Poll, allow .223” diam. bullets for big game?

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by chuck

Plain and simply, people don’t shoot nearly as much as they should. They haven’t a clue and continually argue with those that do. Period. That is the truth.

Plain and simply, the .223 is not a wise choice for hunting big game animals. These people that continually argue it is haven't a clue. Period. That is the truth....IMO

You forgot to add your "IMO" chuck. laughing.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

That’s pretty simple
6mm/ 243

Ohhhh, all of a sudden a 243 is good for not so perfect shot angles????

Um, you had better go back and read what you wrote on the 6.5 thread. According to you it's not adequate for the not so perfect shots.

TI, a .240 is adequate because someone told you it is, certainly not because you know any better.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Ohhhh, all of a sudden a 243 is good for not so perfect shot angles????

Um, you had better go back and read what you wrote on the 6.5 thread. According to you it's not adequate for the not so perfect shots.

TI, a .240 is adequate because someone told you it is, certainly not because you know any better.

Real world experience Kurt. And based on experience tells me .240 would be a good start to minimum (seeing as how not many .23 around). Personally I use larger calibers, but each to their own and what they can handle

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Real world experience Kurt. And based on experience tells me .240 would be a good start to minimum (seeing as how not many .23 around). Personally I use larger calibers, but each to their own and what they can handle

How much real world experience do you have hunting big game with a 223?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

That’s how silly these threads become. You’re not wrong, but neither are the guys shooting .243’s. As you say, quality bullet in each then they both work, well let’s also put a quality nut behind the wheel then too ok. Cartridge discussions seem to always derail to shooter discussions...be a lot simpler if we could leave the shooter out. Some of the deadliest old timers I know shoot the 6mm stuff. Also know some deadly mofos who magnum all the way. Both are right, quality shooters using quality cartridges and bullets, novel idea right?

So remove all that and just look at cartridges or maybe bullets first, then what cartridge will drive it to speeds you like. It’s simple formula. When comparing bullets then s.d and construction are the big factors, not diam. and weight even though more of each works fine too...saying the opposite isn’t effective will not fly, just won’t.

For the sub 300 yard guys/gals that can place em more often than not then it’s a whole new world out there with effectiveness not many can envision.

I can agree with you on a couple of points ..1) for the largest majority it's a sub 300 yd arena and (2) most can place a bullet pretty well where they choose at those distances

I also see that we have shifted to a legal .243 diameter minimum so i take it the .223 is out and the barrel stretching ranges went out with it. All good.

However,I still don't see where you have recognized the importance of KE , bullet cross section area or momentum when discussing terminal performance.Omitting them sure makes it easier to validate your theories but without that recognition this thread could go on for centuries without any resolution.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

How much real world experience do you have hunting big game with a 223?

I have enough real world experience to NOT hunt big game with a .223

So answer me this kurt. I have a nice little cz .17 hmr. It is a tack driver. I know it will cleanly take a whitetail at 100 yds. So why shouldn't I be able to?
A .22 mag is extremely effective on whitetails. Why not one of them?
Where's the line?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Don, that’s a good way to look at it in your questions of seeing a magnum as simply being able to go further and do the same thing.

With today’s bullets, the cartridges around then, can blur the lines of all that and increase the versatility.

A 300 win mag might double the distance of a 308 win for example. But understanding the numbers of penetration and impact velocities you can see what these new bullets and cartridges can do compared to the old standards we know. When the bc and sd goes up, and bullet construction is such that you don’t need to compensate coming apart with weight...well...game changing stuff.

If you look at the max distance of a 308, in 165 gr at 2700 FPS launch and you say it’s good to 400 yards in your eyes...then you’ll see what it’s s.d. And impact velocity is. That’s all magnums do beyond dead imo, is just extend the distance they can do dead. You can take a new cartridge designed around new bullets and do so much more, penetrate deeper due to s.d. and so much further because impact velocity was retained via b.c.. but only way to compare is get down to the common denominators that show this.

All larger capacity cases do is send more bullet weight, with the same design and construction, downrange at similar or greater velocities. That's pretty much a gimme when it comes to terminal performance. How can you change that ?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I have enough real world experience to NOT hunt big game with a .223

So answer me this kurt. I have a nice little cz .17 hmr. It is a tack driver. I know it will cleanly take a whitetail at 100 yds. So why shouldn't I be able to?
A .22 mag is extremely effective on whitetails. Why not one of them?
Where's the line?

