SD Goals – Next Gen Ballistics Planning

[catnthehat]

deleted

[huntingfamily]

With today's variety of bullet designs, SD means SFA.
BC is relevant but as mentioned, only at longer ranges.
For 90+% of us, load whatcha brung and shoot to learn your rifle's own capabilities.
If yer not happy, try something different.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Curious what people’s thoughts are for future ballistics and what may become a winner down the road someday?

My future winner will be 340 WBY with 250-265 grain accubonds 26” barrel with no muzzle break.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

yes, if you mean same weight

in archery it's same thing, same bow (350 vs 450 gr arrows), everyone favors the 450 gr arrows for elk/moose and no issues with 350 gr for deer/sheep....

the 350 going way quicker, the 450 way slower but actually the 450 picks up another ft/lb or two from the bow so is more efficient but penetrate much deeper than the 350, same diam. broadheads or arrow shafts....

the sd is higher on the 450, that's why it goes deeper...it's no different if it's a spear, arrow, bullet....sd, not momentum, is the relevant factor

you must have enough velocity to overcome a given sd for game intended...back to the bell 6.5 vs 700 nitro example...2000 fps is simply not enough velocity for a .292 sd and the 6.5 with the .326 sd at 2300 does get the job done, momentum difference between them is massive but irrelevant

No stinky your incorrect here.

When it comes to archery gear mass = penetration. When you need a pass through on a cape or asiatic water buffalo, elephant, hippo etc it comes down to momentum and mass. Yes as mass increases the SD increases but your getting the cart before the horse here.

This is under the assumption of perfect tune/arrow flight, sharp broadhead, structural integrity etc. but we will assume any and all arrows in question have that covered.

Kinetic energy and momentum slug/ft by themselves have very little to do with an arrows potential penetration and to disprove the SD plug you put in there you could run a fmj at 500 grains vs a 2219 or 23/64” wood arrow at 700 grains and the fatter, heavier arrow will still penetrate much further.

Ashby got offside penetration on water buffalo with 700 grain arrows shot from a 40lb longbow generating 26 ft/lbs ke 100% of the time when 70lb compounds shooting <650 grain arrows generating much more KE and momentum rarely get into the thorax.

Speaking of arrow penetration into a homogeneous target. I shoot a 80lb compound at 30” and shot into a natural sand bank for years as a target. My 400 grain arrows got about 6” of penetration. My 530 grain hunting arrows get about 12” of penetration. The nocks of my 700 grain water buff arrows were 3” under the sand so about 35” of penetration.
My buff arrows would blow through and out the back of a new rhinoblock target. Mass has an effect and more then just the context of SD, momentum or Ke.

The first guy I read about who shot a black rhino with a bow and achieve offside penetration was running a 900 grain aluminum (fat) arrow.

Now in animals, arrows have the added advantage of that broadhead up front clearing a hole for the arrow to follow so it’s not apples to apples but in targets that use friction to stop the arrow the effect of mass still exists and I’ve shot heavy, fat arrows against lighter and skinnier arrows with very comparable ke more then I can remember and mass always increases penetration. (If they’re both achieving perfect arrow flight).

[marxman]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

No stinky your incorrect here.

When it comes to archery gear mass = penetration. When you need a pass through on a cape or asiatic water buffalo, elephant, hippo etc it comes down to momentum and mass. Yes as mass increases the SD increases but your getting the cart before the horse here.

This is under the assumption of perfect tune/arrow flight, sharp broadhead, structural integrity etc. but we will assume any and all arrows in question have that covered.

Kinetic energy and momentum slug/ft by themselves have very little to do with an arrows potential penetration and to disprove the SD plug you put in there you could run a fmj at 500 grains vs a 2219 or 23/64” wood arrow at 700 grains and the fatter, heavier arrow will still penetrate much further.

Ashby got offside penetration on water buffalo with 700 grain arrows shot from a 40lb longbow generating 26 ft/lbs ke 100% of the time when 70lb compounds shooting <650 grain arrows generating much more KE and momentum rarely get into the thorax.

Speaking of arrow penetration into a homogeneous target. I shoot a 80lb compound at 30” and shot into a natural sand bank for years as a target. My 400 grain arrows got about 6” of penetration. My 530 grain hunting arrows get about 12” of penetration. The nocks of my 700 grain water buff arrows were 3” under the sand so about 35” of penetration.
My buff arrows would blow through and out the back of a new rhinoblock target. Mass has an effect and more then just the context of SD, momentum or Ke.

