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  #121  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:35 AM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
If you think that energy is what kills a big game animal, then I question your understanding of how a bullet kills. Just as in archery, the main purpose of the projectile, is to cause a wound channel, so the animal bleeds out. The larger the wound channel, generally the quicker the animal bleeds out. And unlike an arrow, many bullets are capable of penetrating the largest bones to reach the vitals. This is where a larger, or tougher bullet does offer an advantage, because it will normally penetrate more bone to reach the vitals. As to a bullet that exits, vs one that stops in the animal, an exit wound can be an advantage, especially if you need to track an animal. As well, a bullet that normally exits on a lung shot, will generally penetrate more bone to reach the vitals.
The only exception to all of this would be impacts to the central nervous system, but the central nervous system is a small target, with a higher risk of not making a fatal hit.
Why do you think we cannot hunt with FMJ and that during the war that was all they could use? A straight penetration does less damage then something that exhibits all its energy into the animal. Shoot a gopher with a hollow point and a solid tip and see which does more damage.
  #122  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:37 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Are you serious? At what distance will a 26 Nosler out penetrate a 6.5 Creedmoor??? I think the obvious answer is at any distance.

In my opinion, where the Creedmoor becomes a bad choice is past the 400-600yd range depending on the animal you’re after and bullet selection of course.

I think a better question is at what distance will it mean the difference between a lethal or non lethal shot? I think the answer lies somewhere around most people’s maximum shooting capabilities, or in other words, I think the Creedmoor is capable of making a lethal shot on big game as far as 90% of hunters are capable of accurately shooting.

Keep in mind few hunters can shoot past 300yds accurately in field conditions (and that’s being generous), despite what they may believe. Trust me, I see it every single year and judging from these discussions there are a lot of guys who think the magnum will compensate for their marksmanship. The fact is, the magnum will only help if their marksmanship is as good as they think it is, which in most cases it is not.
Depending on the bullet, less impact velocity generally means less expansion, which can actually result in more penetration. This is why numbers alone is not an accurate method of predicting penetration.
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  #123  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:41 AM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Depending on the bullet, less impact velocity generally means less expansion, which can actually result in more penetration. This is why numbers alone is not an accurate method of predicting penetration.
There is a trade off between penetration and damage. Penetration doesn't mean anything if it isn't leaving the energy in the animal. Too much penetration does little damage. Too little penetration and the bullets won't go through bone.
  #124  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:43 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Why do you think we cannot hunt with FMJ and that during the war that was all they could use? A straight penetration does less damage then something that exhibits all its energy into the animal. Shoot a gopher with a hollow point and a solid tip and see which does more damage.
Compare the amount of bleeding that results from a pencil sized wound channel, and a wound channel that you can stick your fist through. The pencil sized wound channel through the lungs usually kills, but it takes a lot longer for the animal to bleed out, and there is the possibility of fat or other material sealing the wound.
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  #125  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:45 AM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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I have had bang flops, because the entire lung area was destroyed, so the effect was the same as having the wind knocked out of you, you drop instantly. The difference is that the blood pours out of the lungs, and the oxygen stops reaching the brain , and the animal dies very quickly.
I think you mean the hydrostatic shock knocked him down and damaged the lungs?

  #126  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Compare the amount of bleeding that results from a pencil sized wound channel, and a wound channel that you can stick your fist through. The pencil sized wound channel through the lungs usually kills, but it takes a lot longer for the animal to bleed out, and there is the possibility of fat or other material sealing the wound.
And that right there was from the energy being spent in the animal and not being wasted. Penetration without transferring the energy does little damage.
  #127  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:52 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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I think you mean the hydrostatic shock knocked him down and damaged the lungs?

