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  #61  
Old 12-02-2020, 10:28 AM
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I agree with you TC. I am really happy you filed and appreciate the effort. I just could not get onboard with bogging down our already dysfunctional court system.
I understand, but disagree. There is a fundamental principle of property rights, due process, and justice (we were made criminals for other's criminal acts), that needs to be resisted and challenged. The courts are the place to do it. We didn't start this fight, and they are hoping we will not fight it. It's inconvenient for them when citizens resist the decrees of the government. I hope you would reconsider your view on it. If citizens don't stand up to their government and hold them accountable, they become subjects. Or worse.
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  #62  
Old 12-02-2020, 11:36 AM
IronNoggin IronNoggin is offline
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It strongly appears that all who didn't previously file (myself included) will have the opportunity to reconsider:

Court Win: Judge Sides With Gun Owner on ‘Nullification’ Notices

Court finds RCMP “nullification” tactic has no basis in law, offering new hope for 68,000 Canadians to request Section 74 hearings.

1 Dec 2020

TheGunBlog.ca — An Alberta court sided with a gun owner fighting the federal government and federal police’s regulatory attacks, marking a significant procedural win for the rights of Canadian hunters, sport shooters and firearm collectors.
Highlights

Judge finds “nothing” in law to support RCMP’s July 20 “nullification” trap.
Ruling allows Section 74 hearing challenging “nullification” to proceed, rejecting Liberal-RCMP efforts to block it.
Decision restores due process and offers new hope for 68,000 targeted gun owners who may decide to request Section 74 hearings.


Hello Section 74

Justice Allan Fradsham’s 15-page ruling for Ryan Stark yesterday in Calgary allows Stark to proceed with a hearing under Section 74 of the Firearms Act, as he fights to assert his legal rights and keep his guns.

Fradsham found no basis in law for the RCMP Registrar of Firearms’ “nullification” of firearm-registration certificates, a regulatory trap invented to criminalize honest citizens and confiscate their property.

‘Nothing’

“Nothing in the Firearms Act says that the Registrar can ‘nullify’ a registration certificate or declare it to be ‘no longer valid,’” Fradsham said in his ruling.

“The only power available to the Registrar the exercise of which would render the registration certificates ‘nullified’ and ‘no longer valid’ is the power of revocation,” the decision said.

The RCMP failed to obey procedures for revocation, the ruling said.


Dunn: ‘Clarify and Challenge’

“It is under that he filed a Section 74 application to clarify and challenge the legal effect of the ‘nullification’ notice,” Stark’s lawyer, Greg Dunn of Dunn & Associates, told TheGunBlog.ca today by telephone.

First Win

The case is the first win for Canada’s 2.2 million RCMP-approved firearm users against the governing Liberal Party and Royal Canadian Mounted Police’s May 1 attacks.

The confiscators worked to block Stark’s Section 74 hearing in provincial court, and are still trying to stop more than 120 similar cases across the country. They’re also working to defeat seven challenges in Federal Court.

Stark and hundreds of thousands of others still risk jail under the Liberal-RCMP crackdown unless they surrender their suddenly blacklisted rifles and shotguns to the police by 30 April 2022.

RCMP Comment

The RCMP has said the “nullifications” aren’t revocations and aren’t eligible for a Section 74 review.

“As this matter is currently before the courts, it would be inappropriate for the RCMP to comment at this time,” Catherine Fortin, a spokeswoman for the Ottawa-based RCMP, told TheGunBlog.ca today.

David Shiroky was the lawyer for the confiscators.

New Hope

The procedural victory offers new hope for the 68,000 gun owners who the RCMP specifically targeted with its unprecedented “nullification” trap.

They may decide to apply for hearings that some courts had blocked, even though the 30-day limit to apply has passed.
‘Everyone Has the Right to Due Process’

Dunn, who is also mounting a constitutional challenge by J.R. Cox of The Shooting Edge, said “everyone who receives one of these ‘nullification’ notices ultimately would have the benefit of a firearms reference hearing under Section 74 of the Firearms Act.”

“That means everyone has the right to appeal, everyone has the right to due process,” said Dunn. “That was ultimately what the government wanted to avoid, having thousands of these references in court.”

The case is: Attorney-General for Canada v Stark, 2020 ABPC 230

https://thegunblog.ca/2020/12/01/cou...ation-notices/
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  #63  
Old 12-02-2020, 11:46 AM
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Absolutely, IN. If the matter of the 30 day deadline to file comes up (letters were dated June 20 so we are well past filing date) the courts have the discretion to still hear your application. You will be required to give the reason for your late filing. A simple 'the RCMP lied to me and I believed them when they told me it wasn't a revocation' should suffice. It's still on their web page (or was yesterday) saying it wasn't a revocation. Needless to say, we have a record of that page, as well as earlier pages, where they initially indicated a grandfathering regime but then removed that part when the Unholy Poly Trinity screeched about it.

