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11-26-2022, 09:58 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewster29
Did it knock the scrunchy off his man bun?
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Lol
Knocked all the hair clean right off his head
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11-28-2022, 07:01 AM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
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For the guys that think starting with a mid data load is a good idea.
My BIL brought me his 270 to see if I thought it was still safe to use.
Story he told me was his buddy had given him some handlaods that had been worked up for buddies 270. Safe in one safe in all thinking.
Turns out it wasn't safe. First round he had difficulty opening the bolt.
Second round it locked the bolt.
He hammered the bolt open and tried a third round. When it locked up the third time he decided to ask me for my thoughts.
I asked if he had any of that ammo left. He did, and he had the load data used.
So I pulled a couple of bullets and weighed the charges, all were mid data loads, well under max. And they varied by 4 grains. I don't know what the spent catridges had in them but I'm guessing two were more then 4 gains over the other.
Next I ran a couple of the spent cartridges through my resizing die. They run through much easier then I expected.
I did notice the primers were flatter then any I had seen before and one was blown open. All three were set back.
At that point there wasn't anything more I could check. So I gave the rifle back to him and suggested he hang it on the wall as a reminder of what not to do.
I told him that I wouldn't trust that rifle no matter what was fed into it.
I told him there could be microscopic cracks in the lock lugs or the action or both and I had no way of testing for that.
I figure his rifle had a much tighter chamber then his buddies rifle. But I had no way to test for that I hadn't already done
That was the end of my involvement with that rifle. I don't know what he did with it.
The lesson I learned is that even a mid data load can be dangerous.
And to never use ammo worked up in someone else's rifle.
I never start anywhere other then at minimum load. And even then I look for flattened primers.
I have a chorny and use it on every load when working up a load, but the data it produces is not used to calculate over pressure.
I only use it to gauge consistency, for accuracy purposes.
I load for accuracy. An extra 100 fps does nothing if you miss the bulls eye.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
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11-28-2022, 07:11 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,768
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How can “mid data” loads vary by four grains? There is also FAR more to “data” than a powder charge. I will load my own ammunition how I want. So far after loading thousands of rounds I have yet to blow a primer ever. Nor have I ever pounded open a bolt. Ever. And I have “started” in all kinds of places. Use your head. Take a common sense approach. It’s quite helpful.
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11-28-2022, 07:16 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver
For the guys that think starting with a mid data load is a good idea.
My BIL brought me his 270 to see if I thought it was still safe to use.
Story he told me was his buddy had given him some handlaods that had been worked up for buddies 270. Safe in one safe in all thinking.
Turns out it wasn't safe. First round he had difficulty opening the bolt.
Second round it locked the bolt.
He hammered the bolt open and tried a third round. When it locked up the third time he decided to ask me for my thoughts.
I asked if he had any of that ammo left. He did, and he had the load data used.
So I pulled a couple of bullets and weighed the charges, all were mid data loads, well under max. And they varied by 4 grains. I don't know what the spent catridges had in them but I'm guessing two were more then 4 gains over the other.
Next I ran a couple of the spent cartridges through my resizing die. They run through much easier then I expected.
I did notice the primers were flatter then any I had seen before and one was blown open. All three were set back.
At that point there wasn't anything more I could check. So I gave the rifle back to him and suggested he hang it on the wall as a reminder of what not to do.
I told him that I wouldn't trust that rifle no matter what was fed into it.
I told him there could be microscopic cracks in the lock lugs or the action or both and I had no way of testing for that.
I figure his rifle had a much tighter chamber then his buddies rifle. But I had no way to test for that I hadn't already done
That was the end of my involvement with that rifle. I don't know what he did with it.
The lesson I learned is that even a mid data load can be dangerous.
And to never use ammo worked up in someone else's rifle.
I never start anywhere other then at minimum load. And even then I look for flattened primers.
I have a chorny and use it on every load when working up a load, but the data it produces is not used to calculate over pressure.
I only use it to gauge consistency, for accuracy purposes.
I load for accuracy. An extra 100 fps does nothing if you miss the bulls eye.
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Three things, one, your BIL obviously has no clue about firearms to keep firing the rifle with those loads after the first fired case was hard to extract, and the second one locked up the action. Two, regardless of what the loads were labelled, if they varied by 4 grains or more, some really were not a mid range load, 4 grains takes you from a mid range 270win load to a max load, or more. Three, if the loads varied by 4 grains or more, the person that loaded them should not be loading, as he has no clue what he is doing.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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11-28-2022, 07:21 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,526
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I have to agree wirh thw others that responded Keg, 4 grains varience has nothing to do with the load. Either starting or mid data.