The first guy I read about who shot a black rhino with a bow and achieve offside penetration was running a 900 grain aluminum (fat) arrow.

Now in animals, arrows have the added advantage of that broadhead up front clearing a hole for the arrow to follow so it’s not apples to apples but in targets that use friction to stop the arrow the effect of mass still exists and I’ve shot heavy, fat arrows against lighter and skinnier arrows with very comparable ke more then I can remember and mass always increases penetration. (If they’re both achieving perfect arrow flight).

Well stinky, try to argue this kind of confetti, every time s.d. comes up people throw masses of stuff out there but you did mention momentum, your bad

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

Yes, I have some future predictions.
In 50 years smokeless powder will be obsolete. So all your spreadsheets of SD this and SD that are irrelevant.
In the future we will be using electromagnetic rifles with a miniature battery pack or something similar that will achieve velocities in excess of 6,000 FPS. All projectiles will have to be redesigned to cope with those velocities. And the operator/hunter will experience virtually zero recoil.
You are way behind on your thinking. You are still basing your calculations on what happened 50 to 100 years ago. Linear extrapolation models are not going to work.

Awesome! Glad i wasn't the one who brought up the idea that explosion driven cartridges we are institutionalized to. It may actually be obsolete technology in 50 years. What future ways/technologies could be coming that most of us can't conceptualize. Frickin laser beams perhaps?

For the sake of this thread maybe we should stick to 'where do the limits start to find an end in our smokeless powder cartridge technology?'

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

These bullets have the same, SD, not the same BC, nor will their penetration characteristics be anywhere near the same. This is a silly discussion.

Of course not, the construction is not the 'same'.

You'd need to be able to assume they will expand or come apart at same rate to make apples comparisons.

This is apples/oranges comparison. Well it appears to be, i'm assuming you're showing a berger and a partition (rapid expansion vs delayed expansion)?

If they both just thin jacket cup and core then penetration will be essentially the same given same impact velocities.

Obviously the bc is drastically different between them so impact velocities will vary greatly as the distances go beyond 300 yards.

Now, if it's a berger/partition comparison then the partition will have a much higher retained sd regarless of impact velocities and will out penetrate the berger all the way out. At some point the berger will have retained plenty of velocity to still do great work and the partition would be going so slow it would just pencil. If both were same construction same thing would apply at distance, the one hitting the animal slower will retain higher sd as it just won't open up and shed as violently as the high bc faster one will. But give them same impact velocities...which is what we do here in comparing to understand, and same construction/sd...then same penetration.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

What bullet will penetrate farther a 405 gr hard cast out of a 45-70 or a 147gr hornady out of a 6.5 if impact velocities are exactly the same say 1400 fps... I have not done such a test so I don't know for sure but I have my guesses....Btw the SD in the 6.5 is quite a bit higher than the 405 hard cast.

Originally Posted by Salavee

Good Question !

Stinky ... where are you?

Relax, i'm comin, i got this.

If the 147 had the same expansion ratio as the 405 hardcast....which would mean the 147 was also a hardcast or fmj...then the 6.5 147 goes deeper if it has the higher sd.

The only difference will be the 405 hardcast will dump x amount of ft/lbs per inch as it goes to its depth and the 147 will only dump x amount of ft/lbs per inch as it goes...but the 147 will go deeper.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

No stinky your incorrect here.

When it comes to archery gear mass = penetration. When you need a pass through on a cape or asiatic water buffalo, elephant, hippo etc it comes down to momentum and mass. Yes as mass increases the SD increases but your getting the cart before the horse here.

This is under the assumption of perfect tune/arrow flight, sharp broadhead, structural integrity etc. but we will assume any and all arrows in question have that covered.

Kinetic energy and momentum slug/ft by themselves have very little to do with an arrows potential penetration and to disprove the SD plug you put in there you could run a fmj at 500 grains vs a 2219 or 23/64” wood arrow at 700 grains and the fatter, heavier arrow will still penetrate much further.

Ashby got offside penetration on water buffalo with 700 grain arrows shot from a 40lb longbow generating 26 ft/lbs ke 100% of the time when 70lb compounds shooting <650 grain arrows generating much more KE and momentum rarely get into the thorax.

