Definition of an "all around" Alberta big game rifle.

[bagwan]

I think rather than calibre as there are plenty that meet Duff's criteria think of your overall use. Do you walk and stalk? Do you hunt on the prairie? Are you mostly in the bush or patient and wait for close, sure, shots? Are you getting older? Will you physically be able to meet your criteria with a heavier weapon? I ask these pertinent questions because I personally have been forced to change because of physical problems and age. My Sako 75 weighs a ton after two miles and it has been relegated to the locker and its too bad as it, bar none, has been the best out of the box shooter I have owned (over 20). I have been using a T3 270 the past year and it enables me to keep hunting that much more. Duff, I hope this helps as it is somewhat more in line with your original post. My 2 Cents

[Battle River]

I you follow Duff's Criteria to the letter Re: recoil must be manageable for the average hunter, then the 308 win with 165 gr bullets is the top end of the caliber spectrum. In my annual sight ins at my personal range for a myriad of hunting relatives and buddies, I feel that none should use anything larger, as no-one with a 7mm rem mag, 30-06 with 180 gr, 300 win mag, or 300 wby mag, has yet to place 3 shots in a 10" circle at 300m, except my nephew with the 308 loading. These are "average" hunters who only shoot their rifles a week before season and a few gophers with their 22's.

[sbtennex]

Originally Posted by lurch

The other one I like is that boat tail bullets don't penetrate as well, so you should use flat based bullets for hunting.

Don't agree at all. Killed everything with handloaded 130 gr .270 Winchester Sierra BT for years, never had a problem. I now use a 165 Game King 7mm Rem Mag and it's a boat-tail as well and absolutely flattens moose and elk, don't care how big or how far, within reason. It carries over a ton of energy at 400 yards and believe it, retained energy is more than half the killing power equation in the real world.

I think he was saying that's another old wives' tale sbtennex...at least that's the way I read it. Pretty sure he wasn't putting down boattails.

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[Nait Hadya]

Marlin XLR in 45-70, 1330-2050 FPS, 300-405 gr bullets, reasonable weight and fun to shoot.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Battle River

I you follow Duff's Criteria to the letter Re: recoil must be manageable for the average hunter, then the 308 win with 165 gr bullets is the top end of the caliber spectrum. In my annual sight ins at my personal range for a myriad of hunting relatives and buddies, I feel that none should use anything larger, as no-one with a 7mm rem mag, 30-06 with 180 gr, 300 win mag, or 300 wby mag, has yet to place 3 shots in a 10" circle at 300m, except my nephew with the 308 loading. These are "average" hunters who only shoot their rifles a week before season and a few gophers with their 22's.

I'm with that totally! I shot a 30-06 for awhile and didn't enjoy it at the range(every caliber is fine in the field for the most part...at least at game it is )...moved to a .270 and love it at the range...i agree with your threshold ideas and they are pretty much exactly that for me also. The .270 and .308 are pretty close on the ft/lbs energy at the muzzle scale but i think the .308 might touch just a little harder on the shoulder from my seat of the pants experience and almost not 'fun' at the range(almost )...then again the 30-06 and .270 i shoot/shot are bolt guns and the two 308's i shot were lever guns(stock design probably not helping the lever guns and could have been all the difference?...but i still think they thumped a hair harder than the .270)...much more tolerable than the 30-06...people rave about the 30-06, been there...it works yeah...but thats all it did for me...i LOVE the .270....the .308 was just ok.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Battle River

I you follow Duff's Criteria to the letter Re: recoil must be manageable for the average hunter, then the 308 win with 165 gr bullets is the top end of the caliber spectrum. In my annual sight ins at my personal range for a myriad of hunting relatives and buddies, I feel that none should use anything larger, as no-one with a 7mm rem mag, 30-06 with 180 gr, 300 win mag, or 300 wby mag, has yet to place 3 shots in a 10" circle at 300m, except my nephew with the 308 loading. These are "average" hunters who only shoot their rifles a week before season and a few gophers with their 22's.

The situation discribed above has raised my ire.
I want to reply but I am at a loss for words that convey my utter disbelief and disgust to read such accounts.

[nekred]

Dick Unfortunately that describes the average hunter.... i agree with you!...

How many Wildlife certificates were sold in 2006....

If all those people were at the ranges practicing, we would need a lot more range space.... if they were practicing at places other than the range.... "the hills would be full of gunfire".......

The mjority of hunters where it is an activity istead of a passion like it is to most of us here!.... Practice very little....

Hard to get used to rifle especially recoil if you don't use it much more than a box of shells a year.

I use archery for an example.... 14000 bowhunting permits sold in 2006 and all the outdoor shoots I was at all over the province at most attendance was 150 people. Many of these were same folks. I believe I would be pushing it to say 1000 people attend one 3D shoot across province this is 7%....Benefit of doubt say 20% actually practice year round.... that leaves 73%.....

I belive we should have to have proficiency test with the tool of our choice to ensure that people can use their weapons effectively.....before getting a hunting license... this is mandatory in Hungary etc. ...

Unfortunately this would be more government meddling legislating what should be common sense!.....

[Dick284]

I agree nek:
What will it take for these sort of folks to realize they are more part of the problem than they will ever be part of the solution.
I dont want to see any more giggery pokery in the hunting world than anybody else, but unless the partime half, arsed majority wake up these sort of hoops will become reality.
Sad but true.

[Win94]

keep in mind as well though that their is alot of "elitism and snobbery" that i have seen at different rifle ranges that would discourage alot of people from going to ranges and practicing.

..............i also feel that alot of the people that whine about hunters not practicing enough would be the first to whine if the ranges were all full. Some people are just whiners. The well practiced sometimes do misplace their shots and lose their animals as well.

[Battle River]

Originally Posted by Dick284

The situation discribed above has raised my ire.
I want to reply but I am at a loss for words that convey my utter disbelief and disgust to read such accounts.

Of course it raises my ire too 7mmdick! It is extremely frustrating just trying to get rifles properly sighted in. In most cases i end up taking the last groups ,myself to verify POI at 100m. This is why I never allow anyone hunting with me to take any shots over 275 yards, as they really have less than 40% chance of a vital hit otherwise. This is why I believe that the "average Alberta rifle is a decent 308 win with 165 gr loads sighted 2.5" high at 100 yards.

Dick, I find it interesting to see you surprised at such accounts. As this is pretty much par for the course amoung the Alberta Hunting community. I would guess that less than 10% of hunters can put 3 of 4 shots in 10" circle at 250m with the current POI and load in their rifle. Luckily many areas have heavy bush and offer shots closer, where accurate shooting is not essential.

[Unregistered user]

Originally Posted by Battle River

I find it interesting to see you surprised at such accounts. As this is pretty much par for the course amoung the Alberta Hunting community. I would guess that less than 10% of hunters can put 3 of 4 shots in 10" circle at 250m with the current POI and load in their rifle. Luckily many areas have heavy bush and offer shots closer, where accurate shooting is not essential.

Par for the course is why we slowly lose our rights to own and use guns. How many of those casual shooter/hunters belong to a pro gun/hunting organization? Yep the same ones who bark the loudest about damned politicians and tree huggers takin' it all away.