets with different ballistic coefficients, it is logical to me that they should not hit precicely the same spot. We re zero our scopes when we change ammunition, why do we start tinkering with our rests when we add a fixed blade with a completely different shape, and different drag, that hits a different spot than a field point, but still flies true and groups well?

Nope. Subsonic and supersonic ballistic differences, along with the propulsion and steering mechanism differences between the two, render comparisons irrelevant. broadhead design does impact arrow flight, however there are many to choose from so it is simply a matter of trying different ones until you find one that groups well. Acceptable groups in bowhunting archery are significantly larger than rifles of any sort. Ex a 2 inch arrow/broadhead group at sixty yards is excellent. A 2 inch bullet group at 60 would earn that gun a place in the buy and sell.

Paper tuning lets you know the arrow is flying straight (which is the most efficient flight path). It isn't possible to paper tune with broadheads, therefore it is done with field points. A properly tuned bow should shoot (spin tested, weighed) broadheads and field points to the same POI within the acceptable margin of error.

The idea of spec tune, paper tune, walk back tune with field points....then moving your rest for broadheads, is complete nonsense. If you move your rest then all your previous tuning for arrow flight is undone. Same goes for moving your sight; if it doesn't go in the same spot it ain't flying straight.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Not sure exactly what you're asking...do you mean align blades to fletching? Borderline OCD but every little bit helps. Re: spine, if you can shoot bullet holes then you are using the correct spine.

modern carbon arrows are spine & straightness tested to tolerances with lasers, doubt there is much to do there. you can weigh shafts and components to ensure consistency. IMO if you paper tune and walk-back tune, you should be good.

as far as broadheads go, if they spin true, then go shoot and see how each model works for your setup. Many bow/arrow combinations will show a definite preference.

I wasnt really asking ...just stating that you..by paper tuning and as mentioned above you HAVE tuned your arrows...

Neil

[Leather burner]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Nope. Subsonic and supersonic ballistic differences, along with the propulsion and steering mechanism differences between the two... .

Drag is drag is it not? More aerodynamic drag = more resistance, is it not reasonable to expect a shift in point of impact, whether we are talking bullets or arrows?

[kujoseto]

Drag is drag, but there are differences when comparing greatly different speeds. Think of it like with curling. The slower speed gives the drag more time to affect things over the same distance.

[Diamondhitch]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Nope. Subsonic and supersonic ballistic differences, along with the propulsion and steering mechanism differences between the two, render comparisons irrelevant. broadhead design does impact arrow flight, however there are many to choose from so it is simply a matter of trying different ones until you find one that groups well. Acceptable groups in bowhunting archery are significantly larger than rifles of any sort. Ex a 2 inch arrow/broadhead group at sixty yards is excellent. A 2 inch bullet group at 60 would earn that gun a place in the buy and sell.

Paper tuning lets you know the arrow is flying straight (which is the most efficient flight path). It isn't possible to paper tune with broadheads, therefore it is done with field points. A properly tuned bow should shoot (spin tested, weighed) broadheads and field points to the same POI within the acceptable margin of error.

The idea of spec tune, paper tune, walk back tune with field points....then moving your rest for broadheads, is complete nonsense. If you move your rest then all your previous tuning for arrow flight is undone. Same goes for moving your sight; if it doesn't go in the same spot it ain't flying straight.

A perfect tear with field points can be achieved within a small range of adjustment. If you have a well paper tuned bow ad find the broadhead groups a little off at long range, just try a minute adjustment. I think you will be pleased, broadheads will group with field points and will still tear perfect.

In answer to leather burners question and relevant to this is because when you put the wings (broadhead) on the front of an aircraft (arrow) minute changes in alignment (oscillations after the shot) have an exaggerated effect on the trajectory of the object (arrow). Different broadheads will impart different amounts of lateral force to the front of the arrow due to their unique drag on the front of the arrow. eliminate or at least lessen these oscillations and the net effect will be minimized (they will hit at or close to the same spot).

A the unique bullet/barrel time/acceleration curve/barrel friction of any given bullet/load will change the harmonics of the barrel causing the bullet to leave the barrel at a different point of its "whip" causing a different POI. Devices such as the "boss" are designed to tune this barrel whip so that the point of coincidence (dead spot) in a barrels oscillation is at the tip of the barrel with a given load. This is what happens when we working up an accurate load, whether or not we know it, that is why our load shot well.

