Poll, allow .223” diam. bullets for big game?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Haha....I'm kinda/sorta watching "Best of The West" as we type,lol(oddly enough,they're in Africa up close n personal with Cape Buffalo this episode?

Anyhow......I vote no for the same idiot factor Honda610 eludes to.
Sure,deer can be and are killed often with the sub-.23s....doesn't make a .223 a "deer rifle",although the relatively newer chamberings like the Valkyrie and Creedmore etc that can handle heavy for caliber bullets are well suited and capable deer loads,again.....too many idiots out there imho that would be chasing deer with Winny white box or wutever other varmint round happens to be on sale at Walmart/Cambodian Tire that day.

Edit:case in point,I just went back to actually read the entire discussion from beginning and right off the bat(post#10) there's a Rambo saying "it would be nice to hunt deer with a T97" ....good Lord.
Ironic how the .223 advocates will yammer on and on about "shot placement ,shot placement,shot placement........then in the next breath they want to hunt with a spray and pray 3-4MOA Chinese bull pup.

Agree with a lot of this. End of day we are left to self train. Can we not already buy $200 sks in 7.62x39 and cases of cheap milsurp? Same thing. Pandora’s box is already open.

We can only control this so much and Kurt has another point at the then end where guys going long because they bought the gear likely wound as many or more than the video gamer sks crowd. You can not eliminate this, there’s argument that a .223 rem running a decent bullet would be far better than a 7.62x39 as a deer round, I’d likely choose that option if given the two. Why allow one and not the other? Anyway, we as individuals have to learn what works for us. Bullet tech has come far enough now I can see the allowing of these diam. bullets. The cartridge choice is another matter.

[JD848]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Not true at all. I personally witnessed the exact scenario go down. A friend of mine shot a buck with his 338win in the gut and we watched him empty the rest of his rifle at the deer while the deer stood next to a round bale. After about a half hour my phone rang, it was his wife saying he had ran out of bullets!


One shot with a 280 dropped the deer flat in his tracks. Undeniable proof the 280 is a better deer rifle than the 338win...... right?

The problem Kurt was your friend did not know how to shoot,the 280 was fired by you.So he go buck fever and wasn't able to pull the shot off,this happens with any cartridge if the hunter is not capable of controlling his emotions.

There's guy's that can shot a mag real well and some can't,plus there guys that can't shot period with a 6.5 or 7mm so a 223 is not the answer.

The triggerman is the answer to it all with endless hours of practice with total concentration and discipline. So according to this thread all military snipers are useless cause they shoot mags or the secret service that use 300 wins,338 lapua's,308 ,7mm rem.
If the shooter is not capable nothing should be in his hands when shooting at a big game animal,not even a 223 or a 338,a rock maybe even then they may hurt something,they shouldn't hunt .
Some guys don't even know about a proper fit of a stock or then blame it on recoil.My wife can shoot a 7mm rem mag very well,but chooses the 6.5 because it doesn't weight as much.

I brought my wife with me on many hunts before she shot to get her past the buck fever feelings and not let her emotion over ride her skills when killing an animal and do it without any hesitation or thought,just shoulder that rifle and squeeze the trigger.

So the real SD is what is between a guys ears.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by JD848

The problem Kurt was your friend did not know how to shoot,the 280 was fired by you.So he go buck fever and wasn't able to pull the shot off,this happens with any cartridge if the hunter is not capable of controlling his emotions.

There's guy's that can shot a mag real well and some can't,plus there guys that can't shot period with a 6.5 or 7mm so a 223 is not the answer.

The triggerman is the answer to it all with endless hours of practice with total concentration and discipline. So according to this thread all military snipers are useless cause they shoot mags or the secret service that use 300 wins,338 lapua's,308 ,7mm rem.
If the shooter is not capable nothing should be in his hands when shooting at a big game animal,not even a 223 or a 338,a rock maybe even then they may hurt something,they shouldn't hunt .
Some guys don't even know about a proper fit of a stock or then blame it on recoil.My wife can shoot a 7mm rem mag very well,but chooses the 6.5 because it doesn't weight as much.

I brought my wife with me on many hunts before she shot to get her past the buck fever feelings and not let her emotion over ride her skills when killing an animal and do it without any hesitation or thought,just shoulder that rifle and squeeze the trigger.

