Poll, allow .223” diam. bullets for big game?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by roper1

His sig line says he's killed more big deer with a bow than you've seen! Look that over Kurt.

Having a few honey holes in the bowzone helps. But pretty sure you’re wrong about the number of big bucks Kurt’s seen. When did this become a measuring contest? You know it’s how you use it right?😉😁

[Stinky Coyote]

Gave this poll two weeks. Pretty even so far. Thanks to all the voters.✌️

[roper1]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Lol, I over looked that part actually, but I did see a couple of the deer he's killed, pretty impressive.

He has spent a lot of time posting the math behind ballistics, and I'm sure anyone who understood what he typed was able to learn something. I know that there is a belief out there that bigger is better when it comes to hunting rifles, but I'm not one of them. I believe accuracy and bullet construction Trump caliber every time (see what I did there? I guess these are Trump facts, lol).

I'm thankful for Stinky's posts, it's really helped bide my time with a broken leg..... bahahaha!

6 deer averaging 167+ with a bow? Plus a bunch more? And a banana fo fana sig line? How old is this guy? How wealthy that he spends 5 hours a day here? They farm deer? I believe other guys have asked for pics in other threads, none forthcoming. I'm glad he helped you spend some time overcoming your wreck, that was a tough one.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by chuck

So far, no one in the no camp can come up with a legitimate reason why not. Other than no one can shoot straight or read an ammo box.

You realize with the 'shoot straight' biased comment you also believe bigger calibers are necessary?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by roper1

6 deer averaging 167+ with a bow? Plus a bunch more? And a banana fo fana sig line? How old is this guy? How wealthy that he spends 5 hours a day here? They farm deer? I believe other guys have asked for pics in other threads, none forthcoming. I'm glad he helped you spend some time overcoming your wreck, that was a tough one.

I'm almost back on my feet! I just pack the crutches "just in case" these days. Maybe this year I'll be able to sit still long enough to have a nice whitetail stumble across my path, ha!

[Stinky Coyote]

Judge away, you’ll be chasing your tail with every assumption.

Is that your aim here, character assassination? So in order to have credibility I need to post pics and definitely can’t have a sense of humour right? If you’ve been here awhile I used to post all my pics. Gave that up long ago...wonder why? You don’t know jack about me, and you’ll get it wrong more than you’ll get it right, keep trying if it makes you happy.

Have a dozen muleys with bow, all p&y, two over 200 etc. That phase is over though. Just scored the last 3, will enter them when I get around to it, more to close the chapter now than any other reason. I’m onto totally different things now as my kids get to start doing all the killing as they are coming of age soon. Phases. My trophy phase is over, actually was never a trophy guy to begin with, just had good access so could be fussy. Otherwise I rarely hold out for the big ones, legal will do, I like to hunt and eat. The muley run was just a product of circumstance. Does this qualify me in any way to discuss ballistics? Who cares what I’ve arrowed.

Gendel grendel bo bendel is for salavee😊

[Don_Parsons]

I'm in the middle grounds on this one.

Yes and no because there are options out there that are better suited for big game hunt,,, or that I grew up around.

How ever, the advancements of bullet construction has not only improved the 22 caliber, it has allowed many other calibers to step it up a notch.

Like Some have said, lots of USA states and parts of Canada allow 223's into the big game category, and there are those saying that there are limits on how far some of the shot placements should take place.
In order to get maximum penetration and bullet expansion.

This is just me, my simple opinion, that means absolutely nothing.

Why not a caliber in 6mm, the hunter can purchase factory reduced loads, or make their own at the reloading bench.
Do all kinds of modifications to the rifle as well if they choose.

Again, not that the 223 can't harvest game with in its limits, or that other caliber options are out there that have pretty good track records.

We've seen it stated on many threads, there are lots of walls and freezers around the world that have reaped the rewards of "all kinds of calibers"

This is proven to be true, more so than game not harvested,,, at least we hope so.

I'll let the gang hash it out as I'll stay with the medium bore calibers based on the proven merits I've seen first hand along with some fantastic harvests by friends and family over the years.

I still think the world is more like a pancake that is kinda shaped like a football with more rounded edges, don't know since I haven't seen it first had.

The world is now full of fake news, no one will ever be able to believe anything from here on in. LOL

Thanks for sharing the thread, kind of a different way at looking at things.

[Stinky Coyote]

Nearly 100 votes, thanks voters! Legitimate poll, ignore the discussions here. I wasn’t looking for a ‘winner’, was looking to see how we feel about those diam. bullets now being allowed considering all the modern choices we now have. Had no idea what the poll would look like, just thought info would be good no matter.

[kayaker]

I don't think most CF .22's lack 'power' my concern is that a lot of ammo is loaded with frangible bullets and a small, soft bullet on a big bodied, pre rut condition 100kg+ buck is less than ideal.