You're the one who claims to know it all, not me. I back up my claims with actual real life experiences. People who have actually hunted big game with a 223 have backed their claims with real life expiriences, you're the one telling them they are wrong. You're the one who is dictatating a .240cal should be the minimum allowed based on your vast lack of experience using a 223, and possibly the .240 cal.

As for your 17, I don't know, I have no experience with them on a gopher let alone a deer and I have heard no first hand accounts from anyone who has. If I did then I'd give you my opinion.

You got your manties in a bunch because what? I think a 223 can effectively kill deer? Don't you dare look it up on YouTube, you might have a meltdown. And before you go off saying how I think a 223 is a great big game cartridge you better go back on this thread and read what I think about it.


All the same guys whining about the 6.5 Creedmoor not being adequate for big game on the 6.5 thread are now proclaiming the 243 is...... LOL, I guess it all depends on what cartridge the topic is about. Maybe Stinky should have purposed should a 17 be legal for big game and all you guys would be saying how good a 223 is?

[Don_Parsons]

Your in luck SC, maybe it's good to start some where simple as we turn kinetic energy into kinetic- joules

I seen this write up years ago, it is kind of in line with what's going on, but I'm sure there is room on this thread to add collective ideas instead of the other forms of unknowns.

http://wredlich.com/ny/2013/01/proje...topping-power/

The thread is about 223 diameter, purhaps folks can expand on this at ones own choosing.

If it's not a Intresting read, then please pass up on it.

The clip at the bottom address the bullet construction, idea of 50/50.

Getting trajectory past the wrapper is one thing, then hope it does its job behind the scenes.

Here's hoping we hear that nice Wack sound. Ha

[KodiakHntr]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I have enough real world experience to NOT hunt big game with a .223

So answer me this kurt. I have a nice little cz .17 hmr. It is a tack driver. I know it will cleanly take a whitetail at 100 yds. So why shouldn't I be able to?
A .22 mag is extremely effective on whitetails. Why not one of them?
Where's the line?

I have to admit, I've been reading this thread since it started, and some of you are really grasping at straws here *cough cough MountainTi cough*...

Are you seriously comparing a 20 gr varmint bullet (that means highly frangible - or to put it simply, they come apart easily....) at 2375fps muzzle velocity with 45-80 gr dedicated big game bullets at 2800-4000 fps that may retain 100% of its intitial mass? That's pretty silly, don't you think?



As to the rest of the nay sayers (for whatever their reasons may be) here in BC I could have legally hunted on my last grizzly draw with a 17 Hornet had I felt so inclined. I chose something different however, and it was wonderfully effective.

In Montana, there is no minimum for big game (as far as I'm aware of at this time at any rate) and while there are a couple of pictures floating around out there of some pretty big bull elk killed with 22 rimfires, not many people set out with a 10/22 hoping to bag an elk. There have however, been a JAG of big bulls killed with 22 CF's.
That said, not many people are going to run out to buy a 223 or a 22-250 or build a 224 TTH as their primary big game rifle.
And the folks that do choose to set up a kid or a spouse or themselves with a 22 CF are likely to choose an appropriate bullet, and an appropriate shot angle, and an appropriate distance. All the hand-wringing and wailing about people choosing gopher bullets on purpose for deer is likely for nothing. Why not worry about the bigger issues that impact hunters, like loss of opportunity, or hunts closing down?

We've always been able to hunt with any CF's in BC. It hasn't been an issue here. I promise.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by KodiakHntr

I have to admit, I've been reading this thread since it started, and some of you are really grasping at straws here *cough cough MountainTi cough*...

Are you seriously comparing a 20 gr varmint bullet (that means highly frangible - or to put it simply, they come apart easily....) at 2375fps muzzle velocity with 45-80 gr dedicated big game bullets at 2800-4000 fps that may retain 100% of its intitial mass? That's pretty silly, don't you think?



As to the rest of the nay sayers (for whatever their reasons may be) here in BC I could have legally hunted on my last grizzly draw with a 17 Hornet had I felt so inclined. I chose something different however, and it was wonderfully effective.