Anyway. C'mon people, get off the bleachers and get in the game.
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  #64  
Old 12-02-2020, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck View Post
I understand, but disagree. There is a fundamental principle of property rights, due process, and justice (we were made criminals for other's criminal acts), that needs to be resisted and challenged. The courts are the place to do it. We didn't start this fight, and they are hoping we will not fight it. It's inconvenient for them when citizens resist the decrees of the government. I hope you would reconsider your view on it. If citizens don't stand up to their government and hold them accountable, they become subjects. Or worse.
I most definitely agree that it needs to be challenged and applause you for doing it.
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  #65  
Old 12-02-2020, 12:27 PM
tranq78 tranq78 is offline
 
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It strongly appears that all who didn't previously file (myself included) will have the opportunity to reconsider:
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Originally Posted by darren32 View Post
I most definitely agree that it needs to be challenged and applause you for doing it.
Anyone who hasn't filed a Sec74 should do so. The judge on Nov. 30 reset the 30 day clock for you.

TC and I filed, and our revocation letters are effectively not in force until the end of court proceedings. The government can at any time decide to grandfather everyone who still has valid certificates, namely just the 100-200 of us who filed.

If the government decides to grandfather 30 days from now their problems with us can go away. We keep our firearms and the rest of you are hooped.

They aren't playing nice and you shouldn't either. Filing is free and easy, and if the govt pulls a fast one you will wish you filed so don't be that guy.
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  #66  
Old 12-08-2020, 09:16 AM
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Just putting this back up to the top. I've had a few people ask for the F-12 form so they could file, hoping they all have. Offer still stands for anyone considering as S74 hearing.
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  #67  
Old 12-08-2020, 12:07 PM
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I'm going to file this in the next few days. My brother was one of the successful Calgary applicants, so hopefully I have the forms in order based on his info.
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  #68  
Old 12-08-2020, 05:43 PM
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Has anybody in Red Deer asked for and received the paperwork from the court house?
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  #69  
Old 12-08-2020, 09:20 PM
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I'm going to file this in the next few days. My brother was one of the successful Calgary applicants, so hopefully I have the forms in order based on his info.
Nice! Good to hear.
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  #70  
Old 12-10-2020, 02:30 PM
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I've been very encouraged by the 7 or 8 people who have requested F-12 to file. For those who follow through, once you can confirm filing please let me know, we can exchange contact info, and I can put you in touch with others in your area. There are tremendous resources available to help you through this. Which is great, because I would be roadkill without it!
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  #71  
Old 12-18-2020, 03:41 PM
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Bringing this back up. There are several who have gone ahead and filed. Welcome Martyrs!!

If anyone is still considering filing, it is pretty imperative you do so prior to December 30. The ruling by Judge Fradsham was Nov 30 so that is the filing window. Anyone........anyone?

Buehler?
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  #72  
Old 12-19-2020, 08:45 PM
tranq78 tranq78 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck View Post
Bringing this back up. There are several who have gone ahead and filed. Welcome Martyrs!!

If anyone is still considering filing, it is pretty imperative you do so prior to December 30. The ruling by Judge Fradsham was Nov 30 so that is the filing window. Anyone........anyone?

Buehler?
For anyone who is self-representing I have a copy of a successful filing in Word format. Easy to just insert your name and docket number. Someone spent money on a lawyer to get this done up and they're sharing.

I sent a copy to TC as well so he can forward if you want.

For anyone who got that revocation letter you still have time to file a Sec74 and the resources are here to help you.
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  #73  
Old 12-22-2020, 11:42 AM
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Tick tock.

Just got off the phone with another gentleman who is in the process of filing. I have been encouraged by all those who have made the decision to have their day in court. Standing up for yourself in the face of groundless government oppression is a character building exercise!

There is still time for those sitting on the fence to file. I am available to help, as well as others.
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  #74  
Old 12-22-2020, 01:23 PM
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I will be filing the F-12 documents tomorrow in St. Paul, Alberta. Twisted Canuck was able to help me with the process of filing, and how to go about it. At first it seemed like a daunting task, but seems easy now with TC's help, and Tranq78, as mentioned, there is help available!

I cannot just sit on the fence and hope for the best, I want to keep my property, as It is mine! I urge others to do the same, fight for what is legally ours, and not be held responsible for our Federal Government's lack of sound judgment on this matter, we are not the criminals!






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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck View Post
Tick tock.

Just got off the phone with another gentleman who is in the process of filing. I have been encouraged by all those who have made the decision to have their day in court. Standing up for yourself in the face of groundless government oppression is a character building exercise!