Did you study physics at school? Action equals reaction, so if a bullet can physically knock a 300lb deer down, the recoil from the rifle should knock down a 300lb shooter. The deer collapses, it isn't physically knocked down by the bullet. Do you believe the movies when you see a man blown backwards by a shotgun blast?
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  #128  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:53 AM
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And that right there was from the energy being spent in the animal and not being wasted. Penetration without transferring the energy does little damage.
So how can an arrow kill, when it transfers so little energy into the animal? Yet an arrow can kill in seconds.
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  #129  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:54 AM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Did you study physics at school? Action equals reaction, so if a bullet can physically knock a 300lb deer down, the recoil from the rifle should knock down a 300lb shooter. The deer collapses, it isn't physically knocked down by the bullet. Do you believe the movies when you see a man blown backwards by a shotgun blast?
Don't be silly now, of course I didn't think the bullet knocked him down. The amplification of forces through hydrostatic shock and supersonic pressure waves did!
  #130  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:56 AM
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So how can an arrow kill, when it transfers so little energy into the animal? Yet an arrow can kill in seconds.
An arrow is meant to create blood loss by severing arteries. Hence why you use a blade and not a straight point.
  #131  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:00 PM
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Don't be silly now, of course I didn't think the bullet knocked him down. The amplification of forces through hydrostatic shock and supersonic pressure waves did!
I think he thinks you mean the deer is knocked over not knocked down.
  #132  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:02 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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I think he thinks you mean the deer is knocked over not knocked down.
Well that depends on the shooting angle of course.
  #133  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Depending on the bullet, less impact velocity generally means less expansion, which can actually result in more penetration. This is why numbers alone is not an accurate method of predicting penetration.
Yes I suppose you’re right, but because he’s talking about max load and max penetration I assume he’s also talking about a bullet designed to penetrate.
  #134  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:05 PM
Xbolt7mm Xbolt7mm is offline
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Did you study physics at school? Action equals reaction, so if a bullet can physically knock a 300lb deer down, the recoil from the rifle should knock down a 300lb shooter. The deer collapses, it isn't physically knocked down by the bullet. Do you believe the movies when you see a man blown backwards by a shotgun blast?
I believe that wild boar I shot in the face with my 45-70 while it was lying down slide back over a foot when the bullet stuck in its hide in the flank area after passing through most of its body
  #135  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewM View Post
An arrow is meant to create blood loss by severing arteries. Hence why you use a blade and not a straight point.
And a bullet is made to create blood loss by tearing arteries, the end result in both cases is that the animal bleeds out. But since it takes a lot less energy to cut those blood vessels than tear them, an arrow requires much less energy to kill.
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  #136  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm View Post
I believe that wild boar I shot in the face with my 45-70 while it was lying down slide back over a foot when the bullet stuck in its hide in the flank area after passing through most of its body
Unless the rifle was braked, the recoil energy pushing your shoulder back, would be slightly more than the energy pushing the boar. That is physics.
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  #137  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
And a bullet is made to create blood loss by tearing arteries, the end result in both cases is that the animal bleeds out. But since it takes a lot less energy to cut those blood vessels than tear them, an arrow requires much less energy to kill.
No a bullet isn't designed to just create blood less and tear arteries over the diameter of the bullet.
  #138  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Unless the rifle was braked, the recoil energy pushing your shoulder back, would be slightly more than the energy pushing the boar. That is physics.
And depending on how that weight is distributed on the ground along with friction depends on if it will move.
  #139  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Yes I suppose you’re right, but because he’s talking about max load and max penetration I assume he’s also talking about a bullet designed to penetrate.
As an example, I had four 7mm-08 bullets completely pass through a bull moose at 275 yards, because they didn't have enough remaining velocity to expand properly. The bull dropped his head after the first shot, and I fired until the gun was empty. Then he walked a short distance, and lay down and died. Had I been using a softer bullet, they would likely have still expanded, and done much more damage.
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  #140  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
As an example, I had four 7mm-08 bullets completely pass through a bull moose at 275 yards, because they didn't have enough remaining velocity to expand properly. The bull dropped his head after the first shot, and I fired until the gun was empty. Then he walked a short distance, and lay down and died. Had I been using a softer bullet, they would likely have still expanded, and done much more damage.
You just argued two different things so maybe you were misunderstanding or you just like to argue. A softer bullet would have done more damage due to less penetration and more energy transferred to the animal. To soft and it would have exploded on the hide.
  #141  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
As an example, I had four 7mm-08 bullets completely pass through a bull moose at 275 yards, because they didn't have enough remaining velocity to expand properly. The bull dropped his head after the first shot, and I fired until the gun was empty. Then he walked a short distance, and lay down and died. Had I been using a softer bullet, they would likely have still expanded, and done much more damage.
Yes, I’ve had similar experiences with my 280ai and Barnes ttsx bullets.
  #142  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:23 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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And depending on how that weight is distributed on the ground along with friction depends on if it will move.
Exactly, if the animal is laying on slippery ground, or is on a slope, it may be moved, but the movie scenes where the person is lifted off his feet and thrown backwards by the shotgun blast are nonsense. The same is true when people claim that their bullet knocked over a 1000lb moose that was standing on level dirt.
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  #143  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Exactly, if the animal is laying on slippery ground, or is on a slope, it may be moved, but the movie scenes where the person is lifted off his feet and thrown backwards by the shotgun blast are nonsense. The same is true when people claim that their bullet knocked over a 1000lb moose that was standing on level dirt.
Only if they are shooting a cannon!
  #144  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:32 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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No a bullet isn't designed to just create blood less and tear arteries over the diameter of the bullet.
An expanding bullet is designed to create a large wound channel, tearing blood vessels through a wound channel several times the diameter. of the bullet. The more blood vessels it tears, the quicker the animal bleeds out. In the case of a bullet not having enough velocity to expand, it simply doesn't tear as many blood vessels, so the animal bleeds out much more slowly. My moose still died, it just took longer.
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  #145  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:33 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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20.000 + cull shots from one man,,, more like 30 + thousands to-date.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/

