Shop Labour price now includes Counselling Costs

[Drewski Canuck]

Was at Whitecap Motor Sports in Slave Lake picking up some parts for Ratherbehunting's Argo as we were going in to meet him in the bush.

Shop rate was posted as $125 / hr for Polaris etc.

Shop rate for ARGO was posted at $135 / hr???

Baby Brother asked why the extra $10 / hr at the Service Counter??

I replied for the service writer: Its to pay for the Counselling Costs.

That said, Roy's voltage regulator blew and ended the trip for him on his 07 Argo Conquest.

So the Question is, why does ARGO not include as part of its warranty coverage the Counselling Costs for the owners?

Drewski

[jstubbs]

A guy I knew once referred to himself as a “part time hunting guide, full time Argo mechanic” lol.

[Bigwoodsman]

That’s hilarious
When I had my Argo I hunted a lot on foot. Walking out back to the truck.

BW

[Grizzly Adams]

Surprised truck dealers haven't picked up on this. Yup, that's a hundred bucks for shop supplies and another for the Emts when you get the bill.

Grizz

[Dean2]

Not the first time I have seen that. ATV dealer had a $100/hr shop rate for all quads, except Kawasaki was $125 an hour. His reason, his mechanics hated working on Kawasaki because they are such a pain to even change a plug on. As a result he had to pay them more or they wouldn't work on them. He was a Kawasaki dealer, along with a couple of other brands. I can't say I blame him, I had told all my buds and relates, for whom I did a fair amount of quad fixing, that any Kawasaki they bought had to go to the dealer for repairs, I wouldn't work on them.

I am betting it is the same issue with Argo, though I never found them near as bad as a Kawasaki to work one.

[Ken07AOVette]

What REALLY burns me is the fact they they charge $125 per hour to have a kid working at $15 an hour who takes twice as long to do it.

Everywhere.

[Sooner]

I recall wanting to shoot dads first argo a few times when it would just quit. A 76 6 wheel. His 05 Bigfoot 6 wheel must have been built with love, never an issue out in the woods so far.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

What REALLY burns me is the fact they they charge $125 per hour to have a kid working at $15 an hour who takes twice as long to do it.

Everywhere.

Buddy has a Kubota he took in for some repairs in Olds. His wife was shocked at the bill, when she went to pick it up, a relatively simple repair. Being a savy woman , she told the guy to check the flat rate book for what it should take. Surprise, the bill went to almost half. turns out the mechanic screwed up first try and they had the nerve to charge for that.

Grizz

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Buddy has a Kubota he took in for some repairs in Olds. His wife was shocked at the bill, when she went to pick it up. Being a savy woman , she told the guy to check the flat rate book for what it should take. Surprise, the bill went to almost half. turns out the mechanic screwed up first try and they had the nerve to charge for that.

Grizz

I believe it! I see it all the time. I had my boat winterized a couple years ago, got there at 12, left at 1. They tried charging me 2.5 hour labor! LOL!!

[brslk]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

I believe it! I see it all the time. I had my boat winterized a couple years ago, got there at 12, left at 1. They tried charging me 2.5 hour labor! LOL!!

That's how flat rate works. If the Book rate is 2 hours and the mechanic does it in 1 hour, you still get charged 2 hours. If the book rate is 2 hours and it takes the mechanic 3 hours, you still get charged 2 hours.

Basically expecting to only pay for an hour when the book rate is double is punishing the mechanic for being good at what he does.

I can replace the blend doors in an Impala in about 1.5 hours. The book rate is 8.something. The customer gets charged book rate. Either that or I can have an apprentice take all day to do it and charge an hourly rate... lets say it takes the apprentice 12 hours, you cool with that?

Maybe they had two or three guys working on your boat to get it done quicker because you were waiting.

I'm not trying to argue with you Ken, you're a pretty reasonable guy, I just hate it when people think they're getting ripped off by flat rate.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by brslk

That's how flat rate works. If the Book rate is 2 hours and the mechanic does it in 1 hour, you still get charged 2 hours. If the book rate is 2 hours and it takes the mechanic 3 hours, you still get charged 2 hours.

Basically expecting to only pay for an hour when the book rate is double is punishing the mechanic for being good at what he does.

I can replace the blend doors in an Impala in about 1.5 hours. The book rate is 8.something. The customer gets charged book rate. Either that or I can have an apprentice take all day to do it and charge an hourly rate... lets say it takes the apprentice 12 hours, you cool with that?

Maybe they had two or three guys working on your boat to get it done quicker because you were waiting.

I'm not trying to argue with you Ken, you're a pretty reasonable guy, I just hate it when people think they're getting ripped off by flat rate.

