Leveling scope reticles

[tchardy1972]

Well Savage Shooter, you must be getting exhausted by now. I agree with you 100% and to help you out, I have an old 22hornet with an offset scope. I would be willing to lend it out to help prove this point. I can tell you for a fact that it shoots on a different horizontal plane at 50 yards than it does at 250. It's not huge and with some fancy sighting in it ends up being nil with this cartridge.

[jungleboy]

I never realized there was so much voodoo magic involved in putting a scope on a gun. Here I have been mounting my own scopes on my guns, all my hunting life and killing deer! After reading through this thread I think It sounds to me like a near impossible task to mount a scope . Maybe I have just been lucky.

[Bigmountainrider]

I don't know if this has been touched, but its more about verification that your scope is truly mounted level. A 36" peice of paper with a line drawn vertically through the center of it. Mounted on a target backing so that the line is perfectly vertical. 100yds distance. Mark a dot on the bottom end of your line. Shoot a 100yrd zero at the dot. Taking in mind repeatable steps ei: gun is level, scope is level. Once Zeroed dail scope up 30ish MOA and repeat shots at the same dot. IF every thing is mounted true you should find your second holes on the line above your dot, if they are not your scope is off or is not tracking correctly.

[baptiste_moose]

That is brilliant!!

[6.5 shooter]

I will try to re explain this cant thing using archery equipment.....

I shot a martin compound bow for years with fingers and brass sights the sight progressively moved to the LEFT to compensate for my cant on the bow even though I thought I was holding the bow square.

This spring I bought a new bow (to me) which I installed a well known sight which has both a vertical line as well as a bubble and the pins cannot independently be moved left or right only the whole gang of pins at once.

My old 20 is now my new 40+ yds by that I mean my grouping has improved by a factor of X% and I group BETTER at 40yds then I did at 20yds and it is all due to cant.

So you can say that cant doesn't matter but the truer your bullet follows the line of the bore of the rifle the less chance that the bullet will strike left or right of the target at any range. The animals we hurt deserve that much respect, and if you were out in the gopher patch with a canted rifle this would become blatantly apparent as ranges change constantly. You could get away with blaming the wind for a while but we all know who really is to blame.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

I will try to re explain this cant thing using archery equipment.....

I shot a martin compound bow for years with fingers and brass sights the sight progressively moved to the LEFT to compensate for my cant on the bow even though I thought I was holding the bow square.

This spring I bought a new bow (to me) which I installed a well known sight which has both a vertical line as well as a bubble and the pins cannot independently be moved left or right only the whole gang of pins at once.

My old 20 is now my new 40+ yds by that I mean my grouping has improved by a factor of X% and I group BETTER at 40yds then I did at 20yds and it is all due to cant.

So you can say that cant doesn't matter but the truer your bullet follows the line of the bore of the rifle the less chance that the bullet will strike left or right of the target at any range. The animals we hurt deserve that much respect, and if you were out in the gopher patch with a canted rifle this would become blatantly apparent as ranges change constantly. You could get away with blaming the wind for a while but we all know who really is to blame.

Except that a bullet does not rely on an arrow rest to steady it as it leaves the gun it goes down a tube with rifling

[6.5 shooter]

It is also traveling much slower and shows poor form much quicker

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

It is also traveling much slower and shows poor form much quicker

It's also about 30 inches longer than the average lead pill. sort of like comparing a Corvette to a forklift not exactly in the same ball park.

[6.5 shooter]

About the same length as the average super dupper sniper barrel!

Not much sense arguing the point as everyone seems to have their minds made up right or wrong so I will leave it at that!

[savage shooter]

[gitrdun]

LOL....that picture pretty well sums it up. Nice to have seen such a long running thread with both sides of the discussion steadfully holding ground yet not turning it into a bash fest.

[abbgdr]

If you watch any of the long range hunting shows they all stress the importance of having the vertical cross hair dissecting the centre of the bore. I have worked with and shot alongside several military snipers. They are meticulous about this alignment. Not only do they level them, they shoot at various distances to confirm.
It baffles me that people don't grasp this concept. There's a fellow out here who mounts scopes for a local store that sells guns and every scope he mounts is 10-15 degrees out of line with centre of bore. But then he was also baffled that I lapped my rings,,, I have come to the conclusion that there is no cure for red neck 'ingenuity'

[twofifty]

"But then he was also baffled that I lapped my rings,,, I have come to the conclusion that there is no cure for red neck 'ingenuity' "

Uh oh.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

Well Savage Shooter, you must be getting exhausted by now. I agree with you 100% and to help you out, I have an old 22hornet with an offset scope. I would be willing to lend it out to help prove this point. I can tell you for a fact that it shoots on a different horizontal plane at 50 yards than it does at 250. It's not huge and with some fancy sighting in it ends up being nil with this cartridge.