So the real SD is what is between a guys ears.

JD, I can only speculate as to why my buddy hit the deer so far back, I never asked. The key point is he was using his 338win mag and gut shot the deer. We had spotted the buck on his land and told him to get his butt out there to shoot it. We were watching from the road for what seemed like an eternity wondering why the hell he stopped shooting. He didn't have my number on the cellphone he had on him so he called his wife and told her to call me, lol. Unlike what some people think, a guy shot deer that was hit with a 338 won't just drop dead anyway, but a shot in the right spot will kill them every time.

PS, I never mentioned who actually put the final shot into the deer, it was just my 280rem that did it.
I know you understand all this cartridge talk is just talk, hunters kill animals not cartridges. Anyone who can't understand that ain't much of a hunter!

[Don_Parsons]

None of us will ever know what happened either since no one asked what happened.

It sounds like your buddy failed on this hunt.

He failed to bring enough ammo to harvest the buck, or he should not of been shooting a rifle / cartrage he couldn't handle. How far was he when he took his first shot ?

No disrespect Kurt, but most hunters come prepare for the hunt.

This is why they call it hunting.

Not sure why he didn't ask you guys to go onto point instead of leaving you up on the road. No back up plan in place it sounds like.

Had he brought extra ammo, shooting sticks, would he of had a better chance of harvesting the buck since it was standing by at round bale ?

Just asking since you decided to share this story with us.

All we know is that its the 338 magnum's fault, is it fare to blame the rifle, or the person that is using it ?

Is speculating fare since no one asked what went South ?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Dubious

Funny you mention that... some already are.

https://youtu.be/YffrqFAagWU

One of the vids that popped up after was .22-250 vs 375 h&h on milk jugs full of water. 300 gr vs 53 gr. The 375 did 6 full jugs, the .22-250 did 5. Impressive. Wonder how it would look with a 260 gr vs a 70 or 90 gr?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

None of us will ever know what happened either since no one asked what happened.

It sounds like your buddy failed on this hunt.

He failed to bring enough ammo to harvest the buck, or he should not of been shooting a rifle / cartrage he couldn't handle. How far was he when he took his first shot ?

No disrespect Kurt, but most hunters come prepare for the hunt.

This is why they call it hunting.

Not sure why he didn't ask you guys to go onto point instead of leaving you up on the road. No back up plan in place it sounds like.

Had he brought extra ammo, shooting sticks, would he of had a better chance of harvesting the buck since it was standing by at round bale ?

Just asking since you decided to share this story with us.

All we know is that its the 338 magnum's fault, is it fare to blame the rifle, or the person that is using it ?

Is speculating fare since no one asked what went South ?

We’re chasing tails now. We know it’s win some lose some of the hunter doesn’t do his part regardless of cartridge. We also know that if the hunter does his part, places an adequate for game bullet in the kill zones, then it also doesn’t really matter which cartridge. Whatever cartridge you shoot well will do the trick for our needs here. And there’s a few we don’t allow that will also do that. That’s what this poll is about.

Some people think you’ll win more with poor placement with more horsepower, others aren’t buying it. Bottom line it’s a lottery either way.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Not true at all. I personally witnessed the exact scenario go down. A friend of mine shot a buck with his 338win in the gut and we watched him empty the rest of his rifle at the deer while the deer stood next to a round bale. After about a half hour my phone rang, it was his wife saying he had ran out of bullets!


One shot with a 280 dropped the deer flat in his tracks. Undeniable proof the 280 is a better deer rifle than the 338win...... right?

Kurt, the stuff you write. Wow is all i got, you have absolutely no clue if thats true what he said or not, a shot to the guts implies anything behind the diaphram and could hit a variety of things depending o the angle and the damage done. First off if this story is true,and i doubt that it is, then maybe you could help your friend out with your wisdom instead of mocking all of us. Your 280 is no better than a 270 and less of a cartridge than a 30-06 and certainly no 338 if your man enough to shoot it without flinching, that may be your problem however since your so vocal in a 223 thread, you would have to be fool to think a man that can shoot a magnum is less a shooter than a man who can not. If both hit a perfect shot then it does not matter but if i miss by 6 inches, id rather have a much larger exit hole to follow the blood trail. Maybe others will reply with the 223 using a quality bullet and compare it to a larger round with a crap bullet as usually happens but if both cartridges are using a quality bullet,,,,ill use the bigger one that I can handle any damn day of the week. BTW there is nothing wrong with a 280 but there is also nothing wrong with a 300wm, 7mm rem mag or the 338 if you can shoot them. Please feel free to respond to how stupid I am for disagreeing with your infinite wisdom O wise one

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

None of us will ever know what happened either since no one asked what happened.