I have used a .223 on Impala with cup and core 55gr factory ammo and seen a few more killed with .222 50gr ammo. Those are 50kg animals, thin coats, very little fat. The bullets worked OK but not ideal IMO.

With a 'big game bullet' they should be fine. I guess large deer are killed with them in other Canadian jurisdictions...

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by Salavee

For the most part I agree, but how did you come to compare a .223 to a recurve?

People like to think the recurves can be under powdered just like the .223 rifles but both in skilled hands are very deadly.

The .223 has been killing Combatants successfully since the 60’s. people and deer would both fall in cpx 2 category. Now before you guys go off the rails about how .223 was designed to fill stretchers and take numbers off the battlefield we’re not shooting full metal jacket bullets on game and even full metal jackets still kill.

The 22 call center fire are very deadly they have been used all over North America and in Africa to take all sorts of game that by some people’s opinions have no business taking. My prediction for this poll is the no vote will win. some people just refuse to accept the lethalitaly of lighter calibers and are stuck on there pet caliber that there dad or grandpa told them was the best. And for the average or newer hunter that’s used to leaning over the hood of there truck shooting deer off the trunk road this wouldn’t be a great pick for them. But for a skilled hunter who enjoys shooting his 223 22-250 or swifty there should be no issues with taking game.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

So far, no one in the no camp can come up with a legitimate reason why not. Other than no one can shoot straight or read an ammo box.

The problem isn’t with the seasoned veteran. The problem is with some newbie going into cabelas, getting a brand new norinco, a crate of Chinese surplus ammo. And going and blasting at deer and moose. Someone who has no idea that they can’t use fmj for big game. That’s the problem!

When your going down highway 2 there isn’t a sign that says hey you can go however fast you want since your a semi professional race car driver. The speed limits are there because there’s too many idiots out Would be pushing the limits of their experience, skill and equipment. Just like with this spewing stats about about these Grendel’s, and 223 for big game.

Just my opinion

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by roper1

6 deer averaging 167+ with a bow? Plus a bunch more? And a banana fo fana sig line? How old is this guy? How wealthy that he spends 5 hours a day here? They farm deer? I believe other guys have asked for pics in other threads, none forthcoming. I'm glad he helped you spend some time overcoming your wreck, that was a tough one.

Have to read the fine print
He says that 3000” is obtainable
Only way that happens is by including all the members of the deer family like moose and elk etc
It Brings the numbers back down to reality
Only think semi impressive is being with a bow.
Otherwise it’s nothing special

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by roper1

You realize with the 'shoot straight' biased comment you also believe bigger calibers are necessary?

Since when does calibre help poor shooting. A .338 in the guts doesn't kill any better.

[rem338win]

I voted yes based on my experience USING .223 calibre on deer. It worked without issue.

I'd like to see someone with actual experience explain from the no side.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The problem isn’t with the seasoned veteran. The problem is with some newbie going into cabelas, getting a brand new norinco, a crate of Chinese surplus ammo. And going and blasting at deer and moose. Someone who has no idea that they can’t use fmj for big game. That’s the problem!

When your going down highway 2 there isn’t a sign that says hey you can go however fast you want since your a semi professional race car driver. The speed limits are there because there’s too many idiots out Would be pushing the limits of their experience, skill and equipment. Just like with this spewing stats about about these Grendel’s, and 223 for big game.

Just my opinion

You need an argument with less holes in it.

On the surface Chinese surplus is illegal because its hardball.

And an open sighted 30-30 with bluebox ammo st 350yds would be better.

[ghostguy6]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The problem isn’t with the seasoned veteran. The problem is with some newbie going into cabelas, getting a brand new norinco, a crate of Chinese surplus ammo. And going and blasting at deer and moose. Someone who has no idea that they can’t use fmj for big game. That’s the problem!

But it still happens every year with sks crowd. The use of FMJ's is illegal on big game regardless of the caliber.

I for one am in favor of allowing the .223's for big game in Alberta. The .223 is cheap on the wallet which would allow more rounds to be spent on target shooting. The more accurate the shooter is the more ethically they can harvest the animal. Lets face it, lack of target practice is probably the bggest reason for missed or wounded animals. My .308 hunting ammo currently runs around $3 per shot. The same in .223 is around $1.13 per shot. With the current bullet selections you can find .223's that are more than capable of harvesting game effectively when used within their range. Another thing to consider is the recoil in smaller shooters, the .223 has one of the smallest recoils out there so this is perfect for younger hunters to learn on. Once a flinch develops, its very hard to get rid of.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

But it still happens every year with sks crowd. The use of FMJ's is illegal on big game regardless of the caliber.

