Re-loading a Classic Caliber Help

Bigmountainrider · #1 03-12-2018, 08:39 AM

I'm Re-loading 40-82, Using IMR4198 and 260gr cast lead projectiles. I've tried loads from 23.5gr-26.0gr with little consistency at 50 yards. I have been shooting through a fenced gateway and I can hear powder hitting the fence and see in-burnt powder on the snow. I suspect the inconsistency comes from the incomplete powder burn. Should I use fill to top the case up? Or should I use magnum primers? Is there something I have missed? Any thoughts would be great.

Boogerfart · #2 03-12-2018, 09:17 AM

I've never loaded 40-82 but it sounds like it's just too low pressure for consistent ignition. I use 25gr. Of H4198 in my 45-70 with excellent accuracy but it's behind a 405gr cast bullet with a standard LR primer.
Depending on the rifle in question a slightly larger charge may clear things up, if you're worried about pressure try the magnum primer.
Do you point the rifle up after chambering a round? I'm not sure if powder positioning would have a effect since that's a small charge in a long case.

Dick284 · #3 03-12-2018, 09:19 AM

Try some IMR4227, or some Trail Boss.

colt45 · #4 03-12-2018, 10:33 AM

If you could find a copy of this book it has some good info on loading old lever actions,
Shooting lever guns of the old west
by Mike venturio
It has 4 pages of info on loads for that caliber in the book

colroggal · #5 03-12-2018, 10:52 AM

Some people use dacron or grits as a filler. For light 45-70 loads I've used cigarette papers folded over the end of a dowel and stuffed into the case. Holds the powder against the primer and the paper doesn't set fire to the grass.

I've also heard of using felt cushion wads to take up space in the case like traditional shot shell reloads.

Colin

Dean2 · #6 03-12-2018, 11:41 AM

You are shooting cast bullets that are too light for this cartridge. 38-55 uses a 250-285 grain bullet, with yours you should be shooting at least 300 grain all the way to 350 grain. I know the original loads were 260 grain lead but this was to gain velocity, and the heavier bullets performed better. If you are going to stay with the 260 grain bullet then you need quite a bit more powder as what you are shooting now is too low pressure to even seal the chamber. My bet is your cases have a lot of powder residue on the necks.

So a couple of other things that will help. Make sure you have a good crimp on the bullet, this ensures better, more even ignition, definitely run magnum primers. Switch to Varget or 4007, 4895. It will take almost 50% more Varget/4007 to get to the same Vel and thus will fill the case much better. If you keep using 4198, 23 grains is too light a load, particularly with the light bullet, and assuming you are using an older Lever gun you want to go up in powder but carefully. In that cartridge 4198 is only going to fill about 1/3 of the case so this is a place were some filler (cornmeal, cream of wheat) or an over powder wad will definitely help.

Trail Boss, in this relatively straight wall will hit max pressure of 25,000 CUP but at only about 900 FPS so you are better off with the Varget, 4007, 4895 options.

One other thing, the original Smokeless Win loads were 260 0grain at 1450 FPS. Use a Chronograph when developing your loads. When you get to 1350 fps start going up .1 grain at a time till you find the good accuracy, do not exceed 1450 FPS.

Bigmountainrider · #7 03-12-2018, 01:16 PM

Dean2,
One of the struggles I face, is that not even Winchester can tell me if this was a black powder or smokeless gun as it was built in those transition years. I am afraid to over pressure it. Thoughts on a high volume slow burning powder to fill the case and keep pressures down? Or do you think cornmeal filler and a low volume powder is a better option?

Bigmountainrider · #8 03-12-2018, 01:17 PM

I will try magnum primers.

Xbolt7mm · #9 03-12-2018, 01:31 PM

Ive never done this but will try it on a 45-70. Get a side off of a cardboard milk jug and use a spent shell that has not been resized yet and use it and a hammer to bunch out a bunch of “wads”. Load your powder and push in one of those to hold the powder against the primer. Sounds like it may work to me.

