Cast bullets for 45-70 Elk hunting

[obsessed1]

Good day, looking for advice on possibly switching from hornady 350gr RN/ FP bullets to a cast bullet. Use would be elk/ moose out to 200yds or so. What should I look for? Is gas check necessary? I'm not set up to cast yet but would consider it in the future..what works and who sells them? Is there much cost savings? To the hornady jacketed bullets? The rifle is a marlin dark with Ballard rifling 1:20 twist

[LeroyvdH]

Using cast I would tend to lean towards a 405gn and a gas check wouldn't hurt.
On gunnutz Jethunter sells cast, as I believe GDmedic right here on AO does also. A large met plate is a bonus. My son dropped a tank of a moose with a 405g only difference he used black powder.

[wheeler]

Hi. I do t personally cast, rather I buy them from Jet Bullets in Wetaskawin. He’s AWESOME! You only have to run with a gas check if u push your velocity past 1400-1500fps. I use his 405 & 425grain hard cast with gas check out of my Marlin 1895 SBL pushing them well over 1800fps. I have great accuracy with them but I only use the open Ghost Ring Sights. I use the rifle as a bush gun so I keep my shots to a max of 100yards.

[Dean2]

The 350 grain Hornady RN is by far the best all round bullet ever made for the 45-70. I have nothing against cast, shoot a lot of them in various guns as they are cheap, accurate and easy to load. You can do a lot of target and practice shooting for not much money; Jet and Bullet Barn are both great sources for cast bullets. All in though, for hunting I would stick with the 350 grain RN. No need for gas checks, good controlled expansion from 1100 to 2200 FPS, great penetration. I have shot bear and moose length wise and got full penetration. They also leave a great wound channel. Stuff does not move after being hit with one of them.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The 350 grain Hornady RN is by far the best all round bullet ever made for the 45-70. I have nothing against cast, shoot a lot of them in various guns as they are cheap, accurate and easy to load. You can do a lot of target and practice shooting for not much money; Jet and Bullet Barn are both great sources for cast bullets. All in though, for hunting I would stick with the 350 grain RN. No need for gas checks, good controlled expansion from 1100 to 2200 FPS, great penetration. I have shot bear and moose length wise and got full penetration. They also leave a great wound channel. Stuff does not move after being hit with one of them.

I'm just having a hard time finding them locally and they seem to be around 2x the price of cast..was thinking maybe I might start casting myself and save a few more $$ if they worked well. I have shot a few Elk with the 350 and have had great results....just looking at other options

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

I'm just having a hard time finding them locally and they seem to be around 2x the price of cast..was thinking maybe I might start casting myself and save a few more $$ if they worked well. I have shot a few Elk with the 350 and have had great results....just looking at other options

I save the 350 RN for hunting and use the cast for practice. I have a bunch of Bullet Barn cast bullets. I have used them in the 45-70 Marlins, a couple of 45-70 Double rifles and in my 460 Weatherby, they work fine. All bullet Barn cast are 25 Brinell, which is medium hard. If you want some to try rather than ordering a whole box as they usually come min 250, I can easily supply some to work with. I am in Edmonton, if you don't get down this way I will throw 30 in an envelope and mail them to you.

[YYC338]

Swift make an A-Frame bullet (350gr) specifically for the 45-70 that is just outstanding. Probably one of the best jacketed bullets out there but a bit spendy for sure. Barnes originals in 400gr are excellent as well. I've never seen a jacket/core separation on them.

I'm currently building a 425gr cast load using a Jet gas checked bullet that looks promising.

All cast bullets are not created equal. Some are quite soft and expand readily, others behave almost like a solid and will penetrate a moose end to end. Gas checks usually are required over 1500 fps, depending on barrel condition.

If you're looking for "hard" cast bullets, you'll need to do some research on Brinell hardness and ask the seller what values they cast their bullets to.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The 350 grain Hornady RN is by far the best all round bullet ever made for the 45-70

My favorite is the discontinued 300gr Nosler partition.

The second I caught wind of it I hoarded every one I could find and glad I did.

Load them to 2200fps and can still hold on fur out to 200 yards.

Elk hate them.

[Thunder/FX]

Originally Posted by Jamie Black R/T

My favorite is the discontinued 300gr Nosler partition.

The second I caught wind of it I hoarded every one I could find and glad I did.

Load them to 2200fps and can still hold on fur out to 200 yards.

Elk hate them.

Says the supreme nosler partition 300 gr .458 hoarder...

I agree but am using the 405gr Rem soft points because Jamie has all the Partitions...

[wheeler]

I’ve read lots of people claim the Hornady 350rn & fn best bullet out there! Well I have two boxes with about 40 each just sitting in my cabinet at home. They won’t necessarily group well from every rifle out there. I wasn’t happy with my groups so I read up on cast & the 45-70 was designed using a 405g Lead bullet obviously at a lot lower FPS than we get today. So I tried it, made some loads, & damn it was way more accurate out of my Marlin. So I stuck with it. If ur gun shoots a certain lead accurate stick with it. I’ve shot 1 hog & 1 deer with my hard cast rounds. DRT. Deer was a head shot mind u.. but I have done a penetration test. Cut a log, shot 15 yards away. It went thru 21.5” my buddy did the same with his non gas check & got 18”. I guarantee a jacked bullet won’t come close to those depths.

