Poll, allow .223” diam. bullets for big game?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

What you have been trying to say all along is that a large for caliber bullet with the same construction will provide the greatest penetration at a given
terminal velocity. That knowledge is as old as dirt. You did not discover sectional density and I really don't think it's worth much study time. Where lies the fascination ?

It’s not fascination I’m interested in. It’s education. You can make better choices with ‘all’ the data. Less guys/gals/kids flinching with too much gun for a few shots a year because someone said you need that much gun from, and I hate to use the word but, ignorance in many cases, and or, not telling the whole story in many more cases. Tell the whole story.

If we know shot placement is 90+ and cartridge is 10- then...

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Biggest thing I’ve shot with a 223 is a wolf
Shot 3 with a 223
All went down. None were drt. After 30 mins none had expired when I walked up to them
A wolf is typically smaller than a deer
Therefore I don’t believe a 223 is good for game the size of a wolf or larger.
Not rocket science

Grendel Grendel bo bendel😉

Kidding, mostly.

Wolves are kevlar coyotes...or not hit well, pretty straightforward, always is.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by rem338win

I've shot several deer with .22CFs and can speak of seeing quite few more and garner first hand testimony of many many more deer and black bear shot with .222s up to 22-284. All died well within the realm of reason and 2 of mine went less than 5 yds.

Your right, its not rocket science, and your very limited experience is a grain of sand in a desert.

Ya man
Your right I haven’t shot many big game animals with a 223
For one it’s illegal here
Two I think there’s a million better choices
Third my experience with them one smaller game hasn’t led me to want to try on anything bigger

Congrats to you on shooting them with your 22 cal.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Grendel Grendel bo bendel😉

Kidding, mostly.

Wolves are kevlar coyotes...or not hit well, pretty straightforward, always is.

I honestly chalk a lot of it up to bullet type
Had good sd just a bullet that expanded to fast
Either way it knocked them down but didn’t knock them out
Big hole in the ribs
I just like a clean kill
Drt preferred
Think the closest was 50 yards furthest was 250

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Man I could really care less what you think.
I’ve seen more bc animals go down then you’ve had hot lunches
One day you’ll be tall enough to go on the adult rides
Until then keep pumping your own tires

Wow figjam, you're back

For a guy who's seen so many bc animals you seem fairly clueless?


Have you ever seen a North American bc animal? Seems you're stuck on African safari.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

It’s not fascination I’m interested in. It’s education. You can make better choices with ‘all’ the data. Less guys/gals/kids flinching with too much gun for a few shots a year because someone said you need that much gun from, and I hate to use the word but, ignorance in many cases, and or, not telling the whole story in many more cases. Tell the whole story.

If we know shot placement is 90+ and cartridge is 10- then...

Gad Man .. this is the information age. There's literally tons of info out there on about anything one wants to know, including internal,external and terminal ballistics. Its all there, and up to the minute .. Brian Litz and Nathan Foster in particular have a wealth of easily digestible knowledge - along with a host of others in general. Maybe no one really cares enough, or is not interested enough in the subject to persue it... or maybe they already know enough to suit their purpose. In sum, there is certainly enough info available that anyone, so inclined, can gather enough info to separate the biased opinions from the utter BS and make up their own minds. It ain't gonna happen on here.

[marky_mark]

You liked that one too lol
Be careful I got suspended by your buddy for saying that

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

You liked that one too lol
Be careful I got suspended by your buddy for saying that

It was pretty good.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

It was pretty good.

All craziness aside
Like I said before
We should share our data and experiences with whatever we choose this fall
And hopefully give other hunters more info to help them on their adventures

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

All craziness aside
Like I said before
We should share our data and experiences with whatever we choose this fall
And hopefully give other hunters more info to help them on their adventures

I totally agree.

I usually post up pics and in depth stories of my adventures. I've learned a lot on this forum and try to pass on as much as I learn from my experiences.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

It’s not fascination I’m interested in. It’s education. You can make better choices with ‘all’ the data. Less guys/gals/kids flinching with too much gun for a few shots a year because someone said you need that much gun from, and I hate to use the word but, ignorance in many cases, and or, not telling the whole story in many more cases. Tell the whole story.

If we know shot placement is 90+ and cartridge is 10- then...

And I could swear yours truly was whining about character assassination a day ago. LMAO. Funny thing guys wanting your credentials, you're a self-professed expert spent all summer explaining to us how little we know.