Speaking of arrow penetration into a homogeneous target. I shoot a 80lb compound at 30” and shot into a natural sand bank for years as a target. My 400 grain arrows got about 6” of penetration. My 530 grain hunting arrows get about 12” of penetration. The nocks of my 700 grain water buff arrows were 3” under the sand so about 35” of penetration.
My buff arrows would blow through and out the back of a new rhinoblock target. Mass has an effect and more then just the context of SD, momentum or Ke.

The first guy I read about who shot a black rhino with a bow and achieve offside penetration was running a 900 grain aluminum (fat) arrow.

Now in animals, arrows have the added advantage of that broadhead up front clearing a hole for the arrow to follow so it’s not apples to apples but in targets that use friction to stop the arrow the effect of mass still exists and I’ve shot heavy, fat arrows against lighter and skinnier arrows with very comparable ke more then I can remember and mass always increases penetration. (If they’re both achieving perfect arrow flight).

Sometimes visualizations help. A 900 gr hammer vs a 900 gr needle. Same velocity of impact. What happens?

900gr hammer would have an sd of about .005 and the 900gr needle would have an sd about .500.

900gr hammer will leave a mark and somebody will say ouch. But the 900gr needle will put holes in two elk lined up side by side.

I used the elk 350/450gr example as that's most common locally. I'm up to speed on ashby and his weight forward theories etc. We can't really play foc with bullets so i didn't get carried away as it's not a relevance here. But sd, even though rarely mentioned in archery talk, is the actual factor that contributes to the 450 going deeper out of the same bow than the 350. The only thing is sd would be hard to measure on an arrow because of the broadhead but either use the diam. of broadhead or diam. of shaft as same....just the weights are different...same as a bullet, the heavier one goes deeper, period, because of it's higher sd, not 'momentum'.

These arguments are easy when you're right guys.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Sometimes visualizations help. A 900 gr hammer vs a 900 gr needle. Same velocity of impact. What happens?

900gr hammer would have an sd of about .005 and the 900gr needle would have an sd about .500.

900gr hammer will leave a mark and somebody will say ouch. But the 900gr needle will put holes in two elk lined up side by side.

I used the elk 350/450gr example as that's most common locally. I'm up to speed on ashby and his weight forward theories etc. We can't really play foc with bullets so i didn't get carried away as it's not a relevance here. But sd, even though rarely mentioned in archery talk, is the actual factor that contributes to the 450 going deeper out of the same bow than the 350. The only thing is sd would be hard to measure on an arrow because of the broadhead but either use the diam. of broadhead or diam. of shaft as same....just the weights are different...same as a bullet, the heavier one goes deeper, period, because of it's higher sd, not 'momentum'.

These arguments are easy when you're right guys.

That's why a bullets SD requires weight in its formula. If two bullets had exactly the same form factor and construction but had two different weights the heavier one would theoretically penetrate further. Thats a gimmee. After impact, when SD has gone out the window, a bullets forward motion is caused by what is commonly known as momentum.. not SD. SD is just a formula while momentum is real world. Strange as it may be, the bullet that penetrated furthest also had the highest SD so I'm thinking your "new age " term to try and replace mass in motion with SD requires some refinement. Maybe just leave it as a reference number as to its potential penetration as most of us use these bullets on real life animals.

BTW, I'll take my chances regarding the two bullets presented by Obsessed 1. The 45-70 hard cast had about twice the momentum of the 6.5 147 ELDM after impact. Bet on ?

[marky_mark]

Only sd that matters in ballistics is standard deviation

Sectional density is irrelevant

[Stinky Coyote]

What’s the momentum of a 1000gr bullet at 2000 fps vs a 159 at 2300? And the little guy with sweet eff all for momentum kills the elephant. Do explain this please.

Sounds wonderful but momentum does not relate to penetration. It’s an irrelevant factor in ballistics and penetration.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

What’s the momentum of a 1000gr bullet at 2000 fps vs a 159 at 2300? And the little guy with sweet eff all for momentum kills the elephant. Do explain this please.

Sounds wonderful but momentum does not relate to penetration. It’s an irrelevant factor in ballistics and penetration.

Did you perform this test?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

What’s the momentum of a 1000gr bullet at 2000 fps vs a 159 at 2300? And the little guy with sweet eff all for momentum kills the elephant. Do explain this please.

