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06-06-2017, 12:02 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
But how a well structured age class will happen if there is no harvest ( except hooking mortality)? They eventually will get stunted. Plus now we have 0 limit for Pike in CW, Travers and McGregor as well - why? Even more competition for food for all that walleye which nobody can harvest. I just do not understand the reasoning for this or what we are trying to achieve here. Travers was just fine, all you needed to do is to protect spawning grounds and introduce bait ban to deter shore fishing meatheads.
Pigeon lake used to be just skinny small walleye as well, now at least you have tags so people can keep few if they do not mind paying extra. I remember 8-10 years ago people complaining how difficult it is to catch decent size walleye in Pigeon.
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How did age classes get structured and normalize before people were fishing in these lakes? I'm pretty sure nature can look after itself on that one...
Stunting is not normal or unavoidable by any stretch. It requires the assumption that food/forage base is a major limiting factor. I would argue that other than a few rare examples (PCR), forage base is not a significant limiting factor to growth. The rebound at Pigeon is a good example of that. Quit taking all the big fish out because that's all you could keep, and "miraculously" there's more big fish to be caught.
I also don't understand your crusade against fishing with bait. I would STRONGLY oppose any such regulation changes. The stats above show that the difference in mortality between bait and baitless is not significant. The whole idea is for the angler to be able to catch fish. It should be up to the individual angler to make that choice, along with their fishing technique, not someone who feels it makes catching fish "too easy" for the "meatheads". That's the kind of elitism we don't need as outdoorsmen.
A few good high catch rate days in the spring, at obvious hot spots, isn't reason for a knee jerk reaction or criticism of the angler. It's normal, it happens every year. Wait until mid summer when the fish are spread out and all will be back to normal.
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06-06-2017, 12:05 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
What lakes are we talking about? Plus again, why a zero limit for a pike in those lakes if all we care is walleye population? Pike is even more susceptible to hooking mortality than walleye btw.
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What gives you the impression that anglers only care about Walleye?
What are you basing that on? Do you have actual studies to back that up?
That definitely is not my experience. From what I've seen, pike, especially the small ones, are pretty much indestrucible lol.
The biggest factor going against pike survival rates is being caught using spoons and crankbaits covered in treble hooks that cause damage. (not live bait)
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06-06-2017, 12:07 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian
I would hazard to guess that any jurisdiction that has such a rule also has relatively few fisherman.
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Swiss has 275.000 registered anglers.
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06-06-2017, 12:09 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
What are you basing that on? Do you have actual studies to back that up?
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http://www.westernsportsman.com/2014...h-and-release/
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06-06-2017, 12:11 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
The biggest factor going against pike survival rates is being caught using spoons and crankbaits covered in treble hooks that cause damage. (not live bait)
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Fishing with bait will result in almost every pike getting hooked deep in the throat or gill area. Especially in winter when people take time to get to their tip ups.
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06-06-2017, 12:13 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
I also don't understand your crusade against fishing with bait. I would STRONGLY oppose any such regulation changes. The stats above show that the difference in mortality between bait and baitless is not significant. .
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It is actually quite significant. Read link I posted please.
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06-06-2017, 12:15 PM
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Banned
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
How about bait ban? Nobody seems to like talking about it. I think using artificial bait is way more sporty way of fishing and helps with reducing fishing mortality a lot. You may catch less, but will have way more fun. Again, back to European fishing derby examples, nobody would let you use bait in any spinning fishing derbies. It is all about lures, lines, rods and different techniques.
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Have you never read The fishing regulations?
Plenty of places with bait bans.
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06-06-2017, 12:15 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
The rebound at Pigeon is a good example of that. Quit taking all the big fish out because that's all you could keep, and "miraculously" there's more big fish to be caught.
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May I ask when Pigeon lake had a catch and keep rule for walleye? As far as I remember it was always 0 limit for last 15 years.
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06-06-2017, 12:16 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ETOWNCANUCK
Have you never read The fishing regulations?
Plenty of places with bait bans.
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Can you point to one where you can keep walleye?
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06-06-2017, 12:19 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 7,350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
How did age classes get structured and normalize before people were fishing in these lakes? I'm pretty sure nature can look after itself on that one...
Stunting is not normal or unavoidable by any stretch. It requires the assumption that food/forage base is a major limiting factor. I would argue that other than a few rare examples (PCR), forage base is not a significant limiting factor to growth. The rebound at Pigeon is a good example of that. Quit taking all the big fish out because that's all you could keep, and "miraculously" there's more big fish to be caught.