In Montana, there is no minimum for big game (as far as I'm aware of at this time at any rate) and while there are a couple of pictures floating around out there of some pretty big bull elk killed with 22 rimfires, not many people set out with a 10/22 hoping to bag an elk. There have however, been a JAG of big bulls killed with 22 CF's.
That said, not many people are going to run out to buy a 223 or a 22-250 or build a 224 TTH as their primary big game rifle.
And the folks that do choose to set up a kid or a spouse or themselves with a 22 CF are likely to choose an appropriate bullet, and an appropriate shot angle, and an appropriate distance. All the hand-wringing and wailing about people choosing gopher bullets on purpose for deer is likely for nothing. Why not worry about the bigger issues that impact hunters, like loss of opportunity, or hunts closing down?

We've always been able to hunt with any CF's in BC. It hasn't been an issue here. I promise.

Thank you for posting.

Another hunter with actual experience where a 223 is legal and saying exactly what I've been saying. Just because it's legal doesn't mean everyone is going to run out and buy one, and they don't seem to have a problem with wounded animals running all over the country side.

Slavee, marky, m-ti, xbolt, and Don, you all seem to think you're experts on hunting with a 223 and the guys who actually hunt with them are clueless......



And that about sums up this thread.

[brendan's dad]

For me it was a no for 2 reasons.

1. I believe that the 6mm and 243 provide an excellent rifle for both women and youth especially with reduced recoil ammunition.

and

2. Where does it end? If a manufacturer produced a .204 caliber bullet with enough weight and expansion abilities to match the .223, will we then allow .204. Why not the .17 then?

I think the minimum is currently at a good level and there is no need to change it. Still plenty of opportunity to hunt with a .223; coyotes, badgers, rabbits, and gophers for maximum effect.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

You're the one who claims to know it all, not me. I back up my claims with actual real life experiences. People who have actually hunted big game with a 223 have backed their claims with real life expiriences, you're the one telling them they are wrong. You're the one who is dictatating a .240cal should be the minimum allowed based on your vast lack of experience using a 223, and possibly the .240 cal.

As for your 17, I don't know, I have no experience with them on a gopher let alone a deer and I have heard no first hand accounts from anyone who has. If I did then I'd give you my opinion.

You got your manties in a bunch because what? I think a 223 can effectively kill deer? Don't you dare look it up on YouTube, you might have a meltdown. And before you go off saying how I think a 223 is a great big game cartridge you better go back on this thread and read what I think about it.


All the same guys whining about the 6.5 Creedmoor not being adequate for big game on the 6.5 thread are now proclaiming the 243 is...... LOL, I guess it all depends on what cartridge the topic is about. Maybe Stinky should have purposed should a 17 be legal for big game and all you guys would be saying how good a 223 is?

From a legal standpoint, 6mm has been the standard here forever
Would I use one? Never in a million years
There’s better choices
Same thing with a creedmoor, why would I use one if there’s other calibers that are better? I get it, you don’t like recoil. It bothers you. I get that. I have agreed with you and think they are good for practicing and for the wives/daughters/ girlfriends. The recoil sensitive people. But when it comes down to crunch time I will always prefer a little more performance. That’s just me.

I understand why you went with the creedmoor with your nula.
Those things are crazy light! Having a larger caliber wouldn’t be fun to shoot nor would it probably be very accurate (boot ya like a mofo)

I just don’t know why your proclaiming that the creedmoors, Grendel’s and 22cf’s are unquestionably all around big game killing machines. I know you think your pretty good at everything. So why do you think some newbie can shoot as well as you can? Or make sounds decisions and shot selections like you do? The problem is that they won’t. They will go on this site and see that guys like you chuck and sc can do it. So they can do it to.

I know I’m not going to change your mind haha

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

For me it was a no for 2 reasons.

1. I believe that the 6mm and 243 provide an excellent rifle for both women and youth especially with reduced recoil ammunition.

and

2. Where does it end? If a manufacturer produced a .204 caliber bullet with enough weight and expansion abilities to match the .223, will we then allow .204. Why not the .17 then?

I think the minimum is currently at a good level and there is no need to change it. Still plenty of opportunity to hunt with a .223; coyotes, badgers, rabbits, and gophers for maximum effect.