Just my 2c

[obsessed1]

Ok so looking into a few cast options and looking for some load data help
Lyman 48 manual has a 405 cast with varget starting off around 1591 fps and max at 1772 fps. This is with their 457193 cast bullet. For those velocities I would need a gas check correct? There's nothing in the manual about using gas checks but does state if micro grooved alloy should be at least 15bhn. My rifle has Ballard rifling. Where is a good starting point? Varget is the only powder listed that I currently have on my shelf.

[Dean2]

The bullets I am sending you are 25 Brinel. I have shot them over 1800 no cash check, no leading, ballard and micro grove. Take any 405 load data suitable to a trapdoor or Marlin and you can substitute lead slugs. Soft lead, max 1200, 15 Brinel max 1400 25 and higher you can push pretty fast with no gas check. I have loaded 3031, Varget, 4895, 4227 and Trail Boss. All work fine thought Trail Boss is a better choice in bottle neck cartridges, not such a good choice in straight wall if you check pressure versus velocity produced. Varget makes good low pressure loads in the 45-70, my favourite powder is till 3031 all round use in the 45-70.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The bullets I am sending you are 25 Brinel. I have shot them over 1800 no cash check, no leading, ballard and micro grove. Take any 405 load data suitable to a trapdoor or Marlin and you can substitute lead slugs. Soft lead, max 1200, 15 Brinel max 1400 25 and higher you can push pretty fast with no gas check. I have loaded 3031, Varget, 4895, 4227 and Trail Boss. All work fine thought Trail Boss is a better choice in bottle neck cartridges, not such a good choice in straight wall if you check pressure versus velocity produced. Varget makes good low pressure loads in the 45-70, my favourite powder is till 3031 all round use in the 45-70.

Thanks for the info

[Dean2]

Thought I would add one more comment. Pushing a 45-70 over 1600 fps doesn't make it materially flatter, does not improve penetration or killing power and starts to recoil exponentially harder for every 1000 fps added. I have shot game with the 45-70 from 1200 fps to 2300 fps. Faster doesn't kill any better, but it will kill you shoulder and is why so many are afraid of that round. At 1600 fps they are actually pleasant to shoot and everything will be DRT.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Thought I would add one more comment. Pushing a 45-70 over 1600 fps doesn't make it materially flatter, does not improve penetration or killing power and starts to recoil exponentially harder for every 1000 fps added. I have shot game with the 45-70 from 1200 fps to 2300 fps. Faster doesn't kill any better, but it will kill you shoulder and is why so many are afraid of that round. At 1600 fps they are actually pleasant to shoot and everything will be DRT.

yup the 405 with a gentle push to your shoulder is nice and remember the animal at the receiving end will fall over even when pushed.....son has one of these elephant guns and man it is nice to shoot...gotta admit I was a bit on the holy crap hang on the first time but that was not the case at all.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Ok so looking into a few cast options and looking for some load data help
Lyman 48 manual has a 405 cast with varget starting off around 1591 fps and max at 1772 fps. This is with their 457193 cast bullet. For those velocities I would need a gas check correct? There's nothing in the manual about using gas checks but does state if micro grooved alloy should be at least 15bhn. My rifle has Ballard rifling. Where is a good starting point? Varget is the only powder listed that I currently have on my shelf.

With lead it is more about the pressure than velocity, that will dictate whether you need a gas check or a harder bullet. I believe most of the bullet cast for 45-70 is done around 25 Brinell. You want it soft enough that it will obturate and seal the bore (not usually an issue with normal 45-70 loads), and hard enough that the base won't erode under the pressure. If memory serves, I believe that Lyman data is a surprisingly low pressure trap door load that is suitable for non gas checks. If that is the case, you could start right at the top if you wanted to. I'd have to look at it, to make sure. All the trap door loads should be suitable.

IIRC Varget might take a lot of powder to get velocity from the 45-70. I'd probably hang onto it for other stuff.

The Lee manual number 2 talks quite a bit about pressures and lead. Lots and lots of load data in there as well.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The bullets I am sending you are 25 Brinel. I have shot them over 1800 no cash check, no leading, ballard and micro grove. Take any 405 load data suitable to a trapdoor or Marlin and you can substitute lead slugs. Soft lead, max 1200, 15 Brinel max 1400 25 and higher you can push pretty fast with no gas check. I have loaded 3031, Varget, 4895, 4227 and Trail Boss. All work fine thought Trail Boss is a better choice in bottle neck cartridges, not such a good choice in straight wall if you check pressure versus velocity produced. Varget makes good low pressure loads in the 45-70, my favourite powder is till 3031 all round use in the 45-70.