32-40win · #10 03-12-2018, 01:57 PM

May well be worth e-mailing Western Powders and seeing if they have data for it with AA5744. That powder was made for low pressure rounds that were BP designs originally. I see some posts around indicating some people have used it in 40-82wcf, and it is quite possible Western has info on it. Cost you nothing to find out, and if they have it, they'll send it to you.

https://www.westernpowders.com/index...mation/contact

colt45 · #11 03-12-2018, 02:03 PM

Here's a pic of one page out of the book,
Might need to slug your bore to get an idea of how big a bullet you need, to get better accuracy

Flieguy · #12 03-12-2018, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284

Try some IMR4227, or some Trail Boss.

^^ start with 70% case capacity of trail boss and work up from there. Won't yield hot loads but it should yield consistent accuracy as long as the rifle is capable

Hillbilly 12 · #13 03-12-2018, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmountainrider

I'm Re-loading 40-82, Using IMR4198 and 260gr cast lead projectiles. I've tried loads from 23.5gr-26.0gr with little consistency at 50 yards. I have been shooting through a fenced gateway and I can hear powder hitting the fence and see in-burnt powder on the snow. I suspect the inconsistency comes from the incomplete powder burn. Should I use fill to top the case up? Or should I use magnum primers? Is there something I have missed? Any thoughts would be great.

Where did you find brass and dies?

ken1989 · #14 03-12-2018, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hillbilly 12

Where did you find brass and dies?

Brass is easily made from 45-90 brass.

Dean2 · #15 03-12-2018, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieguy

^^ start with 70% case capacity of trail boss and work up from there. Won't yield hot loads but it should yield consistent accuracy as long as the rifle is capable

Do NOT do that with straight wall low pressure cases. Trail boss can easily develop more than 25000 cup in these cases. You are not dealing with a cartridge capable of 60000 psi.

4759 and 5744 are good options but almost impossible to find.

To the op, you can tell if it was a bp or smokeless by the markings on the barrel. Many of the old bp ones were revarreled to smokeless steel barrels over the years.

I will send you more info when i get to a full size key board.

fps plus · #16 03-12-2018, 08:19 PM

Trail Boss is your friend

wolf308 · #17 03-12-2018, 10:43 PM

I'm too tired to do much research , but look into and then maybe try accurate arms 5744 powder ...... what I use in the 45-120 sharps with highly accurate results ...... little powder in a long tube laying on the bottom of the case .....

That's about all I can suggest .... I load for 2 - 45-120s actually and had no probs getting powder from " the bullet barn " ..... i don't have the contact info on hand. Google should though

Never even heard of a 40-82 ......

hunter64 · #18 03-13-2018, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colt45

Here's a pic of one page out of the book,
Might need to slug your bore to get an idea of how big a bullet you need, to get better accuracy

That is a good book, but the info he basically took his articles from Handloader Magazine and made it into a book. I have all the magazines from day 1 and 40-82 is referenced in a few good articles. 5744 powder is referenced a lot, as well as lots of powders with fillers. Drop me a line and we can discuss.

Bigmountainrider · #19 03-13-2018, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hillbilly 12

Where did you find brass and dies?

The Dies I had sent from RustyWood, I'm sure he got them from the US. The brass is mostly fire formed 45-70 with a few being the original head stamp.

Bigmountainrider · #20 03-13-2018, 08:12 AM

Let me also add, that I am not looking to get the most out of this rifle or cartridge. I would be happy with 14" accuracy at 100 yards at 900fps. There is just no point in having a gun that doesn't shoot.

Pioneer2 · #21 03-13-2018, 08:36 AM

A Win 1886 or 1885? Ron Smith could do a re-bore to 45-70 if you don't care about collectability.Or simply sell it and get what you want?

catnthehat · #22 03-13-2018, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmountainrider

Dean2,
One of the struggles I face, is that not even Winchester can tell me if this was a black powder or smokeless gun as it was built in those transition years. I am afraid to over pressure it. Thoughts on a high volume slow burning powder to fill the case and keep pressures down? Or do you think cornmeal filler and a low volume powder is a better option?