Interesting Boddington's name comes up, him & every other professional guide I've ever heard of says to shoot the LARGEST caliber you can comfortably shoot. Those guys aren't out there saying to the consuming public: Come shoot the smallest possible gun you can to feel like a hero. That advice is left to shoot a gong or a target. You've spent all summer justifying it saying guys will stretch the limits, keep it off the live animals.

Some things you just can't avoid. There have been uncountable more game taken in Alberta with the 270,308, 30 06 than there has the big magnums or the 243. Obviously the .223 has taken roughly zero. How can it be that so many game animals were harvested with the larger guns?? With all these flinchers out there?

Something else interesting I've not seen mentioned by the little cal crowd is the advancements in recoil pads. You forgot a new high-tech sd recoil pad will make it so you can handle the .270, heck you might even be able to graduate up to an aught six.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by rem338win

http://www.westernwhitetail.com/22-centerfires-deer/

Ron Spomer is accomplished. Great read.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/...re_22_biggame/

And Boddington condones it too......

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...ight-for-deer/

More credibility for the cause....feel free to ignore science....

I'm personally tired of ignorance on people's parts.

If you think its reasonable for the 25-20, 32-20, 38-55, 44-40, 357s etc... to be legal but somehow your snowflake feelings swelter at the thought of the more than capable .223's and 22-250s being allowed them I don't know what to say. Maybe using practical thought processes and reasonable jusdgement is just not your thing.

Any articles I've read on this topic, including those above, refer to the .223 as a capable Deer/ Antelope cartridge under ideal conditions. No references or recommendation suggests it as a general Big Game cartridge. That is what this topic is all about AFIK. Reasonable enough ?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by roper1

you're a self-professed expert spent all summer explaining to us how little we know

Wrong, but that’s how you took it, sounds like a you issue.

I’ve introduced nothing new, just helped explain things a different way at times, move past misinformation at times, raise the overall collective. Help, not hinder. Lift, not tear down. What are you doing?

[roper1]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Wrong, but that’s how you took it, sounds like a you issue.

I’ve introduced nothing new, just helped explain things a different way at times, move past misinformation at times, raise the overall collective. Help, not hinder. Lift, not tear down. What are you doing?

Riiiiight, your 'ignorance in many cases' is a team-builder for sure. Misinformation or just something you disagree with? Pick a hot-button topic with ethics on live game involved, that right there sure to build consensus.

[Stinky Coyote]

That Ron Spomer article was great, no bull. Quote I’ve been all about trying to raise the collective about is like this;

“Tests have shown that a 53-grain Barnes X from a .22-250 penetrated farther than a traditional 250-grain soft-point from a .338 Winchester Magnum.”

Why? I’m even struggling with that one. .151 s.d. Vs .313...the why will be the difference in velocity. You need a lot more velocity to overcome that weak s.d. And the .22-250 does it clearly.

Interesting stuff

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

That Ron Spomer article was great, no bull. Quote I’ve been all about trying to raise the collective about is like this;

“Tests have shown that a 53-grain Barnes X from a .22-250 penetrated farther than a traditional 250-grain soft-point from a .338 Winchester Magnum.”

Why? I’m even struggling with that one. .151 s.d. Vs .313...the why will be the difference in velocity. You need a lot more velocity to overcome that weak s.d. And the .22-250 does it clearly.

Interesting stuff

You're so freakin hung up on SD and your in-depth understanding of what goes on about eveything, plse explain,in detail, what is so meaningful about that Spomer quote and your response . Lets raise the collective !

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

That Ron Spomer article was great, no bull. Quote I’ve been all about trying to raise the collective about is like this;

“Tests have shown that a 53-grain Barnes X from a .22-250 penetrated farther than a traditional 250-grain soft-point from a .338 Winchester Magnum.”

Why? I’m even struggling with that one. .151 s.d. Vs .313...the why will be the difference in velocity. You need a lot more velocity to overcome that weak s.d. And the .22-250 does it clearly.

Interesting stuff

I think we should all agree that these one-off anomalies are not the norm for testing shot performance. You are absolutely right, a .151 sd should not out penetrate a .313 sd. Your example is an anomaly. Not only that, a special supertough bullet vs a soft point... really? Thats a silly comparison. And furthermore, a higher velocity should make a bullet fragment, not punch through deeper. This example is based on a single type of special bullet that absolutely will not behave like most of the bullets people use. Therefore this example is a one-off odd example and should not be used to describe the expected performance of other 55gr bullets from a 22-250.