That about sums up the .223 debate for me as well.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

From a legal standpoint, 6mm has been the standard here forever
Would I use one? Never in a million years
There’s better choices
Same thing with a creedmoor, why would I use one if there’s other calibers that are better? I get it, you don’t like recoil. It bothers you. I get that. I have agreed with you and think they are good for practicing and for the wives/daughters/ girlfriends. The recoil sensitive people. But when it comes down to crunch time I will always prefer a little more performance. That’s just me.

I understand why you went with the creedmoor with your nula.
Those things are crazy light! Having a larger caliber wouldn’t be fun to shoot nor would it probably be very accurate (boot ya like a mofo)

I just don’t know why your proclaiming that the creedmoors, Grendel’s and 22cf’s are unquestionably all around big game killing machines. I know you think your pretty good at everything. So why do you think some newbie can shoot as well as you can? Or make sounds decisions and shot selections like you do? The problem is that they won’t. They will go on this site and see that guys like you chuck and sc can do it. So they can do it to.

I know I’m not going to change your mind haha

The 223 is adequate from a legal stand point if you go north, south, east, or west of the Alberta border so you're wrong on that account.

I stated in every thread that a Grendel and a 223 would never be my first choice in a big game rifle, so you're wrong there too.

I have a 280 in a Nula and they don't have any recoil to speak of, and I've owned magnums in a Sako finnlight that, with a limb saver recoil pad, has a very tame recoil for a magnum, I hate to burst your man bubble but you're not a big man for shooting a magnum, my son had no problem shooting my finnlight 300wsm when he was 11.

Your wife daughter girlfriend comment is cute, but if you go back to my original thread on my choice to get a Nula in 6.5 Creedmoor you'll see it's because I wanted the original ultralight rifle that Melvin Forbes made his reputation on, short action number 1 contour rifle mountain rifle, before he quits making rifles. Since I already had a 280 which is essentially a 284win I didn't go that route, so after a ton of research I settled on the 6.5 Creedmoor, and there's nothing more to it than that. I know for a fact it will do the job I have in mind for it and if you have a problem with that it sounds like an iss-you not an iss-me.

As far as your fear of the masses going out and buying a 223 as their designated big game rifle and taking 500yd shots, put the tin foil hat away and actually listen to the guys who are speaking from experience living and hunting where it's legal.

[Don_Parsons]

Sorry you read into my post the wrong way Kurt.

I never said that the 223 was not capable of killing Deer or other big game animals.

I voted unknown at first, then did my research of what works for me,,, and me only.

There are better diameter bullets and cartrages for hunting in my world, if other choose different, go gett'em.

My view should not reflect on how the poll votes, nor have any bearing on what folks choose.

I don't need a 223 for Harvesting critters since the iron I have has a proven track record in my hands as well as my freezer

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

From a legal standpoint, 6mm has been the standard here forever
Would I use one? Never in a million years
There’s better choices
Same thing with a creedmoor, why would I use one if there’s other calibers that are better? I get it, you don’t like recoil. It bothers you. I get that. I have agreed with you and think they are good for practicing and for the wives/daughters/ girlfriends. The recoil sensitive people. But when it comes down to crunch time I will always prefer a little more performance. That’s just me.

I understand why you went with the creedmoor with your nula.
Those things are crazy light! Having a larger caliber wouldn’t be fun to shoot nor would it probably be very accurate (boot ya like a mofo)

I just don’t know why your proclaiming that the creedmoors, Grendel’s and 22cf’s are unquestionably all around big game killing machines. I know you think your pretty good at everything. So why do you think some newbie can shoot as well as you can? Or make sounds decisions and shot selections like you do? The problem is that they won’t. They will go on this site and see that guys like you chuck and sc can do it. So they can do it to.

I know I’m not going to change your mind haha

The minimalists don't understand that a bit bigger is always bit better when on the subject of bullet terminal performance. They try to make a bit smaller appear a bit bigger and that doesn't work , regardless of their experience trying to
prove otherwise.
From this thread I see they tailor their choices according to minimum recoil, less powder consumption, lightweight rifle and cheaper ammo.The better marksmanship angles they like to play is a pretty weak card that can best be played outside the BG hunting relm.