It has to do with the QC of the loading porcedure.
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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11-28-2022, 07:39 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,768
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The BIGGEST single factor in pressure issues that I have found is brass selection followed by bullet selection. We all can read a manual and a scale. Powder is easy. But if you are swapping load data that was developed for R-P brass let’s say and you switch to Lapua or Peterson brass, you will have pressure problems. Same goes if you are swapping Sciroccos in a load that was worked up with ELDM’s.
That’s why I find some of these stories about wild pressure problems with max published charges hard to believe sometimes. That is likely not the entire story.
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11-28-2022, 10:30 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
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For those interested here’s the subject bolt and case. The case and bolt failed at the weakest spot which is the extractor cut. Buddy’s gunsmith salvaged the barrel and says the action is ok too.
Last edited by brewster29; 11-28-2022 at 10:59 AM.
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11-28-2022, 11:03 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
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And the stock…
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11-28-2022, 12:56 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat
I have to agree with the others that responded Keg, 4 grains varience has nothing to do with the load. Either starting or mid data.
It has to do with the QC of the loading porcedure.
Cat
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It does say 4 grains, I missed the period.
It is supposed to read .4 grains. But no matter, I had nothing to do with the person who loaded them or the choice to use them in another gun.
I didn't want to write a whole page or more to explain every last detail of what was done, said and recomended.
My bad. Clearly my point was missed.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
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11-28-2022, 02:10 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Near Drumheller
Posts: 6,733
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I've encountered powder that didn't want to come out of a round I was taking apart, but, it is easy to see, and I seldom tumble cases, so a lot of mine are dark inside, still, if there was powder left in there, he didn't look very hard at all, it is still quite plainly obvious. Call what happened in the shooter's case being too lazy or in too big a hurry to properly check what he was doing. People are people, they get in a hurry and skip steps or do them half assed. There are people all over the place that do stuff like load over max book values and get away with it, and most of the "common" methods of gauging pressure aren't worth the powder to blow themselves to hell in reality, untill a failure or sticky bolts happen. Old Speer manuals are a perfect example, not done with CUP pressure tests, done with measuring case expansion, and then when properly checked, was as much as 10K over SAAMI spec maxes on the high variable end of them. Ed Matunas did an article years back talking about it, he was the the one who did it originally, his name is in the books as the test ballistician. And now, people keep harping about "lawyered" manuals, if they actually read how the SAAMI tests are conducted and the results obtained by various testers, they'd likely be a little quieter about it. Ken Oehler has written a few notes about what they've found, and they've done many, many thousands of pressure/speed tests at Oehler. And any website or manual can have mistakes in them, there are or have been articles, warnings etc published on them. Some forums have stickies keeping track of them and powder recalls. Some powders got taken off the market because of batch inconsistencies that could not be cured in production, still some of it out there, and people trying to use them.
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11-28-2022, 05:06 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
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I have run across the old Speer manual issue especially as it relates to the 7 REM mag. Also last year I tried to load some 7 STW using Layne Simpson’s original data from his article about the 7 and encountered extreme pressures and velocities several hundred fps higher than expected.
Last edited by brewster29; 11-28-2022 at 05:15 PM.
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11-28-2022, 06:32 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,526
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I have talked to several ballisticans about the .243 Winchester years ago , and its tendency to get pressure spikes at an alarmimg rate and the pressure ceiling that SAAMI came up with for it , and have read several articles in the past that mentioned the issues that SAAMI had with the original data given them for the 7STW.
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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11-28-2022, 09:58 PM
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Shooting Xs
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 836
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A little too much powder?
So, what you're saying is if you powder charge cases with this method,
You may get this result?
I think I got it now.
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11-28-2022, 10:05 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
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Perzactly!
Fill it full. Tamp down with dowel and hammer. Seat bullet.
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11-29-2022, 11:11 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,772
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The thing with handloading people don't know an undercharge can explode a gun just as bad as an overcharge. The minimum charge is the starting point because it is the safest point to start where you can get decent performance and then you go up from there.
Unrealistic expectations are often the key to failure, trying to get 7mmSTW velocities out of a 20" barreled 7-08 is not going to happen.