According to the 12th edition of Cartridges of the World the 40-82 was originally loaded with black powder introduced in 1885 then loaded with smokeless up until 1935
They show a 4198 load of 28 grains at 1425FPS for a 260 grain bullet from the Lyman book.
The factory load they show runs at 1490FPS.
Cat

Bigmountainrider · #23 03-13-2018, 09:18 AM

Pioneer2,
Ron Smith has a reputation of great work, but I'm not willing to change caliber. I'm sure I can make this thing shoot.

Cat, Ken,
There are no markings on the barrel to suggest BP, or Smokeless. The gun was made in 1905 if I remember correctly. At the same time the powders were changing. Cat have you ever tried wadding a rifle cartridge?

catnthehat · #24 03-13-2018, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmountainrider

Pioneer2,
Ron Smith has a reputation of great work, but I'm not willing to change caliber. I'm sure I can make this thing shoot.

Cat, Ken,
There are no markings on the barrel to suggest BP, or Smokeless. The gun was made in 1905 if I remember correctly. At the same time the powders were changing. Cat have you ever tried wadding a rifle cartridge?

I use both Dacron and cream of wheat in my vintage cartridges like the 38-55 ,577 Snider and the 8.15X46r.

Cat

silver · #25 03-13-2018, 10:16 AM

Years ago I used to shoot with some guys, they used black powder in their cartridges. I wanted to use smokeless in mine and not black powder. So that I wouldn't have a velocity advantage on them, I used SR 4759 and a dacron wad. That powder has been discontinued but I think there are other powders that are suitable.

Xbolt7mm · #26 03-13-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Ive never done this but will try it on a 45-70. Get a side off of a cardboard milk jug and use a spent shell that has not been resized yet and use it and a hammer to bunch out a bunch of “wads”. Load your powder and push in one of those to hold the powder against the primer. Sounds like it may work to me.

After some research, and after reading Cats response, the cardboard “wads” are a very bad idea. Creates a air gap between the powder and the boolit which can cause “ringing” and possible gun damage in extreme cases. Dacron it is for me,,,thx Cat

32-40win · #27 03-13-2018, 03:02 PM

I can think of two places in Calgary that very probably have AA5744, CSC and likely Proline. I know I saw AA5744 in CSC a couple of wks ago. Proline had it before as well.

ken1989 · #28 03-13-2018, 06:34 PM

I do not recommend the use wads to hold the powder next to the primer. There are numerous articles that suggest the use of wads leads to ringed barrels and damaged chambers. Early 1886s did not have proof marks (WP in circle), around 1905 proof marks began to appear on Win 1886 barrels and actions.

Bigmountainrider · #29 03-14-2018, 10:29 AM

This is great guys, lots of great info. I really appreciate all the advice. I'm going to switch to magnum primers and try cream of wheat in a few rounds and see what happens.

BMR

Dean2 · #30 03-14-2018, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmountainrider

Pioneer2,
Ron Smith has a reputation of great work, but I'm not willing to change caliber. I'm sure I can make this thing shoot.

Cat, Ken,
There are no markings on the barrel to suggest BP, or Smokeless. The gun was made in 1905 if I remember correctly. At the same time the powders were changing. Cat have you ever tried wadding a rifle cartridge?

Made in 1905 and NOT marked "Nickel Steel" or "Special for Smokeless" or something along those lines then 99.9% it is the softer BP barrel. Still good for 25,000 CUP, just not nearly as wear resistant as the nickle steel barrels are. Smokeless burns hotter and will erode the throat sooner than BP. Lead vs jacketed won't make any appreciable dif in the wear as the powder erosion will create an issue long before wear by the bullets do. In BP guns, wear from BP was non-existent do to the low relative burn temps, and bore wear from the number of bullets fired was the primary wear cause.