Completely different physics involved with arrow and bullet.

[Leather burner]

Thanks, appreciate the response. I have tried the broadhead tuning routine by moving my rest slightly, but no amount of tweaking could bring the Montecs up to the same elevation as my field points at 20 yards, all I did was destroy my paper tune. Chatted with the owner of a well renowned and highly respected bow shop about this, and was asked if a field point and a broadhaed look the same, to which the answer is obviously "no". Next question was why do you expect them to fly the same? I agree with his point, he helped me get my paper tune back, I switched to the Montec, which grouped well, but low and left, and resighted for the broadheads. I have grouped them at 5 inches at 60 yards when I'm on my game, which I am plenty happy with. It would be great if they hit with the field points, because it's a pain always practicing with broadheads, but they don't. My understanding is the Montecs are one of the best designs for good flight, so not convinced shopping around for other head designs would be money or time well spent.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by L.O.S.T.Arrow

I wasnt really asking ...just stating that you..by paper tuning and as mentioned above you HAVE tuned your arrows...

Neil

My bad, was replying to the OP. Think you got the tuning part figured out.

Originally Posted by Leather burner

Thanks, appreciate the response. I have tried the broadhead tuning routine by moving my rest slightly, but no amount of tweaking could bring the Montecs up to the same elevation as my field points at 20 yards, all I did was destroy my paper tune. Chatted with the owner of a well renowned and highly respected bow shop about this, and was asked if a field point and a broadhaed look the same, to which the answer is obviously "no". Next question was why do you expect them to fly the same? I agree with his point, he helped me get my paper tune back, I switched to the Montec, which grouped well, but low and left, and resighted for the broadheads. I have grouped them at 5 inches at 60 yards when I'm on my game, which I am plenty happy with. It would be great if they hit with the field points, because it's a pain always practicing with broadheads, but they don't. My understanding is the Montecs are one of the best designs for good flight, so not convinced shopping around for other head designs would be money or time well spent.

Diamondhitch is right, operative word being MINUTE adjustment. And always checking your paper tune post-adjustment.

Low only could be drag (unlikely noticeable at archery speeds), low and left indicates planing. An arrow that isn't delivering energy straight into the target will lead to reduced penetration. How much? Who knows. But it's not as efficient as it should be, and if you are shooting at big game at 60 you need all the penetration you can get. The difference between one lung and two might be 3 elk miles or no recovery at all. Broad head costs will seem like a silly thing to worry about.

If you can make an improvement, why not? Not suggesting you have to buy every kind of BH. Muzzy MX 3, QAD exodus, and/or slick trick original, or whatever you decide. buy one kind, go shoot, see what happens. Might be pleasantly surprised. And not have to shoot with broadheads all the time.

Best of luck.

[backyard]

Originally Posted by Leather burner

Thanks, appreciate the response. I have tried the broadhead tuning routine by moving my rest slightly, but no amount of tweaking could bring the Montecs up to the same elevation as my field points at 20 yards, all I did was destroy my paper tune. Chatted with the owner of a well renowned and highly respected bow shop about this, and was asked if a field point and a broadhaed look the same, to which the answer is obviously "no". Next question was why do you expect them to fly the same? I agree with his point, he helped me get my paper tune back, I switched to the Montec, which grouped well, but low and left, and resighted for the broadheads. I have grouped them at 5 inches at 60 yards when I'm on my game, which I am plenty happy with. It would be great if they hit with the field points, because it's a pain always practicing with broadheads, but they don't. My understanding is the Montecs are one of the best designs for good flight, so not convinced shopping around for other head designs would be money or time well spent.

What bow do you have cause with my rpm I have to twist cables and yokes to broadhead tune, not the rest(most bowtech are like this). That's why I'm using mechanicals so I don't have to mess with it as much...

[Leather burner]

Originally Posted by rpm360

What bow do you have cause with my rpm I have to twist cables and yokes to broadhead tune, not the rest(most bowtech are like this). That's why I'm using mechanicals so I don't have to mess with it as much...

Hi, it's an APA M6, still with the scorpion string. I think I'll build a draw board and check my timing. My mechanicals were fine as well, but don't trust them on elk. Thanks for the tip.