Sounds wonderful but momentum does not relate to penetration. It’s an irrelevant factor in ballistics and penetration.

Do you just dream this stuff up? Bell used solids exclusively on all his Elephants. He used the smaller calibers because they were accurate and his target area was very small and at a difficult angle ..but not that difficult to penetrate. His contemporaries coined it "the Bell shot" His bullets did not have to penetrate 12" of Skull either, as you suggested. A few people seem to have skulls like that though. Dream on !

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Sometimes visualizations help. A 900 gr hammer vs a 900 gr needle. Same velocity of impact. What happens?

900gr hammer would have an sd of about .005 and the 900gr needle would have an sd about .500.

900gr hammer will leave a mark and somebody will say ouch. But the 900gr needle will put holes in two elk lined up side by side.

I used the elk 350/450gr example as that's most common locally. I'm up to speed on ashby and his weight forward theories etc. We can't really play foc with bullets so i didn't get carried away as it's not a relevance here. But sd, even though rarely mentioned in archery talk, is the actual factor that contributes to the 450 going deeper out of the same bow than the 350. The only thing is sd would be hard to measure on an arrow because of the broadhead but either use the diam. of broadhead or diam. of shaft as same....just the weights are different...same as a bullet, the heavier one goes deeper, period, because of it's higher sd, not 'momentum'.

These arguments are easy when you're right guys.

Stinky you missed the mark with that response. Perhaps my post confused you or maybe your just confused.

A 5mm fmj arrow at 500 grains has a SD of 1.843
A 5/16 carbon arrow at 700 grains has an SD of 1.12

The penetration between the two isn’t even close. The arrow with more mass will penetrate every medium I’ve ever shot further. Regardless of the fact it’s SD is less then then the skinnier, lighter arrow.
When I reference Ashby the point I made was that ke and momentum individually don’t indicate penetration potential (and it’s not just SD that can explain it either). A modern compound with a 400 grain arrow generating 80 ft lbs and .533 slugs vs a longbow with a 700 grain arrow generated 24 ft lbs and .389 slugs. The heavier arrow from the longbow out penetrated the compounds arrow. Not from speed, kinetic energy, momentum or fairy dust. It penetrates further due to mass. Shoot a heavier arrow and penetration increases (assuming both are tuned/maintain structural integrity, etc).
I didn’t bring up FOC and if that’s all you remember from Ashby you either didn’t read the reports or weren’t paying attention. If it helps you process the information give both arrows the same FOC and the results are the still same.

[Stinky Coyote]

use the diam. of the broadhead, make it the same, since it opens the hole the shaft is just a stabilizer following a long, at best keeps it straight in flight and through the critter, same diam. the part actually doing the work, and run your numbers again with your different weights

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Do you just dream this stuff up? Bell used solids exclusively on all his Elephants. He used the smaller calibers because they were accurate and his target area was very small and at a difficult angle ..but not that difficult to penetrate. His contemporaries coined it "the Bell shot" His bullets did not have to penetrate 12" of Skull either, as you suggested. A few people seem to have skulls like that though. Dream on !

if you don't like the over 1000 elephants Bell shot with 7x57 or 6x54 example then use a 300gr 375 h&h solid compared to the 700 nitro 1000gr at 2000 fps, or any other typical elephant cartridge of today, none of them will have the momentum of the 700, so why do they get through to the brain pan and the 700 struggles? 500th request...answer that please.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

if you don't like the over 1000 elephants Bell shot with 7x57 or 6x54 example then use a 300gr 375 h&h solid compared to the 700 nitro 1000gr at 2000 fps, or any other typical elephant cartridge of today, none of them will have the momentum of the 700, so why do they get through to the brain pan and the 700 struggles? 500th request...answer that please.

Do you have first hand experience with this?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Did you perform this test?

Bell shot 1000 plus elephants with 7x57 and 6x54, super high sd, super low momentum

The 700 nitro articles you can find and i have posted before, not enough sd for impact velocity, momentum simply couldn't help because it wasn't a factor that means anything.

you must have these things:

game intended (whether it be coyotes, deer or elephants etc.)
adequate sd (for game intended)
adequate impact velocity (for game intended, to drive adequate sd, changing or not, to depths required)
adequate bullet construction (rate at which it does, or does not, lose it's sd)

momentum is useless number as it relates to penetration, you can't use it as a means to compare what will happen, 700 nitro elephants example compared to everything else that does work on elephants is the proof, an extreme example but definitive

why is momentum not listed as a factor in ammo specs?