It sounds like your buddy failed on this hunt.

He failed to bring enough ammo to harvest the buck, or he should not of been shooting a rifle / cartrage he couldn't handle. How far was he when he took his first shot ?

No disrespect Kurt, but most hunters come prepare for the hunt.

This is why they call it hunting.

Not sure why he didn't ask you guys to go onto point instead of leaving you up on the road. No back up plan in place it sounds like.

Had he brought extra ammo, shooting sticks, would he of had a better chance of harvesting the buck since it was standing by at round bale ?

Just asking since you decided to share this story with us.

All we know is that its the 338 magnum's fault, is it fare to blame the rifle, or the person that is using it ?

Is speculating fare since no one asked what went South ?

Don, you just don't get it no matter how many times I spell it out. I don't know how many times I have to say it's not the car it's the driver, it's not the paint brush it's the artist, it's not the hammer it's the carpenter, it's not the ball it's the pitcher, it's not the ink it's the message....... and for the last time, it's not the cartridge it's where you put it!

I get on these threads because it seems a lot of people think their gun kills the animal because it's worked every time they've pulled the trigger. Well guess what? ITS NOT THE GUN ITS THE HUNTER.

Some guy makes a bad shot with a 30-06 then blames the gun and buys a 338 thinking he's solved the problem...... news flash, the gun wasn't the problem but if shooting a magnum gives him a warm fuzzy feeling inside then great, at least he's more confident now. I've seen a 338 not kill a deer, should he get himself a 50cal?

Woulda, coulda, shoulda don't mean squat after it's said and done and buying a bigger cartridge won't fix it either. Buck fever, loose scope mount, flinch, miscalculated range, wind drift, no cartridge is immune to any of these conditions and I'll bet they are all responsible for more wounded game than the size of the dam bullet that hit them.

Are you starting to get it yet?????

I'm bored, I play devils advocate and use my experiences as examples in flawed thinking, it hurts peoples feelings, so I'm sorry..... for absolutely nothing I say. You think a big gun will help with a bad shot, I know it won't, at least it'll boost some confidence I suppose.

Now, as far as legalizing a 223cal projectile goes....... whatever, I doubt it would be the first choice for many hunters at all, it's not like current hunters are going to lock up the guns they've been using and go out and buy a 223 for this coming season. Maybe a father buys it for his son or daughter to use for the first few years of deer season, and there's a dam good chance dad will be with them to say "don't shoot, too far".

Common sense has to be used even when speculating what may or may not happen, I don't think it will be the end of hunting as we know it if it ever does get legalized.

[Stinky Coyote]

That’s how silly these threads become. You’re not wrong, but neither are the guys shooting .243’s. As you say, quality bullet in each then they both work, well let’s also put a quality nut behind the wheel then too ok. Cartridge discussions seem to always derail to shooter discussions...be a lot simpler if we could leave the shooter out. Some of the deadliest old timers I know shoot the 6mm stuff. Also know some deadly mofos who magnum all the way. Both are right, quality shooters using quality cartridges and bullets, novel idea right?

So remove all that and just look at cartridges or maybe bullets first, then what cartridge will drive it to speeds you like. It’s simple formula. When comparing bullets then s.d and construction are the big factors, not diam. and weight even though more of each works fine too...saying the opposite isn’t effective will not fly, just won’t.

For the sub 300 yard guys/gals that can place em more often than not then it’s a whole new world out there with effectiveness not many can envision.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Don, you just don't get it no matter how many times I spell it out. I don't know how many times I have to say it's not the car it's the driver, it's not the paint brush it's the artist, it's not the hammer it's the carpenter, it's not the ball it's the pitcher, it's not the ink it's the message....... and for the last time, it's not the cartridge it's where you put it!

I get on these threads because it seems a lot of people think their gun kills the animal because it's worked every time they've pulled the trigger. Well guess what? ITS NOT THE GUN ITS THE HUNTER.