I also don't understand your crusade against fishing with bait. I would STRONGLY oppose any such regulation changes. The stats above show that the difference in mortality between bait and baitless is not significant. The whole idea is for the angler to be able to catch fish. It should be up to the individual angler to make that choice, along with their fishing technique, not someone who feels it makes catching fish "too easy" for the "meatheads". That's the kind of elitism we don't need as outdoorsmen.
A few good high catch rate days in the spring, at obvious hot spots, isn't reason for a knee jerk reaction or criticism of the angler. It's normal, it happens every year. Wait until mid summer when the fish are spread out and all will be back to normal.
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Agree, well said
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eat a snickers
made in Alberta__ born n raised.
FS-Tinfool hats by the roll.
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06-06-2017, 12:19 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
Can you point to one where you can keep walleye?
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I wouldn't know,
I only catch and release.
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06-06-2017, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
Can you point to one where you can keep walleye?
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But I took the time to look.
http://www.albertaregulations.ca/fishingregs/nb4.html
Even some examples of bait bans
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06-06-2017, 12:24 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
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Read the article. Nothing there that I can find of any significance to support your claim. Mortality rates were the same as walleye when using single hooks, and well within the data range posted in studies above.
Mortality rates went up due to use of treble hooks, exactly as I would expect.
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06-06-2017, 12:25 PM
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
Fishing with bait will result in almost every pike getting hooked deep in the throat or gill area. Especially in winter when people take time to get to their tip ups.
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I don't agree with this at all, just this weekend we were walleye fishing, no leaders with JIgs and minnows or leeches. Caught at least 50 pike in the mix in the 4 days, NOT 1 wasn't caught on the lip using bait... I see your point on tip ups but you make too broad of a comment and easily disputable.
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06-06-2017, 12:28 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
How about bait ban? Nobody seems to like talking about it. I think using artificial bait is way more sporty way of fishing and helps with reducing fishing mortality a lot. You may catch less, but will have way more fun. Again, back to European fishing derby examples, nobody would let you use bait in any spinning fishing derbies. It is all about lures, lines, rods and different techniques.
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Personally I don't have a problem with a bait ban. Some others on here may not agree.
For me, I'm mostly fly fishing in open water times anyways and more often with my own tied inventions. During ice fishing I do use bait to catch burbot sometimes but that is about it. I like the idea of fooling the fish and the challenge of trying to get it right.
One other good side effect would be a huge reduction in bait bags and containers
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06-06-2017, 12:30 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
It is actually quite significant. Read link I posted please.
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Again, not much there to back up your claim.
"Using bait increases the chance of cryptic mortality, but by different degrees depending on species." So, there's some varying degrees of mortality, due in much bigger part to the type of species (trout) and fishing technique than bait vs. no bait.
"although 10 per cent of fish caught using leeches died soon after release because of hooking damage to the throat and gut." That is readily explainable if you've got anglers rigging with leeches that don't know how to properly remove the hooks, the same is true if you're rigging with a worm or even minnows. Jigging with a leech or a minnow, there's ZERO difference.
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06-06-2017, 12:30 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
Read the article. Nothing there that I can find of any significance to support your claim.
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from article:
"Some general patterns emerge from this review. Using bait increases the chance of cryptic mortality, but by different degrees depending on species."
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06-06-2017, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
Again, not much there to back up your claim.
"Using bait increases the chance of cryptic mortality, but by different degrees depending on species." So, there's some varying degrees of mortality, due in much bigger part to the type of species (trout) and fishing technique than bait vs. no bait.
"although 10 per cent of fish caught using leeches died soon after release because of hooking damage to the throat and gut." That is readily explainable if you've got anglers rigging with leeches that don't know how to properly remove the hooks, the same is true if you're rigging with a worm or even minnows. Jigging with a leech or a minnow, there's ZERO difference.
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So you expect everybody who fishes with bait to rig it properly - a bit unrealistic? Just watch people in Glenmore for example catching pike from the shore. Terrible set ups, sitting from the rods by far distance, waiting to set the hook after bite indication and you will see tons of pike being pulled with hook in gills or throat and bleeding profusely. Granted, most of them are keeping them so maybe not a big deal but if we talking catch and release half of them would be dead for sure after release back.
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06-06-2017, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
Swiss has 275.000 registered anglers.
