Responsabilities of the hunter (RANT Warning) - Page 2

209x50 · #31 12-12-2007, 04:04 PM

Thank you Lurch.
My sister is a psychologist, one of her jobs is to work with men who are ordered by the court to attend her classes. These people are drunks, druggies, wife abusers, impaired drivers, you name it. She tries to teach socially acceptable ethics and behavior to her students. The first time through her success rate is south of 10% by the time they have committed the offence and been tried and sentenced for the third time her success rate is still south of 20%.
Do you see what I mean by you can't teach ethics? You attended some classes that you wanted something from, a very big difference from these people who who don't think they are doing wrong or just don't care.

#32 12-12-2007, 04:16 PM

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Donny Bear · #33 12-12-2007, 04:21 PM

Fine if you can't teach ethics you can help to create a culture through communication, nurturing , teaching and yes even Peer Presure. We can highten awareness and create standards in an environment like this that will speak to the majority of people. The ones who have no intrest will soon vacate, but it is possible to promote and create a culture of ethical hunters who work hard to promote our way of life build relationships and alliances out side of our own interests and present our cause with diligence. I have often rebutled people who claim to be in touch with the natural world with the argument that I am a hunter as much as my brother is not, I am! its my nature I was born a preditor I express my ethics and ask for the right to be who and what I am and sometimes I win an ally or at least get to a point of understanding.

209x50 · #34 12-12-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurch

Please tell me you are not comparing the hunting public to the folks you mention?

I realize the correlation that you are trying to make, but a court ordered course on how to bring someone mainstream is a far cry from a person trying to gain insight in to what is ethical in a hunting scenario. I am willing to give my hunting Brethren the benefit of the doubt.

Even if I were to use your suggested stats, I would think that 10-20% of the hunting community that would re-think taking shots that they wouldn't have before is still forward progression.

Perhaps I should have stated that instead of "you can be taught ethics", you can be taught how to think about ethics.

No I wasn't comparing these people to hunters. Although statistically there ARE hunters in the group. I'm just pointing out people need to want to change and the fellow who's post set off Dick's rant will more than likely be flabbergasted to see what people think of his relatives. We all judge ourselves by our own ethics, and they don't feel they are doing wrong. Talking about or trying to teach ethics to people who believe they are doing nothing wrong is going to get you no where.

209x50 · #35 12-12-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Bear

promote our way of life

Very well written Donny, but that which I've quoted is what scares me the most about social engineering. Who decides what is "our way."

Donny Bear · #36 12-12-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

Very well written Donny, but that which I've quoted is what scares me the most about social engineering. Who decides what is "our way."

Understood: So do we allow the others to engineer our kind out of society? That is what is happening special intrest goups have and continue to make Hunters, trappers and those like minded; socially unacceptable and we are in simple fact being engineered out of society. Something as simple as giving Elk birth control in a national park is one more revision in the engineered plan to eliminate my kind from this society. JMO

209x50 · #37 12-12-2007, 05:15 PM

Donny, I don't think for a second that if hunters and trappers weren't need for game management that we wouldn't be gone already. But how does this relate back to guys who only shoot the week before they go hunting?

Donny Bear · #38 12-12-2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

Donny, I don't think for a second that if hunters and trappers weren't need for game management that we wouldn't be gone already. But how does this relate back to guys who only shoot the week before they go hunting?

Don't know your the one who brought up social engineering

209x50 · #39 12-12-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Bear

Don't know your the one who brought up social engineering

Guess the ethics thing led us here. A loooong ways from how much you practice before the season huh?

mud slug · #40 12-12-2007, 06:37 PM

seems to me most people would get their hunting ethics from the person that taught them how to hunt. my dad was one of the best shots that i've seen. he taught me to only take shot that i was comfortable taken. if i had any dout don't take the shot.haveing grown up on the farm we had every day to practice shooting.now that i live in the city i find it hard to get out and shot, with working 5-6 days a week. i've notice in the last few years that my shooting has started to slip. this year i passed on a half a dozen shots that i would have taken in past years, but i was taught that it's better to pass than to take a shot i'm not comfortable with. the problem with a lot of people i think is that they have people teaching them how to hunt that didn't have strong outdoor ethics, and take for granted that they could hit the paper last year so i can this year lets go hunting. they use work, family life,and other pasttimes as a excuse not to get out and practice shooting year round.i know i need to get out more and bring my level back up so i'm more comfortable taking the right shot .