Some guy makes a bad shot with a 30-06 then blames the gun and buys a 338 thinking he's solved the problem...... news flash, the gun wasn't the problem but if shooting a magnum gives him a warm fuzzy feeling inside then great, at least he's more confident now. I've seen a 338 not kill a deer, should he get himself a 50cal?

Quite a profound thinker, Kurt guy. All those new cliches are real eye openers.
BTW .. who puts a cartridge in a Deer ?

Woulda, coulda, shoulda don't mean squat after it's said and done and buying a bigger cartridge won't fix it either. Buck fever, loose scope mount, flinch, miscalculated range, wind drift, no cartridge is immune to any of these conditions and I'll bet they are all responsible for more wounded game than the size of the dam bullet that hit them.

Are you starting to get it yet?????

I'm bored, I play devils advocate and use my experiences as examples in flawed thinking, it hurts peoples feelings, so I'm sorry..... for absolutely nothing I say. You think a big gun will help with a bad shot, I know it won't, at least it'll boost some confidence I suppose.

Now, as far as legalizing a 223cal projectile goes....... whatever, I doubt it would be the first choice for many hunters at all, it's not like current hunters are going to lock up the guns they've been using and go out and buy a 223 for this coming season. Maybe a father buys it for his son or daughter to use for the first few years of deer season, and there's a dam good chance dad will be with them to say "don't shoot, too far".

Common sense has to be used even when speculating what may or may not happen, I don't think it will be the end of hunting as we know it if it ever does get legalized.

Your'e quite a profound thinker Kurt. All those new cliches are real eye openers. I'm still trying to figger out how to put a cartridge in a Deer at 200 yds. but I'm sure you have it aced. Any more knowledge to share with the ignorant masses ?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Kurt, the stuff you write. Wow is all i got, you have absolutely no clue if thats true what he said or not, a shot to the guts implies anything behind the diaphram and could hit a variety of things depending o the angle and the damage done. First off if this story is true,and i doubt that it is, then maybe you could help your friend out with your wisdom instead of mocking all of us. Your 280 is no better than a 270 and less of a cartridge than a 30-06 and certainly no 338 if your man enough to shoot it without flinching, that may be your problem however since your so vocal in a 223 thread, you would have to be fool to think a man that can shoot a magnum is less a shooter than a man who can not. If both hit a perfect shot then it does not matter but if i miss by 6 inches, id rather have a much larger exit hole to follow the blood trail. Maybe others will reply with the 223 using a quality bullet and compare it to a larger round with a crap bullet as usually happens but if both cartridges are using a quality bullet,,,,ill use the bigger one that I can handle any damn day of the week. BTW there is nothing wrong with a 280 but there is also nothing wrong with a 300wm, 7mm rem mag or the 338 if you can shoot them. Please feel free to respond to how stupid I am for disagreeing with your infinite wisdom O wise one

I said gut shot, what I meant was shot in the guts, sorry for confusing you. What wisdom would you suggest I pass on to him? "Hey Ron, aim for the lungs instead of the gut" or maybe "make sure you have enough bullets next time to account for the number of times you miss"???

The guy was a grown man, he gut shot a deer and followed up with a few misses, something I'm sure tens of thousands of hunters have done in the past and will continue to do in the future, it happens.

I've read enough of your posts not to worry about whether you believe anything I write, I really could care less what you think. The guys who actually have a clue know what I'm talking about and know I don't care if you shoot a 223 or a 338 lapua, it's the poor saps who think a magnum is a magic killing machine that I like to rattle and get their manties in a bunch. A true hunter will harvest game with whatever gun you put in his hand, he might just have to get a little closer or wait for a better angle, but that's all part of the hunt. I'm a bow hunter, I have patience, it's not like I can pick a bigger arrow so I don't have to wait for the perfect shot. It's not a hindrance or an inconvenience, it's a part of bow hunting. Ill tell you what, if I had a 223 in my hand instead of a bow I would have killed every single animal I've killed with my bow with the 223.

You said there's nothing wrong with a 280, but is there something wrong with a 270? Or a 6.5? Or 257? Or a 243? I'm just wondering where the wrong starts so I know what my limit should be.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Your'e quite a profound thinker Kurt. All those new cliches are real eye openers. I'm still trying to figger out how to put a cartridge in a Deer at 200 yds. but I'm sure you have it aced. Any more knowledge to share with the ignorant masses ?