There is still time for those sitting on the fence to file. I am available to help, as well as others.

Last edited by KUDUHNTR; 12-22-2020 at 01:30 PM.
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  #75  
Old 12-23-2020, 12:27 PM
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I just got back from filing my request / documents in Calgary, the whole process is actually pretty quick once you figure out what you need to do. Filing the documents in Calgary was so quick that I was able to take the C-Train downtown, do my business at the courthouse, and still have time on my transit ticket to use it for my return trip. Thank you Twisted Canuck for your help earlier.
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  #76  
Old 12-23-2020, 08:01 PM
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I filed mine in St Paul this afternoon, was fairly painless, had time to do some last minute shopping also!
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  #77  
Old 01-08-2021, 05:45 AM
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With the Feds appealing the deceison of the right to the Section 74 filing. What your opinions on what will happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=de...VtxfkeC7p6ZRTk
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  #78  
Old 01-08-2021, 03:16 PM
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With the Feds appealing the deceison of the right to the Section 74 filing. What your opinions on what will happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=de...VtxfkeC7p6ZRTk
I was talking to another Sec74 challenger about this today. There were about 10 people who were "case managed" in that Calgary decision. The Govt of Canada is only filing appeals against the ones who self-represented. The ones who had lawyers did not receive a notice of appeal. They are being selective about who they file an appeal against.

They are sending a message to the rest of us Sec 74 challengers -- don't exercise your legal right to challenge or we'll appeal and appeal to make you give up.

It also tells us that we are right and they are trying to intimidate us that are self-representing. I think it will have the opposite effect, it will just make us mad. We will be even more determined to go through with the challenge.

Last edited by tranq78; 01-08-2021 at 03:22 PM.
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  #79  
Old 01-08-2021, 03:37 PM
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I was talking to another Sec74 challenger about this today. There were about 10 people who were "case managed" in that Calgary decision. The Govt of Canada is only filing appeals against the ones who self-represented. The ones who had lawyers did not receive a notice of appeal. They are being selective about who they file an appeal against.

They are sending a message to the rest of us Sec 74 challengers -- don't exercise your legal right to challenge or we'll appeal and appeal to make you give up.

It also tells us that we are right and they are trying to intimidate us that are self-representing. I think it will have the opposite effect, it will just make us mad. We will be even more determined to go through with the challenge.
Not to contradict you, but all the cases are being appealed including Stark, according to my reliable sources. Including 2 of the Calgary crew represented by Dunn.

But it's still a dick move. The way I look at it, it's just going to make everyone dig in more, and will just put even more strain on the AGC, and ultimately make the government look bad for wasting so much resources persecuting the law abiding, instead of dealing with real public safety issues.
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  #80  
Old 01-08-2021, 03:41 PM
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Not to contradict you, but all the cases are being appealed including Stark, according to my reliable sources. Including 2 of the Calgary crew represented by Dunn.

But it's still a dick move. The way I look at it, it's just going to make everyone dig in more, and will just put even more strain on the AGC, and ultimately make the government look bad for wasting so much resources persecuting the law abiding, instead of dealing with real public safety issues.
Interesting to know. Agreed, we are still not going to be intimidated.
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  #81  
Old 01-08-2021, 06:47 PM
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Does anyone know of a Lawyer(s) who is willing to represent the AO groups as a whole.
Even if we can get a group of Lawyers in each area like Northern, Central and Southern area.

This issue is larger then the letters letters sent out. It has to do with the OIC itself. Until that is repealed we won't have much to stand on.
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  #82  
Old 01-08-2021, 07:55 PM
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Does anyone know of a Lawyer(s) who is willing to represent the AO groups as a whole.
Even if we can get a group of Lawyers in each area like Northern, Central and Southern area.

This issue is larger then the letters letters sent out. It has to do with the OIC itself. Until that is repealed we won't have much to stand on.
Individuals have to file S74s, not groups. As such, finding a lawyer to represent a large group is probably unlikely. I know of 5 who filed who are having the same lawyer represent them all. That is probably as good as you will get.

And I really (unfortunately) don't see much appetite from 'AO' to really get involved if it involves courts. I'd guess there aren't more then a dozen of us who have done it, and most of those filed after the Fradsham ruling and while I was pumping it here. It's great they did, but when you consider how many affected members of this forum there are? I don't see the need for a lawyer to represent a non existent group.