Savage Shooter / Travis, if you sight in your offset "level" scope windage for maximum distance you'll shoot at, as you come back to closer targets your MOA (windage) error will be tiny. So if your side mount offset is 1.5" with a 1000 yd zero the maximum error will be 1.5" at the muzzle.
http://www.bangsteel.wordpress.com/2...-thedifference

For some reason this link doesn't lead directly to page, scroll down to recent posts and click on "canted".

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Savage Shooter / Travis, if you sight in your offset "level" scope windage for maximum distance you'll shoot at, as you come back to closer targets your MOA (windage) error will be tiny. So if your side mount offset is 1.5" with a 1000 yd zero the maximum error will be 1.5" at the muzzle.
http://www.bangsteel.wordpress.com/2...-thedifference

For some reason this link doesn't lead directly to page, scroll down to recent posts and click on "canted".

Perfect. I'm not saying that it is a problem, as my 22 hornet has hit its fair share of gophers at various ranges. I was just pointing out that the condition does exist, and I also said I deal with it with some "fancy" sighting in.

Now since we are all on the same page. We can all be friends again.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

Now since we are all on the same page. We can all be friends again.

Nope

[savage shooter]

That's totally impractical for the hunter as they have no way of knowing their maximum shot distance and often can't zero their rifle in at that distance.

Again, the problem is that people with canted scopes are not even aware that they have an "offset scope" and so will not take any precautions such as that mentioned by you above.

If they zero their rifle at 100 yards as so many seem to do and take a shot at a much longer distance, it can become a problem.

It is so simple and easy to level your reticle to the bore and prevents this problem. I'm not sure why anyone on earth would argue against doing it.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Savage Shooter / Travis, if you sight in your offset "level" scope windage for maximum distance you'll shoot at, as you come back to closer targets your MOA (windage) error will be tiny. So if your side mount offset is 1.5" with a 1000 yd zero the maximum error will be 1.5" at the muzzle.
http://www.bangsteel.wordpress.com/2...-thedifference

For some reason this link doesn't lead directly to page, scroll down to recent posts and click on "canted".

This guy is as confused as some others. The image he shows is not of a canted scope. It is a scope mounted on the side of a barrel that when held level simply changes what is considered the top of the barrel.

In the real world there would be a set of rings/bases directly (or close to) above the action. Image a set of rings on this diagram and then put his canted scope in them instead of directly above the bore.

[IMG][/IMG]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Of course you can mount your rings/bases anywhere along the circumference of the barrel and still be directly above the bore when the scope is held level.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by MK2750

This guy is as confused as some others. The image he shows is not of a canted scope. It is a scope mounted on the side of a barrel that when held level simply changes what is considered the top of the barrel.

In the real world there would be a set of rings/bases directly (or close to) above the action. Image a set of rings on this diagram and then put his canted scope in them instead of directly above the bore.

[IMG][/IMG]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Of course you can mount your rings/bases anywhere along the circumference of the barrel and still be directly above the bore when the scope is held level.

What I said earlier is whatever it takes to level the cross-hairs to the waterline on the target works. Why waste time getting everything level to your base when your base may in fact not be level. I don't know how to dissect this small enough for your level of understanding to kick in. Square to target is more important than square to rifle and or base.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by savage shooter

That's totally impractical for the hunter as they have no way of knowing their maximum shot distance and often can't zero their rifle in at that distance.

Again, the problem is that people with canted scopes are not even aware that they have an "offset scope" and so will not take any precautions such as that mentioned by you above.

If they zero their rifle at 100 yards as so many seem to do and take a shot at a much longer distance, it can become a problem.

It is so simple and easy to level your reticle to the bore and prevents this problem. I'm not sure why anyone on earth would argue against doing it.

So now you're telling me hunters should not sight in for their longest possible shot. If your scope was offset left from bore one inch and you had sighted in a 300 yd zero with that rifle you would be one inch right at 600 yds if your reticle is square to target and you knew what your come-ups were with the bullet used. At 1200 yds shot would be two inches right. When I mount a scope I could care less if the vertical is above the bore, what I need is the vertical square to bullet path. By the way I've quite forgotten the IQ insult remarks you made previously.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

What I said earlier is whatever it takes to level the cross-hairs to the waterline on the target works. Why waste time getting everything level to your base when your base may in fact not be level. I don't know how to dissect this small enough for your level of understanding to kick in. Square to target is more important than square to rifle and or base.

BOTH are imparitive to accurarcy at different ranges. You must be able to draw a straight line from the cross hairs to the center of the bore (or bullet path). This line should be one and the same with the verticle post in the scope.

WHY?

Because when you adjust your reticle for distance it too will travel along this same straight line. It is also imparitive for hold over so the POI is somewhere on the verticle line.

Try that with a set of rings/bases included in the image above.

I don't know how to make this big enough for your level of understanding.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

what I need is the vertical square to bullet path. By the way I've quite forgotten the IQ insult remarks you made previously.

MY GAWD! This is what we have been arguing about for 3 days.

If you understand the vertical has to be square with the bullet path, what are you arguing about. That is what everyone else has been saying and you keep insisting it is irrelevant.