A life time of reading on the ever changing endless paths of bullet construction.

What might work in one case study,,, might not apply in the next.

The trick is to find the magic pill that delivers the goods at all distances, velocities to the intended target.

Purhaps they call this the "performance acting trajectory."

PS: some of it might not be 100% in-line with the advancements of today's bullets,,, but the higher % of this information is pretty close.

The deciding factor might be,,, how well the critter with-stands the impact,,, and how its delivered to that zone.

The critter we are after in the moment that is.

I don't know this till things play out, I only hope that the bullets I picked work with in the parameters of what I'm after. The critter gets the last say on how it really plays out.

Yes,,, part of it is the present we buy,,, and how well its received at the other end.
  #146  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:43 PM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
An expanding bullet is designed to create a large wound channel, tearing blood vessels through a wound channel several times the diameter. of the bullet. The more blood vessels it tears, the quicker the animal bleeds out. In the case of a bullet not having enough velocity to expand, it simply doesn't tear as many blood vessels, so the animal bleeds out much more slowly. My moose still died, it just took longer.
Now you are agreeing with me. And less expansion due to high velocity you have the same condition. More energy transferred to the animal the larger the damage. Get it to the vitals and bang flop. Transfer it through the animal and you are following little spits of blood if you are lucky.
  #147  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:51 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Did you study physics at school? Action equals reaction, so if a bullet can physically knock a 300lb deer down, the recoil from the rifle should knock down a 300lb shooter. The deer collapses, it isn't physically knocked down by the bullet. Do you believe the movies when you see a man blown backwards by a shotgun blast?

I didn't study physics but the momentum of recoil has something to do with the weight and speed of the projectile and the weight of the rifle. There is an equal and opposite reaction but the weight of the rifle absorbs most of it.
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  #148  
Old 12-04-2018, 01:04 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
I didn't study physics but the momentum of recoil has something to do with the weight and speed of the projectile and the weight of the rifle. There is an equal and opposite reaction but the weight of the rifle absorbs most of it.
And if the weight of the rifle can absorb most of the recoil, the equivalent energy in the bullet, can't physically knock over a deer , let alone a moose or elk.
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  #149  
Old 12-04-2018, 01:06 PM
Xbolt7mm Xbolt7mm is offline
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Unless the rifle was braked, the recoil energy pushing your shoulder back, would be slightly more than the energy pushing the boar. That is physics.
Would the rifle weight and recoil pad not play into this as well and from what your saying to the othe guys a good recoil pad would remove ft lbs of energy from the bullet.

Last edited by Xbolt7mm; 12-04-2018 at 01:11 PM.
  #150  
Old 12-04-2018, 01:12 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm View Post
Would the rifle weight and recoil pad not play into this as well?
In order to push a 200lb boar one foot on level ground, it would take 200ftlbs of force. The recoil produced, would be the same 200ftlbs. A 600 Nitro Express produces about 150ftlbs, a typical big game rifle produces less than 1/3 of that.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 12-04-2018 at 01:21 PM.
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