[Stinky Coyote]

marky mark, i do, and we all do have first hand experience with this, as we've all been shooting game for awhile, what we witness is what i'm saying, choosing to understand it however you like is your choice

i've never been to africa so can only read the accounts of the pro's who have, but if anywhere there is momentum up the whazzoo then it's all the big bores over there used for dangerous game, which make for easier examples for us to understand, and or, explain what we all witness yet still seem to question

will you take Craig Boddington's word for it and the two other guys he mentions (Carter & Jones)?
https://www.rifleshootermag.com/edit...n_200912/84161

"We--Boddington, Carter, Jones--have now seen multiple elephant not only fail to go down but fail to show any reaction whatsoever upon receiving fair in the skull the 1,000-grain bullet and 9,000 ft.-lbs. of energy delivered by the .700. This is not just surprising, it's stunning (pun intended), but it's real. Only Jones' ability to get on the second trigger fast prevented a problem.

Once again, I'm convinced the culprit with the .700 is inadequate velocity in relation to the frontal area. This is a continuing theme with all the ultra-large bores. I am convinced none of them penetrate as well as, for example, a 400-grain .416 at 2,400 fps (more velocity, less resistance). But if you had more velocity the recoil would be off the page."

Sorry....what are momentum numbers there? The hammer vs the needle. SD is your answer.

[Stinky Coyote]

if you're gonna try and stuff that .700" 1000gr pill through that elephant skull with only 2000 fps and an sd of .292....then you're going to need to get that sd way way up

the .416 400gr example given there has an sd of .33 and going 400 fps faster...so....to get a nearly 3/4" diam bullet through that skull at 400 fps slower the sd will likely need to be in the .35-.37 range which would make that bullet weigh 1200-1300 grains...then maybe it will get the job done, but momentum has nothing to do with this, the recoil energy of that would be scary and ft/lbs energy would be 10,660 for 1200gr going 2000 fps but clearly 9000 ft/lbs isn't enough without the right sd/velocity mix

the .700 nitro vs .416 example given...the .700 bullet being 100% frontal area the .416 is 59% of that, and the 2400 fps of the .416 being 100% velocity...the 2000 fps of the .700 is 83% of that....

you can see from looking at all the stuff that works in africa that there is a common theme between sd and impact velocities...and if you step outside of those thresholds then you have problems, momentum isn't a number, ft/lbs doesn't seem to matter either when you consider elephants not registering 9000 ft/lbs to the head....

not sure how many times i'll have to go over this but the info is all there

wanna kill elephants, better have approx. .33 sd, solids, and at least 2300 fps launch velocity....if you don't start there you're going to have problems, as history shows, go ahead and research it yourself

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

use the diam. of the broadhead, make it the same, since it opens the hole the shaft is just a stabilizer following a long, at best keeps it straight in flight and through the critter, same diam. the part actually doing the work, and run your numbers again with your different weights

If I wanted to use the diameter of the broadhead AND was shooting a medium that wouldn’t grip the arrow shaft we could do it that way. In reality though that’s just another way to try and make the data fit the hypothesis and not letting the data tell us the hypothesis has some holes in it. I’m talking about shaft diameter field tips, not just broadheads. In many different targets, some that use friction to stop the arrow. I’m also talking first hand experience, not something I’ve read or a compilation of opinions I’ve been exposed to and filtered with my own bias.
Take it for what it’s worth. For you, probably nothing because it doesn’t fit your agenda but for the thousands of times I’ve seen and done it and in the different ways I’ve tested it I’ll never be convinced otherwise.
For the purpose of your thread you should stick with your obvious first hand observations of Bell and your guys elephant killing exploits. It’ll be easier to convince the crowd.
I just had to stick my nose into the arrow component you mentioned because it’s an area I’ve got so many hundreds of hours of personal experience I know your original presumption was incorrect.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