Shoot as big a cartridge as you possibly can and go hunting.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

The minimalists don't understand that a bit bigger is always bit better when on the subject of bullet terminal performance. They try to make a bit smaller appear a bit bigger and that doesn't work , regardless of their experience trying to
prove otherwise.
From this thread I see they tailor their choices according to minimum recoil, less powder consumption, lightweight rifle and cheaper ammo.The better marksmanship angles they like to play is a pretty weak card that can best be played outside the BG hunting relm.

Shoot as big a cartridge as you possibly can and go hunting.

You had better be hunting with a 600 nitro express or you're the biggest hypocrite on the planet. From experience I'd bet money you don't own a 600 nitro!

[KodiakHntr]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Shoot as big a cartridge as you possibly can and go hunting.

At what point is "big enough" big enough? What do YOU want to see as far as cartridge performance on an animal?

What do you base your opinion on, as far as what you would like to see a cartridge be able to do?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by KodiakHntr

At what point is "big enough" big enough? What do YOU want to see as far as cartridge performance on an animal?

What do you base your opinion on, as far as what you would like to see a cartridge be able to do?

I hunt BG with a 6.5 x55, 30-06,.338-06 ,.35 whelen and 9.3x62 .That covers about all I need and a bit more. Also have a .20 cal,, a .243 and a 6mm that I don't use on BG because I have better options. I determine what is " big enough" for me and I believe I have more than adequate hunting experience on a variety of game over a number of years to present a qualified opinion on here. That's what this thread is about , isn't it ?

..and you ?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I hunt BG with a 6.5 x55, 30-06,.338-06 ,.35 whelen and 9.3x62 .That covers about all I need and a bit more. Also have a .20 cal,, a .243 and a 6mm that I don't use on BG because I have better options. I determine what is " big enough" for me and I believe I have more than adequate hunting experience on a variety of game over a number of years to present a qualified opinion on here. That's what this thread is about , isn't it ?

..and you ?

How many years before the rest of us can be considered qualified enough to give an opinion?

I think more importantly before you go yammering off on how experienced or qualified you are at giving an opinion on the 223 as a big game caliber, you tell us all about the vast experience you've had actually using one as a big game rifle to prove that the other guys who have stated their expirience using one are wrong and you are actually the authority on the cartridge's capabilities..... based on your extensive experience using the 223cal cartridge.

Maybe just a quick list of all the big game you've taken with the 223, that would be good enough.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

No one cares what you hunt with. We are asking that you return the favour.

Kodiakhuntr isn’t lacking any experience so there is no sense going down that rabbit hole.

I really don't care about your so-called rabbit holes or what you are asking. From what I listed I think he can take the what's and why's from there without too much trouble.

[KodiakHntr]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I hunt BG with a 6.5 x55, 30-06,.338-06 ,.35 whelen and 9.3x62 .That covers about all I need and a bit more. Also have a .20 cal,, a .243 and a 6mm that I don't use on BG because I have better options. I determine what is " big enough" for me and I believe I have more than adequate hunting experience on a variety of game over a number of years to present a qualified opinion on here. That's what this thread is about , isn't it ?

..and you ?

It was a pretty simple, honest question really. What, in your mind, constitutes "big enough"? What do YOU need to see to establish a minimum cartridge efficiency for big game.

Enough bullet mass to get to vitals? Enough velocity to ensure bullet upset? Enough tissue damage delivered to vitals? You must have some sort of baseline performance expectation here to base your opinion on, no? Or is it simply you "think" it isn't enough? Perhaps based on feelings?

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Plain and simply, the .223 is not a wise choice for hunting big game animals. These people that continually argue it is haven't a clue. Period. That is the truth....IMO

Thanks. I've actually done it. It works perfectly fine and you have no experience doing it so step back from calling me clueless.

I'm getting a little tired of the "I think it can't" crowd arguing with the "been there done that" crowd acting like they can ignore fact.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

However,I still don't see where you have recognized the importance of KE , bullet cross section area or momentum when discussing terminal performance.Omitting them sure makes it easier to validate your theories but without that recognition this thread could go on for centuries without any resolution.