#41 12-12-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Gee hope you had a tag for the moose. hate to think you would break the law and then condem the American hunters for there suposed buck fever and bad shooting.

If you didn't have a tag,and didn't tag the moose,and you shot at the moose,you should have been charged and convicted of hunting without a license,and possible with using another persons tag.I see you as a far worse offender than someone that can't shoot accurately.

BigBuck$ · #42 12-12-2007, 09:53 PM

I might be off topic a bit here, I agree that we all have limits of what we are capable of doing when it comes to marksmanship. Yes practice at the range is crutial and most of us don't spend half the time we should getting to know our equipment.

However, this post brings to mind one particular friend of mine. He shoots targets at his range pretty much on a daily basis and can hit a beer can at 300 + yards consistently, he is a great shot..............at the range! Now, put a deer, moose, elk, or a gopher for that matter 25 yards in front of him and he can't touch it. I have never seen anything like it, worst case of buck fever ever.

He has tried shooting paper targets that look like animals and as long as he knows they are paper he can punch paper right where he needs to be. It must be some sort of mental issue where he gets too excited and forgets his basic rifle skills or something. It's not like he shoots fast or isn't sure what he is shooting at, it just seems like he misses alot of animals that most of us would call easy shots. Prime example of this was a bull moose we pushed out to him, it trotted across a 100 ft wide cutline at about 100 yards, he shot twice and missed both times, we are talking about a 6 foot x 6 foot target here! Maybe he should not be hunting, I don't know. Mybe there is help for people like him, I don't know.

Mintaka · #43 12-12-2007, 10:23 PM

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Donny Bear · #44 12-12-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubblejumper

If you didn't have a tag,and didn't tag the moose,and you shot at the moose,you should have been charged and convicted of hunting without a license,and possible with using another persons tag.I see you as a far worse offender than someone that can't shoot accurately.

thanks for seeing my point SJ

Donny Bear · #45 12-12-2007, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBuck$

I might be off topic a bit here, I agree that we all have limits of what we are capable of doing when it comes to marksmanship. Yes practice at the range is crutial and most of us don't spend half the time we should getting to know our equipment.

However, this post brings to mind one particular friend of mine. He shoots targets at his range pretty much on a daily basis and can hit a beer can at 300 + yards consistently, he is a great shot..............at the range! Now, put a deer, moose, elk, or a gopher for that matter 25 yards in front of him and he can't touch it. I have never seen anything like it, worst case of buck fever ever.

He has tried shooting paper targets that look like animals and as long as he knows they are paper he can punch paper right where he needs to be. It must be some sort of mental issue where he gets too excited and forgets his basic rifle skills or something. It's not like he shoots fast or isn't sure what he is shooting at, it just seems like he misses alot of animals that most of us would call easy shots. Prime example of this was a bull moose we pushed out to him, it trotted across a 100 ft wide cutline at about 100 yards, he shot twice and missed both times, we are talking about a 6 foot x 6 foot target here! Maybe he should not be hunting, I don't know. Mybe there is help for people like him, I don't know.

Watch escanaba in the moonlite funny movie

help you understand

Mintaka · #46 12-12-2007, 10:35 PM

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Donny Bear · #47 12-13-2007, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintaka

A must see!

Hey buckless

Like a cult classic "anythin free's wert savin upfer"

Stinky Coyote · #48 12-13-2007, 09:39 AM

Okay, personally i like to practice because when its me and the critter and the critter could be running away and giving me the finger?......nope...don't like that....so i practice and learn my rigs way beyond what i figure i'll need in the field.....don't like getting the finger.

But thats my personal choice...my guess is Dick takes it alot further than that even?

Another guys personal choice might be to do the average thing as mentioned...shoot a few to confirm a half arsed zero and maybe a couple gopher days and go hunting. And if the lack of practice has them missing stuff....great...more for the rest of us...they obviously don't take the hunting thing as serious as some of us...nothing wrong with that imo. Wounding is another thing i suppose...and personal choice again...if a guy doesn't mind winging the odd one then so be it...but lots do and either don't take the questionable shots...or practice more like some of us do....to be ready for more situations.