This is similar thinking to all this 6.5 creedmoor performance mumbo jumbo. Sure the 6.5mm 143 gr eld-x bullet has a high bc. I see a lot of information that says the eld-x is exploding on impact, very poor weight retention and lacking penetration, very much like berger VLDs. If the special hornady ELD bullet doesnt work for hunting, then what? It is a great target round then, if the rifle even likes the eld that is. Well the rifle had better shoot them well, because if it doesnt, your stuck using a bunch of other bullets that have no where near the bc values everyone is basing the 6.5 creedmoor cartridge performance off of. How about compare standard soft point vs standard soft point, or partition vs partition, or accubond vs accubond. Lets see that comparison. Congrats, you are one belt notch up from a 257 Roberts. These miracle conditions that take place in these stories are not going to be the norm when everyone else gives it a go.

[marky_mark]

Honestly how much penetration do you need on a deer or non dangerous game?
Not a whole heck of a lot when your taking a broadside shot
I’d take the bullet dumping 5000 ft/lb of energy completely in the chest cavity of an animal. Over a Barnes that punching straight though with only 800 ft/lbs
How big of a wound channel is that 338 making compared to the 22 cal?

[300magman]

Originally Posted by bobalong

I agree other hunters are using it in many places already. Same old story just some people who believe that everyone elses skills are as limited as their own.

Bingo

[Don_Parsons]

I wounder what the poll results would look like had it been the 22-250,,, 22-243 or here in North America what we would of called the 22-308.

But it's been said many a times, it has nothing to do with case size and slower bullets perform better.

At least both of these cases can push the A-MAX 70gr bullet close to 3000 + ft-per seconds.

It's said they offer 2600 ft-lbs energy on out to 350 ish yards.

But then again case size is not part of the topic, at least this is what we all read on the other thread as well as this one.

[Stinky Coyote]

Lmao, roper you’re a team builder lol. I’ll be your muse, have atter.✌️

Don I agree, people think this thread is about .223 rem for big game. When this poll is about .224 bullets being allowed for big game, choose your cartridge. Bullet tech is available now to give solid options in the smaller diameters.

Nyksta, just posting interesting findings. Not auguing anything. I wouldn’t choose either example although I certainly have a preference for higher s.d. And moderate velocities over warp speed and low s.d. Which I find too ‘one trick pony’ for me. I consider recoil energy and b.c. quite heavily too as I like efficiency as I call predators lots and love dialing up hung coyotes. So I look for a fair bit of versatility. Both those options wouldn’t fly for my needs/wants.

Just pointing out there’s a lot more to cartridge selection than just getting the old school 270/308/30-06... which is fantastic advice btw and my fav there is the 270 hands down, have never liked any 30 cal I’ve shot or had and have had a few. One 06, couple 308 and couple win mags. Bullet tech today has certainly opened this up big time, lines are blurred, things are far more versatile. No longer is it just choose a standard or a magnum. You can do so much more with your choices now, helping raise the awareness and better ways to compare.

Such personal opinions about it all so it’s not going to make for smoothest of discussions. Most of what we argue or explain works and is correct anyway. I’m not saying any different. Those who say some of this doesn’t work seem to take issue despite all the others doing it and it’s working for them, working for other jurisdictions etc. I’m just helping show the numbers to why these things work, it’s not smoke and mirrors, a bullet is a bullet, impact velocity is impact velocity, bullet construction is bullet construction, accuracy is accuracy. No mystery here, need to remove some myths like ft/lbs is a big factor, or diam. Is a big factor too...mostly to your shoulder sure. There’s some ego involved, chill.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Lmao, roper you’re a team builder lol. I’ll be your muse, have atter.✌️

Don I agree, people think this thread is about .223 rem for big game. When this poll is about .224 bullets being allowed for big game, choose your cartridge. Bullet tech is available now to give solid options in the smaller diameters.

Nyksta, just posting interesting findings. Not auguing anything. I wouldn’t choose either example although I certainly have a preference for higher s.d. And moderate velocities over warp speed and low s.d. Which I find too ‘one trick pony’ for me. I consider recoil energy and b.c. quite heavily too as I like efficiency as I call predators lots and love dialing up hung coyotes. So I look for a fair bit of versatility. Both those options wouldn’t fly for my needs/wants.

Just pointing out there’s a lot more to cartridge selection than just getting the old school 270/308/30-06... which is fantastic advice btw and my fav there is the 270 hands down, have never liked any 30 cal I’ve shot or had and have had a few. One 06, couple 308 and couple win mags. Bullet tech today has certainly opened this up big time, lines are blurred, things are far more versatile. No longer is it just choose a standard or a magnum. You can do so much more with your choices now, helping raise the awareness and better ways to compare.