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So in other words, about half as many per capita as in Alberta. Great. Let's get rid of half our fishermen.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate
In this case Oki has cut to to the exact heart of the matter!
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06-06-2017, 12:36 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian
So in other words, about half as many per capita as in Alberta. Great. Let's get rid of half our fishermen.
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It was just an example. I am not supporting it.
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06-06-2017, 12:38 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
May I ask when Pigeon lake had a catch and keep rule for walleye? As far as I remember it was always 0 limit for last 15 years.
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Tons of good info out there on Pigeon.
Google - Pigeon Lake Fisheries Management Plan
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06-06-2017, 12:43 PM
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Banned
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Sometimes when you think you're ahead is when you need to realize you're actually behind.
AK47
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06-06-2017, 12:43 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ETOWNCANUCK
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Lol, thanks, I much rather drive to SK.
It would be interesting to see what effect bait ban would have on one of the popular walleye lakes.
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06-06-2017, 12:46 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
So you expect everybody who fishes with bait to rig it properly - a bit unrealistic? Just watch people in Glenmore for example catching pike from the shore. Terrible set ups, sitting from the rods by far distance, waiting to set the hook after bite indication and you will see tons of pike being pulled with hook in gills or throat and bleeding profusely. Granted, most of them are keeping them so maybe not a big deal but if we talking catch and release half of them would be dead for sure after release back.
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Do I expect everyone that drives to never break any rules of the road or have an accident? Of course not. Doesn't mean we should ban driving.
Education on proper techniques goes a long way, so does enforcement of the regs, but we'll never completely solve the problem. That's why there's a mortality rate due to sport fishing built into the calculations that are used to manage our fisheries.
The bottom line is pretty simple to me - fishing is about catching fish for 90+% of anglers. The challenge of catching them is a big part of it, but without the catch, the desire to keep challenging yourself goes away in a hurry. I want people to be successful and enjoy fishing, that's what keeps them coming back and keeps our sport alive. It also means they keep buying licenses and being a group that has to be considered when we're talking about our outdoors and fisheries.
Anything and everything can be abused, but banning things, at least IMHO, is never the answer.
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06-06-2017, 12:47 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
from article:
"Some general patterns emerge from this review. Using bait increases the chance of cryptic mortality, but by different degrees depending on species."
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Actually read what I post.
I directly addressed that.
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06-06-2017, 12:55 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyedude
Tons of good info out there on Pigeon.
Google - Pigeon Lake Fisheries Management Plan
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Thanks, I read through it. Again it does not talk much about times before 2000.
And it does estimate about 10% catch and release mortality when accounting for number of tags issued. For example in 2006 they estimated 12.000 walleye killed by C&R.
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06-06-2017, 12:57 PM
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I haven't read too many posts in here but I do have an opinion about this. I have seen so many people practicing catch and release and it seems that many people are not educated. I see so many people just drag fish up on the bank, no net, dry hands, never pinch barbs, throw (literally toss the fish) the fish back in to the water. If I am doing catch and release, the fish barely leaves the water. I try to remove the hook while the fish is in the water with plies, I always pinch barbs. I catch enough fish that I don't worry about the 1 or 2 I might miss because I am fishing barbless.
Banning catch and release would stop me from fishing gorgeous locations in Alberta in the mountains were you can't keep anything most of the time. So now nobody would get a chance to fish these locations? I fly fish, ice fish and kayak fish in open water. I practice catch and release a lot. I honestly don't think there is an issue as long as every precaution can be taken. There will be some issues with killing some fish once in a while but this is better than retaining fish on a regular basis.
Tight lines, set hooks, use the proper hooks, pinch barbs, use a net, don't drag the fish up the bank and let them flop around like mad. If everyone would follow simple steps to help the fish get back to their environment quickly and safely, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, yet again a few bad apples will ruin it for the rest of us responsible fishermen.
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06-06-2017, 01:19 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
Lol, thanks, I much rather drive to SK.
It would be interesting to see what effect bait ban would have on one of the popular walleye lakes.
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Still answered your question.
Pretty sure they're places near Calgary that you can keep walleye.
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06-06-2017, 01:37 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ETOWNCANUCK
Still answered your question.
Pretty sure they're places near Calgary that you can keep walleye.
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With bait ban? I am not aware of any.
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06-06-2017, 01:42 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK47
With bait ban? I am not aware of any.
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Read the Regs
A lot of places have them
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