If all along you are speaking of OFFSET (like in the image above) rather than CANTED like you have been arguing, we are simply driving ourselves crazy for no apparent reason.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by MK2750

BOTH are imparitive to accurarcy at different ranges. You must be able to draw a straight line from the cross hairs to the center of the bore (or bullet path). This line should be one and the same with the verticle post in the scope.

WHY?

Because when you adjust your reticle for distance it too will travel along this same straight line. It is also imparitive for hold over so the POI is somewhere on the verticle line.

Try that with a set of rings/bases included in the image above.

I don't know how to make this big enough for your level of understanding.

My black lab gets it but you don't. If the vertical cross-hair is square to the bullet path, and mounted on rifle receiver it is hard to imagine that vertical being even 1/8th of an inch out. If you sight in at 500 yds you have a zero at 500 yds, right? As you dial your vertical down for closer range the horizontal shift will be 1/16th" at 250 yds, and all the way back to your muzzle where maximum horizontal shift will be a whopping 1/8th" inch.

Another point with the same rifle, if you dial up from 500 to 1000 yds and don't take into account spin-drift, wind, mirage, etc, your bullet will impact a whopping 1/8th" away from your crosshair hold.

[jungleboy]

next time I take a 1000yd shot at a deer I am gonna be soooo stressed



More important than your gun cant is can you identify your target at 1000 yrds and be certain... I bet you "cant"

[savage shooter]

I said it before and this time I really mean it. I give up. Some people you just can't reach

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by savage shooter

I said it before and this time I really mean it. I give up. Some people you just can't reach

Ppppffftttt!

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

My black lab gets it but you don't. If the vertical cross-hair is square to the bullet path, and mounted on rifle receiver it is hard to imagine that vertical being even 1/8th of an inch out. If you sight in at 500 yds you have a zero at 500 yds, right? As you dial your vertical down for closer range the horizontal shift will be 1/16th" at 250 yds, and all the way back to your muzzle where maximum horizontal shift will be a whopping 1/8th" inch.

Another point with the same rifle, if you dial up from 500 to 1000 yds and don't take into account spin-drift, wind, mirage, etc, your bullet will impact a whopping 1/8th" away from your crosshair hold.

My dogs are champion English Labradors. When they retire from hunting they plan to move to Peace River and teach.

Dale, you have changed your arguement. It now seems square to the bullet path is most important (like everyone else has been saying all along) where earlier you insisted that square to the target is all that is important.

Anywho, the OP was wondering if leveling the crosshairs was important. Us mortals understand that the round barrel is screwed into a reciever with a flat spot for mounting bases rings and optics. If you mount your bases/rings properly and square your crosshairs in said rings, you can be reasonably certain your crosshairs are above and square to the path of the bullet. At least enough for hunting accuracy out to 400 yards.

If however, you twist the scope in the rings so they are at say 5:30 like your image, you can be equally certain that you are not square to the bullet path.

They correct answer to the OPs question is YES it is important because this will put you reasonably close to square to the path of the bullet.

The incorrect answer would be NO, all that matters is that your crosshairs are square to the target.

Why don't you read through the thread again and see who has given the correct answers.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by MK2750

My dogs are champion English Labradors. When they retire from hunting they plan to move to Peace River and teach.

Dale, you have changed your arguement. It now seems square to the bullet path is most important (like everyone else has been saying all along) where earlier you insisted that square to the target is all that is important.

Anywho, the OP was wondering if leveling the crosshairs was important. Us mortals understand that the round barrel is screwed into a reciever with a flat spot for mounting bases rings and optics. If you mount your bases/rings properly and square your crosshairs in said rings, you can be reasonably certain your crosshairs are above and square to the path of the bullet. At least enough for hunting accuracy out to 400 yards.

If however, you twist the scope in the rings so they are at say 5:30 like your image, you can be equally certain that you are not square to the bullet path.

They correct answer to the OPs question is YES it is important because this will put you reasonably close to square to the path of the bullet.

The incorrect answer would be NO, all that matters is that your crosshairs are square to the target.

Why don't you read through the thread again and see who has given the correct answers.

I will let you in on a little secret. If vertical crosshair is square to target it is square to bullet's flight path. There is nothing more to it. Once more level vertical cross hair to target. Bingo!

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

I will let you in on a little secret. If vertical crosshair is square to target it is square to bullet's flight path. There is nothing more to it. Once more level vertical cross hair to target. Bingo!

That just great Dale. I will duct tape my scope to the side of my rifle knowing full well the bullet will majically square itself directly along the verticle line as long as I square the scope to the target.

Does the scope even need to be attached to the rifle?

As you using factory ammo or loading these majic bullets?

[savage shooter]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

I will let you in on a little secret. If vertical crosshair is square to target it is square to bullet's flight path. There is nothing more to it. Once more level vertical cross hair to target. Bingo!

Lol. A demonstrated complete lack of understanding.