I for one am in favor of allowing the .223's for big game in Alberta. The .223 is cheap on the wallet which would allow more rounds to be spent on target shooting. The more accurate the shooter is the more ethically they can harvest the animal. Lets face it, lack of target practice is probably the bggest reason for missed or wounded animals. My .308 hunting ammo currently runs around $3 per shot. The same in .223 is around $1.13 per shot. With the current bullet selections you can find .223's that are more than capable of harvesting game effectively when used within their range. Another thing to consider is the recoil in smaller shooters, the .223 has one of the smallest recoils out there so this is perfect for younger hunters to learn on. Once a flinch develops, its very hard to get rid of.

That would be a valuable reason, but when i am looking at prices of ammo right now, the legal hunting expanding bullet style ammunition is all near the same price as 243 308 270.... certainly not cheap like the fmj stuff.

On another note. Why dont you hunt with an sks then? Or maybe you do. I dont know. Compared with 223, the 7.62x39 has a slight advantage in killing power for the first 200 to 300 yards. Both cheap ammo. Both have similar recoil, lighter than the hard hitting 243.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by rem338win

You need an argument with less holes in it.

On the surface Chinese surplus is illegal because its hardball.

And an open sighted 30-30 with bluebox ammo st 350yds would be better.

We are talking about 223’s for big game here
Ya I know hardball is not legal
But would a newbie?
I’ve seen guys think they can shoot a 30-30 350 yards away
Just because they read the box and seen how many inches it dropped ty thought it was do able.
Ya that’s another palm situation
There’s too many as it is. Why would you want more?

[dmcbride]

I voted yes, I know a native fellow who hunts moose and elk with a .223. Know the capabilities of the round and shot placement and it is no different then any other round.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I voted yes, I know a native fellow who hunts moose and elk with a .223. Know the capabilities of the round and shot placement and it is no different then any other round.

Well that settles it then. If its proper for ethical hunting of moose and elk then it should be legal for everyone. Thanks dmcbride, your example changed my mind. It must have been such an honor to hear how traditional hunting goes without regulations being involved. I wonder what alberta hunting would be like if we looked at a bunch of other regulations and could change them if everyone voted about them.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Dubious

People like to think the recurves can be under powdered just like the .223 rifles but both in skilled hands are very deadly.

The .223 has been killing Combatants successfully since the 60’s. people and deer would both fall in cpx 2 category. Now before you guys go off the rails about how .223 was designed to fill stretchers and take numbers off the battlefield we’re not shooting full metal jacket bullets on game and even full metal jackets still kill.

The 22 call center fire are very deadly they have been used all over North America and in Africa to take all sorts of game that by some people’s opinions have no business taking. My prediction for this poll is the no vote will win. some people just refuse to accept the lethalitaly of lighter calibers and are stuck on there pet caliber that there dad or grandpa told them was the best. And for the average or newer hunter that’s used to leaning over the hood of there truck shooting deer off the trunk road this wouldn’t be a great pick for them. But for a skilled hunter who enjoys shooting his 223 22-250 or swifty there should be no issues with taking game.

Fair enough. No doubt the .223 will kill things. I agree with that, having used a .222 Rem Mag for several years. It also had it's limitations.
What I fail to understand is the reason some are leaning to smaller and smaller cartridges at greater ranges all the time. It can't all be due to bullet design. Although that can make some difference at the terminal end it won't
transform a small varmint type cartridge in to a viable Big Game cartridge. Adding additional powder capacity .. like a .22-06 or some other over-bore creation that has been mentioned previously, defeats the purpose of practicality.

There are a good number of very practical, proven cartridges available that will fulfill the low recoil,lightweight,accurate and efficient requirement with ease. They are also more accommodating to those that like to use the back side of a rifles performance curve at extended ranges. No matter what we try to do with a .22 cal, it will be tough to out- perform an older,established and proven cartridge with slightly bigger shoulders. If we aren't satisfied with a .23 cal as a minimum , move up a bit, not down. The Game you shoot will appreciate it. The .257 Roberts comes to mind.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I voted yes, I know a native fellow who hunts moose and elk with a .223. Know the capabilities of the round and shot placement and it is no different then any other round.

That could be another instance that gets chalked up to the mystical status of a Native hunter. It certainly does not apply to the majority of them. They are no different than any other class of hunter. Many of them have less experience, and are less capable riflemen than most other dedicated hunters from other backgrounds. As is normal, some are more efficient than others and have more bush savvy but for sure, nothing magical about their shooting or hunting skills.
I've hunted with native people on several occasions and have seen first hand
that the majority prefer calibers larger than .223... mostly .30 cal. They know better.