That's awful nice of you Dean.

Had a good chat with Bill Bagwell (heck of a nice guy), and I believe that is his choice of smokeless powder. If you look on YouTube, for "black powder Zebra hunt", there's a short video of his shot killing one at 161 yards. His favourite bullet (at least a few years ago) is the 480 gr. cast Lyman. He shoots them at around 1350 fps. The Zebra is a big, tough animal which was supposed to ruin his 45-70's rep for complete pass throughs, according to his PH. It didn't, and the Zebra dropped as if the rug was pulled out beneath it.

[Tactical Lever]

Checked out the Hodgdon website, which has a lot of good loads, and the Varget loads are low pressure with good velocity. There are 4198 and 4895 works well as well, and they are fairly flexible powders that work well with a number of other cartridges. I believe the 4895 is probably a bit more flexible, and 4198 is good for reduced loads.

According to the Lee manual 25 Brinell should be good for about 32000 PSI. All the lever loads for 45-70 in Lee are loaded below this.

The Hodgdon data has lever loads above that level. Trap door info is well below. With some loads it's possible to go in-between for a good load that won't beat you, the rifle, and the bullet up too bad.

[Flight01]

Try the 405 cast. Have fun pushing holes through large animals . In and out at any angle.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Thought I would add one more comment. Pushing a 45-70 over 1600 fps doesn't make it materially flatter, does not improve penetration or killing power and starts to recoil exponentially harder for every 1000 fps added. I have shot game with the 45-70 from 1200 fps to 2300 fps. Faster doesn't kill any better, but it will kill you shoulder and is why so many are afraid of that round. At 1600 fps they are actually pleasant to shoot and everything will be DRT.

Every party needs a pooper i guess.

[freeride]

I am just looking at starting to cast my own to see if its worth it for elk to plinking... but I dont even know what I dont know about casting.

So forgive me if this isnt a good question.

But what type of cost should I expect per lb of materials to get a bullet with a Brinell of say 15 - 20

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by freeride

I am just looking at starting to cast my own to see if its worth it for elk to plinking... but I dont even know what I dont know about casting.

So forgive me if this isnt a good question.

But what type of cost should I expect per lb of materials to get a bullet with a Brinell of say 15 - 20

They are so cheap to buy from Bullet Barn or Jet that casting them won't actually save you any money unless you are shooting a 1000 or so a year. There is also the issue you need to do it in well vented areea as lead fumes aren't good for you and NEVER drop water or liquid into molten lead, even a drop of sweat.
Tthe lead you want, in smaller quantities will be 5 to 10 bucks a pound, at 405 grain per bullet you only get 17 per pound so even at 5 bucks a pound that is 30 cents each. Bullet barn sells them cast, swaged, lubed and 25 Brinel for 40 cents each.


This should have said for every 100 FPS added, not 1000.

Originally Posted by Dean2
Thought I would add one more comment. Pushing a 45-70 over 1600 fps doesn't make it materially flatter, does not improve penetration or killing power and starts to recoil exponentially harder for every 1000 fps added. I have shot game with the 45-70 from 1200 fps to 2300 fps. Faster doesn't kill any better, but it will kill you shoulder and is why so many are afraid of that round. At 1600 fps they are actually pleasant to shoot and everything will be DRT.

[obsessed1]

I looked at setting up to cast ( and would still like to) but it's simply cheaper to buy from bullet barn.. The only reason I want to be able to cast is more for the security of being able to do it should I need to....kinda a prepper thing lol....buying them definitely makes financial sense.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Thought I would add one more comment. Pushing a 45-70 over 1600 fps doesn't make it materially flatter, does not improve penetration or killing power and starts to recoil exponentially harder for every 1000 fps added. I have shot game with the 45-70 from 1200 fps to 2300 fps. Faster doesn't kill any better, but it will kill you shoulder and is why so many are afraid of that round. At 1600 fps they are actually pleasant to shoot and everything will be DRT.

There are three sets of load data, I have discovered for the 45/70. One for the old hinge bolt army rifle, one for lever actions and another for bolt actions.

Grizz

[freeride]

Originally Posted by Dean2

They are so cheap to buy from Bullet Barn or Jet that casting them won't actually save you any money unless you are shooting a 1000 or so a year. There is also the issue you need to do it in well vented areea as lead fumes aren't good for you and NEVER drop water or liquid into molten lead, even a drop of sweat.
Tthe lead you want, in smaller quantities will be 5 to 10 bucks a pound, at 405 grain per bullet you only get 17 per pound so even at 5 bucks a pound that is 30 cents each. Bullet barn sells them cast, swaged, lubed and 25 Brinel for 40 cents each.


This should have said for every 100 FPS added, not 1000.

You confirmed what I was thinking...
I was looking at it from a cost point. At a few cents each I dont think it's worth subjecting myself to fumes, possible burns... etc.

Thanks everyone!