Slavee, you're awake! Now...... do you know where you are?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

That’s how silly these threads become. You’re not wrong, but neither are the guys shooting .243’s. As you say, quality bullet in each then they both work, well let’s also put a quality nut behind the wheel then too ok. Cartridge discussions seem to always derail to shooter discussions...be a lot simpler if we could leave the shooter out. Some of the deadliest old timers I know shoot the 6mm stuff. Also know some deadly mofos who magnum all the way. Both are right, quality shooters using quality cartridges and bullets, novel idea right?

So remove all that and just look at cartridges or maybe bullets first, then what cartridge will drive it to speeds you like. It’s simple formula. When comparing bullets then s.d and construction are the big factors, not diam. and weight even though more of each works fine too...saying the opposite isn’t effective will not fly, just won’t.

For the sub 300 yard guys/gals that can place em more often than not then it’s a whole new world out there with effectiveness not many can envision.

I would sure like to see your in-depth detailed comparison between a .35 Whelen and a .243 on 700 lbs of living critter at 200 yds. Both using a NP bullet- the .35 is using a 250 gr at 2500 MV .. pick whatever you want for the .243 and give us the damage estimate. Make the shot "quartering away "

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I would sure like to see your in-depth detailed comparison between a .35 Whelen and a .243 on 700 lbs of living critter at 200 yds. Both using a NP bullet- the .35 is using a 250 gr at 2500 MV .. pick whatever you want for the .243 and give us the damage estimate. Make the shot "quartering away "

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfd3XkHDaDA

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I would sure like to see your in-depth detailed comparison between a .35 Whelen and a .243 on 700 lbs of living critter at 200 yds. Both using a NP bullet- the .35 is using a 250 gr at 2500 MV .. pick whatever you want for the .243 and give us the damage estimate. Make the shot "quartering away "

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pA-a9Q7mCcU

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I would sure like to see your in-depth detailed comparison between a .35 Whelen and a .243 on 700 lbs of living critter at 200 yds. Both using a NP bullet- the .35 is using a 250 gr at 2500 MV .. pick whatever you want for the .243 and give us the damage estimate. Make the shot "quartering away "

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0w1c-gf18

[Kurt505]

In all three videos it shows a dead elk, not sure if you can make them deader? Unless of course these are fake videos???

[kujoseto]

This thread has become comedy gold!

I have no idea how people are misinterpreting the statements Kurt505 has made.

He’s simply saying many people claim using a 338 win mag will drop game in their tracks if you don’t hit it where you intended so that’s the reason to buy and use one. He witnessed a hunter use a 338 win mag to shoot a deer in the guts and the deer didn’t drop as quick as many people would expect. Then a shot from a rifle with a smaller caliber bullet in a smaller capacity cartridge ended the deer right there. So his point is that placement of the bullet is key and gut shooting deer isn’t effective regardless of what a person thinks a magnum will do.
Good grief how is that difficult???
People are twisting this so much.

Had the initial shot hit where the final shot did, the story wouldn’t be used to explain that a 338 was ineffective when hitting a deer in the guts.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by kujoseto

This thread has become comedy gold!

I have no idea how people are misinterpreting the statements Kurt505 has made.

He’s simply saying many people claim using a 338 win mag will drop game in their tracks if you don’t hit it where you intended so that’s the reason to buy and use one. He witnessed a hunter use a 338 win mag to shoot a deer in the guts and the deer didn’t drop as quick as many people would expect. Then a shot from a rifle with a smaller caliber bullet in a smaller capacity cartridge ended the deer right there. So his point is that placement of the bullet is key and gut shooting deer isn’t effective regardless of what a person thinks a magnum will do.
Good grief how is that difficult???
People are twisting this so much.

Had the initial shot hit where the final shot did, the story wouldn’t be used to explain that a 338 was ineffective when hitting a deer in the guts.

Welcome to the conversation, your comprehension is refreshing to say the least!

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by kujoseto

This thread has become comedy gold!

I have no idea how people are misinterpreting the statements Kurt505 has made.