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Fair enough. No doubt the .223 will kill things. I agree with that, having used a .222 Rem Mag for several years. It also had it's limitations.
What I fail to understand is the reason some are leaning to smaller and smaller cartridges at greater ranges all the time. It can't all be due to bullet design. Although that can make some difference at the terminal end it won't
transform a small varmint type cartridge in to a viable Big Game cartridge. Adding additional powder capacity .. like a .22-06 or some other over-bore creation that has been mentioned previously, defeats the purpose of practicality.

There are a good number of very practical, proven cartridges available that will fulfill the low recoil,lightweight,accurate and efficient requirement with ease. They are also more accommodating to those that like to use the back side of a rifles performance curve at extended ranges. No matter what we try to do with a .22 cal, it will be tough to out- perform an older,established and proven cartridge with slightly bigger shoulders. If we aren't satisfied with a .23 cal as a minimum , move up a bit, not down. The Game you shoot will appreciate it. The .257 Roberts comes to mind.

I already shoot the 1/4 bore and it’s fantastic I have been told for years that they are way under sized not enough energy ineffective and generally they will just wound and you will loose game. All of that couldn’t be farther from the truth. The fear of people to push so hard against the the smaller cartridges and jump on the bandwagon of the heavy older established cartridges for what ever reason when both will get the job done isn’t a surprise to me anymore. Guess some people want to try some stuff other than the boring old Bread and butter chamberings.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

We are talking about 223’s for big game here
Ya I know hardball is not legal
But would a newbie?
I’ve seen guys think they can shoot a 30-30 350 yards away
Just because they read the box and seen how many inches it dropped ty thought it was do able.
Ya that’s another palm situation
There’s too many as it is. Why would you want more?

So why not ban guns in general so we can't have any mistakes?

The point is with a .22 caliber centerfire deer are dead as much as anything else. Poor choices are poor choices. If people aren't educating themselves what is a banning going to do?

A .243 with 55gr vmax's are just as bad.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Have to read the fine print
He says that 3000” is obtainable
Only way that happens is by including all the members of the deer family like moose and elk etc
It Brings the numbers back down to reality
Only think semi impressive is being with a bow.
Otherwise it’s nothing special

No it’s a deer only club. I think those rare guys that live it like chuck adams and various other guys like that that have countless p&y deer from all over the continent could get into the 3000 club and beyond? Or maybe it’s always the 1000 Club and we have gold/platinum/diamond for 1000/2000/3000+?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

What I fail to understand is the reason some are leaning to smaller and smaller cartridges at greater ranges all the time.

It's pretty simple, it's because they want to. You don't have to understand it, and after discussing with you extensively over the past few weeks, its most likely you won't ever understand. I don't understand why people feel the need for large bore magnums just to kill deer and elk when I have no problem killing them with pip squeak cartridges, but I don't have to understand, I just have to accept it.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

No it’s a deer only club. I think those rare guys that live it like chuck adams and various other guys like that that have countless p&y deer from all over the continent could get into the 3000 club and beyond? Or maybe it’s always the 1000 Club and we have gold/platinum/diamond for 1000/2000/3000+?

I interpret it as up to 7 animals totalling 3000”
That’s averaging 429 inches per animal man lol
I haven’t seen too many that are half that size haha
Archie Nesbit, now that guy is a slayer.
Never needed the public lime light ( so it seemed)
Just went out and crushed big critters all around the world
How many world records does that guy have?
Very impressive

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by rem338win

So why not ban guns in general so we can't have any mistakes?

The point is with a .22 caliber centerfire deer are dead as much as anything else. Poor choices are poor choices. If people aren't educating themselves what is a banning going to do?

A .243 with 55gr vmax's are just as bad.

You have to draw the line somewhere
That has always been at .23 cal

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

I interpret it as up to 7 animals totalling 3000”
That’s averaging 429 inches per animal man lol
I haven’t seen too many that are half that size haha
Archie Nesbit, now that guy is a slayer.
Never needed the public lime light ( so it seemed)
Just went out and crushed big critters all around the world
How many world records does that guy have?
Very impressive

Archie is a badazz, marches to his own drum and I think it’s pretty cool. Interesting setup by recollection too...6 pin, 20 yard gaps, biscuit, plenty of kills over 100, and one of the deadliest guys with a bow no doubt. Don’t quote me on gear setup, pretty sure that’s how he rolls though.

1000 club allows up to 7 deer. Each 1000” net allows up to 7. Thing is with bowhunters, they will rack up the numbers well past 7. There’s a guy I read about recently that had over 20 whitetails that p&y or was it boone? When you’re dedicated and live where that’s all you have then those guys just rack up big whitetails. I made the club for any deer hunter in North America can achieve it not easily. You’ll likely not get in if you only target blacktails or coues so you’ll need some whitetails or muleys to help get 1k net”.

[marky_mark]

And he’s from Alberta also