And thats not to say the 'average' guy doesn't wait for the gimme shot anyhow? As he might be fully aware of his limits based on his lack of practice? Right? Right.

Then there is the bicycle thing....who forgets how to ride a bicycle? Some of these 'average' guys might have been serious shooters way back?....like some of us are now.....and maybe it hasn't left them....maybe they will always be able to 'ride the bike'? Like some of surely will be able to do later in life...with less practice....i'm sure.

Just playin devils advocate a bit. Don't see a need to take it to extremes....less guys practicing means more chances for the game imo...and therefore...more chances for us more practiced fellows imo. Two sides to every coin.

Battle River · #49 12-13-2007, 11:46 AM

As I made the original reply that raised this issue I have to chime in. What nerve did i hit? Is this admission of hunting accuracy such a revelation to all of you? I find that hard to believe actually. It makes me think back to my early 20's when I was a regular range goer, and had to put up with the holier than thou attitude of the older shooters present, who never really offered a great deal of support but were quick to put down my eqipment, loads ect. That is why I am fortunate to have my own personal range at my hfarm. I am actaully doing a service to the hgunting community by at leasy giving a solid rest, a spotting scope and a safe place to fire. Otherwise, these hunters would be even worse off. Yes It ticks me off to see bad shooting, I witness it every year during deer season. I continue to hone my shooting skils and use a variety of means to do so. I just cannot believe that this "revelation" comes as so much a surprise. In my local area locals become interested in hunting in the evening preceding, the day of, and the night after their 2-3 days of hunting, when they tag out. Making them pass arbitrary "tests" will onlyserve to reduce hunter numbers. As the only seriuos shooter in my area, I at least make an effort to get rifles sighted in properly, and ensure safe operation while in the field.

Donny Bear · #50 12-13-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle River

As I made the original reply that raised this issue I have to chime in. What nerve did i hit? Is this admission of hunting accuracy such a revelation to all of you? I find that hard to believe actually. It makes me think back to my early 20's when I was a regular range goer, and had to put up with the holier than thou attitude of the older shooters present, who never really offered a great deal of support but were quick to put down my eqipment, loads ect. That is why I am fortunate to have my own personal range at my hfarm. I am actaully doing a service to the hgunting community by at leasy giving a solid rest, a spotting scope and a safe place to fire. Otherwise, these hunters would be even worse off. Yes It ticks me off to see bad shooting, I witness it every year during deer season. I continue to hone my shooting skils and use a variety of means to do so. I just cannot believe that this "revelation" comes as so much a surprise. In my local area locals become interested in hunting in the evening preceding, the day of, and the night after their 2-3 days of hunting, when they tag out. Making them pass arbitrary "tests" will onlyserve to reduce hunter numbers. As the only seriuos shooter in my area, I at least make an effort to get rifles sighted in properly, and ensure safe operation while in the field.

Good on you for helping out and giving people a place to shoot wish more could and would do the same. That said I know Dick was attempting to cause people to reflect on the subject get them thinking and I agreed with his motive. I can't say I know him because I don't but it is evident that he tries to help people as do you. In the end that make it better for everyone in my couple of months on this forum I have learned that Dick284, Sheephunter and some others have the ability to get threads started that catch fire and provoke thought and I am glad to share in and learn from those threads

209x50 · #51 12-13-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle River

As I made the original reply that raised this issue I have to chime in. What nerve did i hit? .

Some people still get holier than thou even here.

I salute what you do and I understand exactly where you are coming from.

#52 12-13-2007, 02:01 PM

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sbtennex · #53 12-13-2007, 05:29 PM

[QUOTE=ctd;83460]Heres a suggestion for all the expieranced hunters.
offer your services openly to any and all inexpieranced hunters. Show them the thrill, the rush, then the side we all forget about, That is taking the life of another animal.

Right on. The other part of the equation is that as a RESPONSIBLE hunter you need to shoot-shoot-shoot. That's why even pounding paper in the summertime with your .338, shooting clay birds, knocking off gophers with all your weapons, or whatever, shooting a lot makes for a shooter period......my 2 bits worth.