He’s simply saying many people claim using a 338 win mag will drop game in their tracks if you don’t hit it where you intended so that’s the reason to buy and use one. He witnessed a hunter use a 338 win mag to shoot a deer in the guts and the deer didn’t drop as quick as many people would expect. Then a shot from a rifle with a smaller caliber bullet in a smaller capacity cartridge ended the deer right there. So his point is that placement of the bullet is key and gut shooting deer isn’t effective regardless of what a person thinks a magnum will do.
Good grief how is that difficult???
People are twisting this so much.

Had the initial shot hit where the final shot did, the story wouldn’t be used to explain that a 338 was ineffective when hitting a deer in the guts.

So the question is, what would the Buck have done had it been shot in the guts with the 280 or any other cartrage ?

So if the 338 is not the magic pill, neither is any other cartrage, pretty sure we get that.

So here's the conundrum:

Magnum cartrages in the "Correct" hands are lethal weapons at greater distances, would this be a true statement then.

It sounds like this Ron fellow, "No disrespect to him" since he is not here to tell his side of the story on why he failed to come to the hunt ill prepared.

This is not a true hunter as all folks should know better than go a-field with out extra ammo, "And" some extra gear that is required before grabbing the gun to step out of the truck. Total fail on Ron's part.

Since we all know that what ever catrage or caliber is capable of killing all kinds of critter, what happens when distance becomes a factor for a shooter with tact driving skills "if" this be the case.

Is this person with all his skills limited to a small bore catrage with limited energy down range, or would it be wize to choose something that will deliver high impact down there.

Most folks on this forum as well as many that aren't know what they prefer to see down range when it comes to hammer time.

The 100% perfect shot does not show up at all times, the critters show up at different angles, distances, poor light conditions, crappy weather, places where it's hard to get that shot.

Experience hunters know one thing, bring enough bullet, powder, and skills to gather thier game "if" it is do-ible.

Shot placement has been around for years, the question is, is there enough bullet at a good speed to get the job done.

All the camp fires across our Americas might be asking this question when the harvest gets underway.

Do I have the cartrage, caliber, skills along with all the extra tack to pull this kill off. If not, what kind of game plan can I/We come up with to better the odds.

Can we close the gap, would it be wize to bunker down there since I know that those bullets will be travelling very fast to that distance.

Everyone knows that a **** poor shot can come from a 22 rimfire on up to the 50 So-Cal with everything in between.

If the impact is 2", 4" or a fraction more off center shot, what cartrage / caliber of firearm would you choose.

223, or larger ?

I highly doubt there will be alot of camp fires burning with the small caliber firearm close by, but then again, I don't know since we only contend to the flames at the fire where we camp.

[58thecat]

The .223 makes my broad heads seem inadequate on big game yet I fill the freezer using 100gr broad heads .....go figure eh!

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I said gut shot, what I meant was shot in the guts, sorry for confusing you. What wisdom would you suggest I pass on to him? "Hey Ron, aim for the lungs instead of the gut" or maybe "make sure you have enough bullets next time to account for the number of times you miss"???

The guy was a grown man, he gut shot a deer and followed up with a few misses, something I'm sure tens of thousands of hunters have done in the past and will continue to do in the future, it happens.

I've read enough of your posts not to worry about whether you believe anything I write, I really could care less what you think. The guys who actually have a clue know what I'm talking about and know I don't care if you shoot a 223 or a 338 lapua, it's the poor saps who think a magnum is a magic killing machine that I like to rattle and get their manties in a bunch. A true hunter will harvest game with whatever gun you put in his hand, he might just have to get a little closer or wait for a better angle, but that's all part of the hunt. I'm a bow hunter, I have patience, it's not like I can pick a bigger arrow so I don't have to wait for the perfect shot. It's not a hindrance or an inconvenience, it's a part of bow hunting. Ill tell you what, if I had a 223 in my hand instead of a bow I would have killed every single animal I've killed with my bow with the 223.

You said there's nothing wrong with a 280, but is there something wrong with a 270? Or a 6.5? Or 257? Or a 243? I'm just wondering where the wrong starts so I know what my limit should be.

I sorry as well for the confusion Kurt, I didn't suggest in my post anything about you offering your friend Ron wisdom,,, I asked why you didn't ask what happened rather than ending up on speculating on the story you shared with out providing details of many things that went wrong.