If I wanted to use the diameter of the broadhead AND was shooting a medium that wouldn’t grip the arrow shaft we could do it that way. In reality though that’s just another way to try and make the data fit the hypothesis and not letting the data tell us the hypothesis has some holes in it. I’m talking about shaft diameter field tips, not just broadheads. In many different targets, some that use friction to stop the arrow. I’m also talking first hand experience, not something I’ve read or a compilation of opinions I’ve been exposed to and filtered with my own bias.
Take it for what it’s worth. For you, probably nothing because it doesn’t fit your agenda but for the thousands of times I’ve seen and done it and in the different ways I’ve tested it I’ll never be convinced otherwise.
For the purpose of your thread you should stick with your obvious first hand observations of Bell and your guys elephant killing exploits. It’ll be easier to convince the crowd.
I just had to stick my nose into the arrow component you mentioned because it’s an area I’ve got so many hundreds of hours of personal experience I know your original presumption was incorrect.

You are correct that applying this to archery could be a whole nuther thread altogether. I probably have a 70/30 or 60/40 ratio of big game kills with archery vs rifle tackle so i'm equally as versed. But ya, if you use a field tip then you'll need to stick to diameter of shaft, possible shaft finish as well, as you know some are easier to come out of the targets than others. Why the skinny shaft phenomenon? Make those needles skinnier for the weight and lots less drag as the broadhead cuts the path. Either way, you stick the 100gr broadhead on it, vs the 125gr broadhead...same shaft weight, same fletches, the 125 is going deeper is launched from same bow, sd (combined or head alone) is greater. Would be a very hard thing to measure on an arrow projectile but end of day it's not momentum, it's not ke that gets that penetration advantage, it's higher sd.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

You are correct that applying this to archery could be a whole nuther thread altogether. I probably have a 70/30 or 60/40 ratio of big game kills with archery vs rifle tackle so i'm equally as versed. But ya, if you use a field tip then you'll need to stick to diameter of shaft, possible shaft finish as well, as you know some are easier to come out of the targets than others. Why the skinny shaft phenomenon? Make those needles skinnier for the weight and lots less drag as the broadhead cuts the path. Either way, you stick the 100gr broadhead on it, vs the 125gr broadhead...same shaft weight, same fletches, the 125 is going deeper is launched from same bow, sd (combined or head alone) is greater. Would be a very hard thing to measure on an arrow projectile but end of day it's not momentum, it's not ke that gets that penetration advantage, it's higher sd.

You can move the goal posts all you want, throw in as many variables as you can think of to confuse the issue and the only thing it brings to mind is that old saying. “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle em with BS”.

Arrow mass has an effect on penetration. Chances are there are similarities with bullets.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

Arrow mass has an effect on penetration. Chances are there are similarities with bullets.

This mf’er spitten facts!😉

[bobtodrick]

Give it up guys...Stinky is never wrong...countless threads show that.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

if you're gonna try and stuff that .700" 1000gr pill through that elephant skull with only 2000 fps and an sd of .292....then you're going to need to get that sd way way up

the .416 400gr example given there has an sd of .33 and going 400 fps faster...so....to get a nearly 3/4" diam bullet through that skull at 400 fps slower the sd will likely need to be in the .35-.37 range which would make that bullet weigh 1200-1300 grains...then maybe it will get the job done, but momentum has nothing to do with this, the recoil energy of that would be scary and ft/lbs energy would be 10,660 for 1200gr going 2000 fps but clearly 9000 ft/lbs isn't enough without the right sd/velocity mix

the .700 nitro vs .416 example given...the .700 bullet being 100% frontal area the .416 is 59% of that, and the 2400 fps of the .416 being 100% velocity...the 2000 fps of the .700 is 83% of that....

you can see from looking at all the stuff that works in africa that there is a common theme between sd and impact velocities...and if you step outside of those thresholds then you have problems, momentum isn't a number, ft/lbs doesn't seem to matter either when you consider elephants not registering 9000 ft/lbs to the head....

not sure how many times i'll have to go over this but the info is all there

wanna kill elephants, better have approx. .33 sd, solids, and at least 2300 fps launch velocity....if you don't start there you're going to have problems, as history shows, go ahead and research it yourself

Don’t worry
If and when I go hunting for Elephants
I won’t be calling you for advice

I would definitely be calling one of the people who your referencing though

Funny how your talking about shooting a 416 at 2300 fps at dangerous game
When you can’t handle the recoil of a 6.5 going the same speed

I think all of the writers your referencing would be shaking their heads if they head you were shooting moose with a Grendel and match bullets