I don’t recognize ke, diam. or momentum. Because it doesn’t make a difference. That’s the part you’re struggling with, can’t explain it any further. Stick with what works for you, I’ll do same.✌️

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I don’t recognize ke, diam. or momentum. Because it doesn’t make a difference. That’s the part you’re struggling with, can’t explain it any further. Stick with what works for you, I’ll do same.✌️

According to your idea on how things work, a bow and arrow would be more effective than any normal hunting rifle.... SD is not all that matters. Monometal bullets vs lead soft point also disproves your SD arguement.

[trigger7mm]

I personnally think it is a bad idea to be shooting Alberta big game with anything less than an .243. Placing an ethical shot on an animal is a lot different than having kids shooting at targets. If it is recoil that you’re worried about for smaller shooters, then get your .243, 6mm, whatever, and put a muzzle brake on it. My daughter is a small girl, and has been shooting my 7mm mag. since she was 12 years old. With a muzzle brake it is no problem, and she has taken many big game animals with it. We owe to the animals to kill them as quickly and cleanly as possible. Too much room for error with the smaller caliber. I could kill deer all day long with my .204 or even my .22 mag. Would I go out and do it...not a chance in hell. This topic is a no brainer in my humble opinion.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

No one cares what you hunt with. We are asking that you return the favour.

Kodiakhuntr isn’t lacking any experience so there is no sense going down that rabbit hole.

No one cares what you use either
Just keep it legal in the area you use it
Since you can’t use it here for big game
Go Elsewhere and tell us how it works for you

Big talker Betty crocker

[trigger7mm]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

No one cares what you use either
Just keep it legal in the area you use it
Since you can’t use it here for big game
Go Elsewhere and tell us how it works for you

Big talker Betty crocker

Well put sir.

[Big Lou]

Dare I post? Whatever. Flame me if you care to do so.

I’ve only once seen the results of a .223 projectile on a deer. Distance might have been 125 yards. 3.5 year old buck. One moment he was standing there loud and proud. At the report of the rifle, he vanished. We watched the spot. Not a sound, twitch, leg kick. Walked up and there lay our prize. I have no idea what the projectile design or weight was as it was long before I was paying attention to such things in detail and I wasn’t doing the shooting. Honestly, I was a little more than surprised on how it flattened that buck.

I don’t think there is any arguing that a .223 projectile can in fact be very effective medicine - used within it’s reasonable parameters. Sure, there’s some validity in concern over Tom, Dick, Harry and the like running a Varmint bullet but I feel it’s a slimmer chance of occurring at best. The same opportunity exists with our minimums as is. Isn’t part of this why a lot of us handload? So we can have control over using a projectile that best suits intended use. I love shooting bug holes as much as the next guy but it isn’t the be all and end all. We have the ability to play with and tweak the variables to suit intended use and everything out there has thresholds to operate effectively in. Personally, I love enjoying having those capabilities.

I know I’d be much more comfortable taking that same shot I witnessed with that exact combo than I would have been with my .460 Wby running 500gr solids. Who wouldn’t? It’s a poor choice for the intended use. That deer would most likely have torn out of there on a dead run with two .458 cal holes until it bled out. No arguing dead is dead but I’d much rather flatten my quarry where it stands.

Would a .223 projectile flinging rifle be my first choice? No. I prefer to be looking at more horse power than looking for it.

Would I hesitate to use a .223 projectile flinging rifle with a well suited pill for the task at hand? No. I’ve seen first hand that it’s very capable in the right hands and that deer would have been no more dead than it was had I squeezed the trigger instead.

My kids are close in age to Chuck’s. If it were legal here and when the time came; if either or both of them shot a .223 cal cartridge better than my .243/6mm cal cartridges, I’d much rather have them drawing down with something they are comfortable with. I’d have worked up the load. A suitable projectile and I sure hope I’m right by their sides in that moment. It’d be a situation where they’ve been set up to succeed. Not fail. I believe the bulk of folks who choose to go this route would be of similar mind.

I don’t look down my nose at folks who choose something different to employ than I do. For the record, my go to is currently a 300RUM but on any given day, you may find me running a 6mmAI, 257 Wby, 280 Rem, 300 Wby, 35 Whelen etc depending on the game I’m pursuing. If the .223 offerings were permitted then perhaps a smaller cartridge could be part of that list too. As stated previous, not my first choice but I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that I or someone else could get the job done in a clean and efficient manner.