The all that none of us or even your self that will ever know. Don't forget my friend, you brought up the story with changing facts, then left the rest of us on the hook by speculating on what happened in your view.

One thing that's not working, and I only offer this as a suggestion since no one likes to be told / or should'ed.

If people continually get told or should'ed, they soon plug thier ears because "No One wants to be told."

Purhaps its wizer to throw out suggestions, or ask questions so a better follow up can be delt with.

So how far was this first shot Ron took, was he under cover, did the Buck spot him, if the buck stopped at the round bale.

Did Ron take his time for the follow up shot "if" he knew he hit it the first time, did he have access to a solid rest, if not,,, what other option of getting planted could he of used.

Sure, it's easy to say he got off a bad shot, but why would you or your other friend not ask what happened in stead of speculating on what really happened.

Both of you were watching from the road as you mentioned, seems like the rest of us are not getting the other details attached to the story.

I'm sure other folks think the same thing.

There would be no reason to offer any kind of wisdom when asking a question.

I'm sure Ron like a few others make mistakes, this might be how humans learn, all of you got lucky as the chase came to a successful end,,, but,,, that dosen't explain what really went down in all fairness to your friend, you or others.

A story with blank spaces and nothing to offer.

If you don't wish to fill in some of the blanks, that's ok to since speculation is kind of a way at looking at things.

It sure came across in many of your posts that magnum cartrages are the root of all evil, then turn the table to say that none of this is a factor since its all about the bullet.

Funny how folks forget that a bullet becomes a projectial from the case full of gun powder that forces it to the target. A whole different story in that category I suppose.

Feel free to chime in at your choosing, no big deal if you don't.
At least you and your friend were right there watching the whole thing play out, it would be nice know how far his first shot was from.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

So the question is, what would the Buck have done had it been shot in the guts with the 280 or any other cartrage ?

So if the 338 is not the magic pill, neither is any other cartrage, pretty sure we get that.

So here's the conundrum:

Magnum cartrages in the "Correct" hands are lethal weapons at greater distances, would this be a true statement then.

It sounds like this Ron fellow, "No disrespect to him" since he is not here to tell his side of the story on why he failed to come to the hunt ill prepared.

This is not a true hunter as all folks should know better than go a-field with out extra ammo, "And" some extra gear that is required before grabbing the gun to step out of the truck. Total fail on Ron's part.

Since we all know that what ever catrage or caliber is capable of killing all kinds of critter, what happens when distance becomes a factor for a shooter with tact driving skills "if" this be the case.

Is this person with all his skills limited to a small bore catrage with limited energy down range, or would it be wize to choose something that will deliver high impact down there.

Most folks on this forum as well as many that aren't know what they prefer to see down range when it comes to hammer time.

The 100% perfect shot does not show up at all times, the critters show up at different angles, distances, poor light conditions, crappy weather, places where it's hard to get that shot.

Experience hunters know one thing, bring enough bullet, powder, and skills to gather thier game "if" it is do-ible.

Shot placement has been around for years, the question is, is there enough bullet at a good speed to get the job done.

All the camp fires across our Americas might be asking this question when the harvest gets underway.

Do I have the cartrage, caliber, skills along with all the extra tack to pull this kill off. If not, what kind of game plan can I/We come up with to better the odds.

Can we close the gap, would it be wize to bunker down there since I know that those bullets will be travelling very fast to that distance.

Everyone knows that a **** poor shot can come from a 22 rimfire on up to the 50 So-Cal with everything in between.

If the impact is 2", 4" or a fraction more off center shot, what cartrage / caliber of firearm would you choose.

223, or larger ?

I highly doubt there will be alot of camp fires burning with the small caliber firearm close by, but then again, I don't know since we only contend to the flames at the fire where we camp.

In a nutshell, a bad shot is a bad shot, a hunter will choose both his game and his shot correctly according to circumstance and Ron is a farmer, and no, none of my facts changed, you just misinterpreted things.

Hope we're clear here.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by kujoseto

He’s simply saying many people claim using a 338 win mag will drop game in their tracks if you don’t hit it where you intended so that’s the reason to buy and use one. He witnessed a hunter use a 338 win mag to shoot a deer in the guts and the deer didn’t drop as quick as many people would expect. Then a shot from a rifle with a smaller caliber bullet in a smaller capacity cartridge ended the deer right there. So his point is that placement of the bullet is key and gut shooting deer isn’t effective regardless of what a person thinks a magnum will do.
Good grief how is that difficult???
People are twisting this so much.