Oh...and I might be going on my bezoar ibex hunt with one them too
👍

[Stinky Coyote]

ah yes, when you can't beat the message or idea with better you go after the messenger

so what is the preferred cartridge for polar bear etc. in the arctic by the locals etc.? anyway, pot calling kettle black again, your way must be the way, or as i've stated, there is a huge variety of ways, i simply show why things work and what numbers are better served for comparing so there's far less confusion in all the ballistics talk of 'just use a 180 in a 30 and you're good to go'...i know why we got there, i know why Bell could kill 1000 plus elephants with squirrel guns, i know why 700 nitro express makes a crap choice too, i don't recommend much, just spit those facts that's all, you all pick what you like, now you know how it works and you're better armed to choose wisely

and when you go for elephants you should listen lol, i only regurgitate research so if you'd like to save time then listen, if not go research yourself .33 sd or better at 23-2400 fps is where to start looking for dangerous game in africa, i think min legal now in africa cartridge for dangerous game is 375 h&h, and with 300 gr solid and .305 sd it goes over 2530 fps launch...which it would need that increased velocity to offset the sub .33 sd of the .416 at 2400 fps, this isn't hard to research what cartridges work in africa and then you see those sd/velocity numbers and it doesn't take long to figure out where the averages lie for the effective dangerous game set ups...yup the 6.5x54 and 7x57 wouldn't be my first choice either, but they got it done because they had .33-ish sd and 23-2400 fps launches, they had no momentum, no ft/lbs, so how else did they get it done? tough to argue that...375 h&h the longest standard is .305 at 2530 fps...i'd personally be after .33 at 2400 fps if i were going after cape buff or elephant, since they won't let you use smaller than 375 that would likely push me up to that .416 also but i wouldn't be afraid of a solid in a .30, .338, .358 that could push .33 or higher sd at 2400 fps or faster either and maybe there are heavier .375's available than 300 grains, i'd likely look at those legal options first of course, figure it out your own way

back on topic then, so no one sees any holes or gaps in future smokeless powder cartridge tech or offerings? no crystal ball gazing?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

ah yes, when you can't beat the message or idea with better you go after the messenger

so what is the preferred cartridge for polar bear etc. in the arctic by the locals etc.? anyway, pot calling kettle black again, your way must be the way, or as i've stated, there is a huge variety of ways, i simply show why things work and what numbers are better served for comparing so there's far less confusion in all the ballistics talk of 'just use a 180 in a 30 and you're good to go'...i know why we got there, i know why Bell could kill 1000 plus elephants with squirrel guns, i know why 700 nitro express makes a crap choice too, i don't recommend much, just spit those facts that's all, you all pick what you like, now you know how it works and you're better armed to choose wisely

and when you go for elephants you should listen lol, i only regurgitate research so if you'd like to save time then listen, if not go research yourself .33 sd or better at 23-2400 fps is where to start looking for dangerous game in africa, i think min legal now in africa cartridge for dangerous game is 375 h&h, and with 300 gr solid and .305 sd it goes over 2530 fps launch...which it would need that increased velocity to offset the sub .33 sd of the .416 at 2400 fps, this isn't hard to research what cartridges work in africa and then you see those sd/velocity numbers and it doesn't take long to figure out where the averages lie for the effective dangerous game set ups...yup the 6.5x54 and 7x57 wouldn't be my first choice either, but they got it done because they had .33-ish sd and 23-2400 fps launches, they had no momentum, no ft/lbs, so how else did they get it done? tough to argue that...375 h&h the longest standard is .305 at 2530 fps...i'd personally be after .33 at 2400 fps if i were going after cape buff or elephant, since they won't let you use smaller than 375 that would likely push me up to that .416 also but i wouldn't be afraid of a solid in a .30, .338, .358 that could push .33 or higher sd at 2400 fps or faster either and maybe there are heavier .375's available than 300 grains, i'd likely look at those legal options first of course, figure it out your own way

back on topic then, so no one sees any holes or gaps in future smokeless powder cartridge tech or offerings? no crystal ball gazing?

Congrats Stinky .. on being the very first person ever to figure it all out.
Being "in the dark" all these years has caused a lot of us anxiety and anguish, not to mention missing out on a lot of game that should have been harvested.
Thanks to your in-depth research, we now know better.

[huntingfamily]

Touche, lol