My mentor told me to load for precision not speed. having 100fps more with a 2MOA group has less chance of hitting a deer at 400 yards than a 1/2 MOA group that is 100 fps slower. There is more variance than there is drop difference
400 yards +- 1.5 MOA is +- 6 inches variance vs +- 2" meaning you could be dropping 4" lower with the faster bullet.....
100fps and drop difference at 400 yards with a 7-08 168 grain bullet between 2700 and 2800 is a delta of .6" (using JBM ballistics)
so you lose 4" of accuracy to gain .6" less drop.... and push everything harder than it needs to be
Now my 300WSM gained accuracy as I go up in pressure and speed and am sitting at almost max and starting to flatten primers i can go 61-65 grains and 64 is the ticket of best precision with 165 Nosler PT but that would be above max load for a HDY GMX 165 (max is 62.5) According to Hodgdon reloading site.
Staying within the chart is important but staying within what the gun is capable is also important.
Handloading is very rewarding and fun (and yes frustrating) but attention to detail is utmost and the books were written by people that do this for a living and subject to liability so they take it seriously.
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11-29-2022, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nekred
The thing with handloading people don't know an undercharge can explode a gun just as bad as an overcharge. The minimum charge is the starting point because it is the safest point to start where you can get decent performance and then you go up from there.
Unrealistic expectations are often the key to failure, trying to get 7mmSTW velocities out of a 20" barreled 7-08 is not going to happen.
My mentor told me to load for precision not speed. having 100fps more with a 2MOA group has less chance of hitting a deer at 400 yards than a 1/2 MOA group that is 100 fps slower. There is more variance than there is drop difference
400 yards +- 1.5 MOA is +- 6 inches variance vs +- 2" meaning you could be dropping 4" lower with the faster bullet.....
100fps and drop difference at 400 yards with a 7-08 168 grain bullet between 2700 and 2800 is a delta of .6" (using JBM ballistics)
so you lose 4" of accuracy to gain .6" less drop.... and push everything harder than it needs to be
Now my 300WSM gained accuracy as I go up in pressure and speed and am sitting at almost max and starting to flatten primers i can go 61-65 grains and 64 is the ticket of best precision with 165 Nosler PT but that would be above max load for a HDY GMX 165 (max is 62.5) According to Hodgdon reloading site.
Staying within the chart is important but staying within what the gun is capable is also important.
Handloading is very rewarding and fun (and yes frustrating) but attention to detail is utmost and the books were written by people that do this for a living and subject to liability so they take it seriously.
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The actual charge weights don't mean a great deal for rifles and components other than those used to derive those charts. I am running 2 gr less than the Barnes manual for my 7mmstw 150gr TTSX load, but my velocity is actually more than they list for the maximum load.I ran 2.5gr more than the manual for my 270wsm load, but my velocity was 100fps less than the manual, despite my Ruger #1 having 4" more barrel, so I continued working up the load.The simple fact is that all manuals mention working up loads, because they only used one rifle, and one lot of components, so they can't predict the results in your rifle, with your lot of components.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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11-29-2022, 03:21 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: onoway, Ab
Posts: 6,956
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Working up loads is significantly easier with a quality chronograph. I generally load 3 of each starting about mid way. What ever shows the best group with a velocity close to what I want is where I start fine tuning.
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11-29-2022, 05:30 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewster29
I have run across the old Speer manual issue especially as it relates to the 7 REM mag. Also last year I tried to load some 7 STW using Layne Simpson’s original data from his article about the 7 and encountered extreme pressures and velocities several hundred fps higher than expected.
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I've safely used Layne's data with no problem but one lot of powder caused a very tight action and blown primers.
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11-30-2022, 08:12 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
The actual charge weights don't mean a great deal for rifles and components other than those used to derive those charts. I am running 2 gr less than the Barnes manual for my 7mmstw 150gr TTSX load, but my velocity is actually more than they list for the maximum load.I ran 2.5gr more than the manual for my 270wsm load, but my velocity was 100fps less than the manual, despite my Ruger #1 having 4" more barrel, so I continued working up the load.The simple fact is that all manuals mention working up loads, because they only used one rifle, and one lot of components, so they can't predict the results in your rifle, with your lot of components.
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This is so true.
They make ii generally speaking safe for all reloaders.
When I had my STW I chased the speed then tried to get the accuracy dialled in but those days are over.
The little 6-284 has the speed but super accurate and a lot less recoil too
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11-30-2022, 08:56 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Rat
I've safely used Layne's data with no problem but one lot of powder caused a very tight action and blown primers.
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I dropped his powder charge 3 grains, but obtained the same velocity in my rifles.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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