And filing an OIC challenge (which seems to be what you are talking about) is already being done by the firearms Orgs and a couple businesses. Support them with your $.
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  #83  
Old 01-08-2021, 08:20 PM
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My family filed individual section 74 a few months ago. I have had 1 court date via phone as covid hit again. They are trying to case manage us with the Edmonton area challenges and have it thrown out. I have another court date on the 11 to see what the judge says. The other judge that needs to make a decision if we will be added to the leduc proceedings has had 2 months lol. So as today is Friday I suspect a quick phone call on monday to set another date. As I have not recieved any other communication from the crown.....big waste of resources for sure. A big thanks to the members on here who have sent me the document resources. They are a huge help. I have helped 4 other guys at my work file as well. 3 of them are in fort mac. I think they are the only 3 that have filed up here. Sad as alot of ar 15 rifles are privately owned up here.
Keep up the good fight!!!
It makes a guy proud when he can sit his kids down and explain why you don't let the government get away with this @#$%.
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  #84  
Old 01-08-2021, 08:52 PM
tranq78 tranq78 is offline
 
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My family filed individual section 74 a few months ago. I have had 1 court date via phone as covid hit again. They are trying to case manage us with the Edmonton area challenges and have it thrown out. I have another court date on the 11 to see what the judge says. The other judge that needs to make a decision if we will be added to the leduc proceedings has had 2 months lol. So as today is Friday I suspect a quick phone call on monday to set another date. As I have not recieved any other communication from the crown.....big waste of resources for sure. A big thanks to the members on here who have sent me the document resources. They are a huge help. I have helped 4 other guys at my work file as well. 3 of them are in fort mac. I think they are the only 3 that have filed up here. Sad as alot of ar 15 rifles are privately owned up here.
Keep up the good fight!!!
It makes a guy proud when he can sit his kids down and explain why you don't let the government get away with this @#$%.
Good for you and your family.

I've talked to guys who filed challenges in St. Albert, Edson, Edmonton, Camrose (they're being case managed in Leduc), St. Paul.

Case management can help and hurt the govt. It saves the govt time but we can pool our resources. Some of the people who are being case managed have contacted each other and gotten a firearms lawyer.

If you want to send me a PM I can give you the contact info for a firearms lawyer. I have given this info to all the people I have talked to and some have hired him.

Our group has a court date of Jan 14 in Edmonton to determine jurisdiction. Believe me, it is definitely worth attending as an observer if you can do it.

Sadly there should have been 10,000 Sec74 challenges, not 150-200 across the country.

edit: forgot to add St. Paul

Last edited by tranq78; 01-08-2021 at 09:21 PM.
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  #85  
Old 01-08-2021, 09:07 PM
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Honda610, I had sent info and forms to somebody in Ft. Mac recently and they just filed on Monday. Maybe I could put you in touch with him (if you aren't already)? He is an AO member as well. Mutual support is our strength.
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  #86  
Old 01-09-2021, 12:09 AM
ctd ctd is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck View Post
Individuals have to file S74s, not groups. As such, finding a lawyer to represent a large group is probably unlikely. I know of 5 who filed who are having the same lawyer represent them all. That is probably as good as you will get.

And I really (unfortunately) don't see much appetite from 'AO' to really get involved if it involves courts. I'd guess there aren't more then a dozen of us who have done it, and most of those filed after the Fradsham ruling and while I was pumping it here. It's great they did, but when you consider how many affected members of this forum there are? I don't see the need for a lawyer to represent a non existent group.

And filing an OIC challenge (which seems to be what you are talking about) is already being done by the firearms Orgs and a couple businesses. Support them with your $.
I think one of the fears people have is if you loose a s74 ruling a judge can order the immediate repossession of your affected firearm (s)
I also think many are waiting on the court case from the various firearm groups.
Its a slippery slope. Many may feel their time and money is better spent supporting the firearm groups. Others may just be hoping for a change in government.

It will be interesting to see how the appeal goes.

I think trying to get everyone represented by a Lawyer for their s74 hearing is the nest way forward.
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  #87  
Old 01-09-2021, 12:48 AM
Deer_Hunter Deer_Hunter is offline
 
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Does anyone know what it would cost to have a lawyer file on your behalf?

Approximate figure
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  #88  
Old 01-09-2021, 06:12 AM
honda610 honda610 is offline
 
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Twisted Canuck. The guys I work with are not Ao members but it couldn't hurt to have another person to collaborate with.
Let's keep the pressure on.
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  #89  
Old 01-09-2021, 09:04 AM
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Does anyone know what it would cost to have a lawyer file on your behalf?



Approximate figure
$3k for us + GST

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  #90  
Old 01-09-2021, 04:53 PM
Deer_Hunter Deer_Hunter is offline
 
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Many may feel their time and money is better spent supporting the firearm groups. Others may just be hoping for a change in government.
Yea - if it costs 3000 to mount a reasonable challenge then you have to wonder if your money would be better spent in supporting a larger better funded challenge from a firearms group or even in supporting a political party to help defeat the Liberals.

After the whole Swiss Arms fiasco with the cons last time I am not really sure if they have our back anyways.
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