Had the initial shot hit where the final shot did, the story wouldn’t be used to explain that a 338 was ineffective when hitting a deer in the guts.

Who exactly is making this claim? In all these threads, I have yet to see it. In fact, I think everyone agrees proper bullet placement is key. Not a single poster has argued that fact. Problem being, unless you're as godlike as kurt, chuckie, and rem, not every shot is gonna be perfect. In a perfect world it would be and we could all use .17 hmr's, but it ain't a perfect world. If I don't make a perfect shot, I know there are a lot of choices a heck of a lot better than a .223. Some real world hunting experience will tell you that.
Like I said, if you can't handle recoil, do something about it, there are better options than advocating the use of a .223.
And contrary to kurts continuous ramblings, shooting a magnum doesn't mean you can't "shoot"
If you get buck fever and can't hit the broad side of a barn with a .338, same thing is gonna happen with a .223


Are we all in agreement that a properly placed .17 hmr projectile will cleanly kill a deer at 50-100 yards? Perhaps that should be the new minimum caliber?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Who exactly is making this claim? In all these threads, I have yet to see it. In fact, I think everyone agrees proper bullet placement is key. Not a single poster has argued that fact. Problem being, unless you're as godlike as kurt, chuckie, and rem, not every shot is gonna be perfect. In a perfect world it would be and we could all use .17 hmr's, but it ain't a perfect world. If I don't make a perfect shot, I know there are a lot of choices a heck of a lot better than a .223. Some real world hunting experience will tell you that.
Like I said, if you can't handle recoil, do something about it, there are better options than advocating the use of a .223.
And contrary to kurts continuous ramblings, shooting a magnum doesn't mean you can't "shoot"
If you get buck fever and can't hit the broad side of a barn with a .338, same thing is gonna happen with a .223


Are we all in agreement that a properly placed .17 hmr projectile will cleanly kill a deer at 50-100 yards? Perhaps that should be the new minimum caliber?

Speaking of godlike, you seem to know it all, what is the minimum sized cartridge we all should be using to take the not so perfect world shots?

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

In a nutshell, a bad shot is a bad shot, a hunter will choose both his game and his shot correctly according to circumstance and Ron is a farmer, and no, none of my facts changed, you just misinterpreted things.

Hope we're clear here.

What ever works my friend, it's your story that you chose to speculate on.

Cheers

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

The .223 makes my broad heads seem inadequate on big game yet I fill the freezer using 100gr broad heads .....go figure eh!

The difference is .223 bullets kinetic energy compared to the total weight of the arrows momentum.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Speaking of godlike, you seem to know it all, what is the minimum sized cartridge we all should be using to take the not so perfect world shots?

That’s pretty simple
6mm/ 243

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

That’s pretty simple
6mm/ 243

But...but I can cover 5 shots with a dime at 100 yds with my .17 hmr. It's cheap to shoot with little recoil so I can blast targets lots and lots so I will be a true marksman. Should be able to cleanly harvest a whitetail at 100 yards with proper bullet placement if I do my job.
Think of the children....

And yes, I agree, .240

[Stinky Coyote]

Don, that’s a good way to look at it in your questions of seeing a magnum as simply being able to go further and do the same thing.

With today’s bullets, the cartridges around then, can blur the lines of all that and increase the versatility.

A 300 win mag might double the distance of a 308 win for example. But understanding the numbers of penetration and impact velocities you can see what these new bullets and cartridges can do compared to the old standards we know. When the bc and sd goes up, and bullet construction is such that you don’t need to compensate coming apart with weight...well...game changing stuff.

If you look at the max distance of a 308, in 165 gr at 2700 FPS launch and you say it’s good to 400 yards in your eyes...then you’ll see what it’s s.d. And impact velocity is. That’s all magnums do beyond dead imo, is just extend the distance they can do dead. You can take a new cartridge designed around new bullets and do so much more, penetrate deeper due to s.d. and so much further because impact velocity was retained via b.c.. but only way to compare is get down to the common denominators that show this.