Such personal opinions about it all so it’s not going to make for smoothest of discussions. Most of what we argue or explain works and is correct anyway. I’m not saying any different. Those who say some of this doesn’t work seem to take issue despite all the others doing it and it’s working for them, working for other jurisdictions etc. I’m just helping show the numbers to why these things work, it’s not smoke and mirrors, a bullet is a bullet, impact velocity is impact velocity, bullet construction is bullet construction, accuracy is accuracy. No mystery here, need to remove some myths like ft/lbs is a big factor, or diam. Is a big factor too...mostly to your shoulder sure. There’s some ego involved, chill.

Cripes man, give it a rest. You are just like a politician, you say sooooo much without actually saying a damn thing. Blah blah blah, blah blah...

Go do some shooting and get away from your Chuck Hawkes articles and your ballistic program, you might actually learn a thing or two.

The icing on the cake is we get all this expert knowledge from a guy who only shoots factory ammo.

[Don_Parsons]

If that's the case SC, what cartrage case would you choose,,, 22 Hornets or 22-6mm of course there are 2 hand fulls of cartrages to choose from.

I find it strange that the case dosen't really make a difference.

A 55gr hornet at 2600 MZ, compared to a 22-6mm 80gr ELD-X @ 3400 ft-per seconds are the same. Seems strange to me that they are equal.

If the 22 caliber shooter was after better SD over a 80gr bullet, they could switch to a 6mm 105gr with better SD in the 261.

The difference in trajectory recoil very little,,, 25 grains = 2 grams ish

A little bit better frontal impact with the 6 that might help with opening up the hole. Ha

Just a thought that is.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

It’s just a poll, good lord

Look what you did, started another campfire debate!

You related to jack O'connor ?

[marky_mark]

http://www.huntfairchase.com/a-shot-too-far/

Not about 23 caliber directly
But more a reflection of ethics

[Don_Parsons]

Not to de-rail this good thread, I'm still wondering why someone wouldn't choose the low recoil 6mm option.

My old reloading book shows 20 cartrages to choose from, add in the Wildcats might add up to 40 +.

From the smallest of small cases with very low recoil to canons that sur-pass the old school 243.

I'm sure someone would know the difference between the 22 to 243/6mm. Over all diameter difference that is.

There was a fellow on the other thread that mentioned he had good success with the 243 85gr bullet.

Last week a older fellow came out to the range to sight in his bargain basement Savage 243.
He shot a nice 1 1/2" group at 100 meters off a wood block with no bag.

Factory trigger and a throw away $35 scope.
The whole package brand new was $350 with box new.

His son and him are going after Deer this year, all he needed is something to just get by at a frugal budget.
The funds he saved will go towards good times hunting all season long.

Old plaid jacket, scuffed up boots, and a old rusty 1977 Ford half ton with bald tires. Ha.

Sorry to all reading this post since I don't not want to side track what's going on.

It seems that a low recoil 6mm to a mid caliber 22 would show the same results in both categories of over all recoil. Close that is.

Yes, the 2 recoil things, powder charge and bullet that factor into the mix.

[Redneck 7]

This kind of reminds me of the whole,

“I’m going after a moose, should I get a 30/06 or 300wm instead of my .270?”

No shot placement and the right bullet out of a gun you’re already used to shooting is what it takes to kill game, not a bigger caliber you haven’t experienced yet.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the .243 but I also have a .223. Both coyote rifles and I have a second .243 for deer. But I’ve heard enough stories of people losing deer from bad shots out of a .243 (and it’s not because of recoil) imagine if they had a .223 and still didn’t work on the fundinentals. Be a lot of wounded deer running around, I think the .223 should stay as a varmint rifle.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

http://www.huntfairchase.com/a-shot-too-far/

Not about 23 caliber directly
But more a reflection of ethics

I totally agree with the article, a lot of guys buy big boomers thinking they can somehow take long range unethical shots because their gun is capable.


I say never mind 23cal, all magnums should be banned to prevent a false sense of marksmanship. A 23cal will help keep them honest

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I totally agree with the article, a lot of guys buy big boomers thinking they can somehow take long range unethical shots because their gun is capable.


I say never mind 23cal, all magnums should be banned to prevent a false sense of marksmanship. A 23cal will help keep them honest

I guess you're one of those, aren't you ?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I guess you're one of those, aren't you ?

Im sure you forget so much these days everything is a guess for you hey?