If the book says it should take 2 hours, how can a mechanic do it in 1 hour ? I think of the guy that caused an Air Alaska crash by fast timing the tail jack screw lubrication. The cause was determined by maintenance records that documented the time involved a fraction of what it should have been.

Grizz

[gunluvr]

A good, experienced mechanic will find ways to improve on flat rate time if he does the same task enough times. A shoddy mechanic might beat flat rate time by cutting corners. A reputable shop will charge flat rate no matter how long it takes. Sometimes they profit, sometimes they lose. They will adjust their labor force accordingly. Apprentices need to go through the learning curve. (I was an autobody mechanic for 28 years).
Nobody likes to get a big bill to pay, but running a repair shop isn't a picnic. There are overhead costs everywhere.

[204ruger]

Originally Posted by brslk

That's how flat rate works. If the Book rate is 2 hours and the mechanic does it in 1 hour, you still get charged 2 hours. If the book rate is 2 hours and it takes the mechanic 3 hours, you still get charged 2 hours.

Basically expecting to only pay for an hour when the book rate is double is punishing the mechanic for being good at what he does.

I can replace the blend doors in an Impala in about 1.5 hours. The book rate is 8.something. The customer gets charged book rate. Either that or I can have an apprentice take all day to do it and charge an hourly rate... lets say it takes the apprentice 12 hours, you cool with that?

Maybe they had two or three guys working on your boat to get it done quicker because you were waiting.

I'm not trying to argue with you Ken, you're a pretty reasonable guy, I just hate it when people think they're getting ripped off by flat rate.

Well said! I don’t like it when the efficient mechanic gets punished because he gets the job done quickly. What we started doing at a shop I worked at was most big jobs were left for the day we would drop customer off at home or work or whatever but they weren’t waiting around. Because you get too many people saying “but it only took you _____ many hours”. guys gotta make a living too.

[ctd]

Flat rate is such a joke. Originally was based on a time estimate for the average time so the customer knew what to expect the bill to come to. AKA quote.
Them the industry said yup that's the charge.
I can honestly say I have never been charged flat rate unless it came under the hours. But over the estimate and it was lots of well this happened and that happened. We had to replace this also and that also. But we have you a deal.

For example replacing a clutch, changing tranny/transfer case fluid.

Flat rate shop
Replace clutch 8.5hrs
Rear main seal 1.5hrs
Tranny fluid 1.5 hrs
Transfer case 1.5hrs
Replace slave cylinder 1.5hrs
Shop rate $165hr
Total book hrs 14.5hrs
Labour only book cost $2392.5
Parts flat rate shop
Stock clutch $3500
Slave cylinder $700
Tranny/Transfer case fluid $162
Rear main seal $210
Total $6964

Local shop quote 8 hrs
replace clutch 8hrs (actual time 6hrs)
rear main seal .5hrs
tranny fluid .5
Replace slave cylinder 1.5hrs
After market clutch $1775 slave kit included
shop rate $110hr
Total book/quote time 11hrs
Tranny/transfer case fluid $72
Rear main seal $110
Total $2892

actual labour only charged 8.5hrs flat rate shop charges me to change out my tranny oil but actually didnt do it, stating it was life time.oil in there. But they took my money. The clutch they were installing was not guaranteed to hold anymore power then my stock one and it was going to use the same fly wheel. Wheres the after market included a new fly wheel.

Local shop quoted 8 hours to change out the clutch which included the changing the slave cylinder. Actual time change 6 hrs. Tranny and transfer case drain and fill was done while performing other tasks. They charged me .5hr extra for the rear main seal because it wasnt originally in the estimate. Since it took no time at all since everything was already out.

Difference between flat rate shop and local hourly/quote shop is
$4072 difference for the same job.

When questioned on the cost at the flat rate shop they stated that's how we charge.

To go further the local shop actually worked at the flat rate place and were tired of unfair practices and customers being ripped off.
So they started their own shop and have only grown substantially since then.
Its funny. I was always told the Journayman was working on all my trucks and had inspected everytime an apprentice asssited to fix anything. Turns out the apprentice worked on their own with little to any supervision until somthing went wrong.
After many many hours of frustration and major screwups I stopped going to the flat rate shops. Guess what i have not been over billed and under serviced since.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by ctd

Flat rate is such a joke. Originally was based on a time estimate for the average time so the customer knew what to expect the bill to come to. AKA quote.
Them the industry said yup that's the charge.
I can honestly say I have never been charged flat rate unless it came under the hours. But over the estimate and it was lots of well this happened and that happened. We had to replace this also and that also. But we have you a deal.

For example replacing a clutch, changing tranny/transfer case fluid.

Flat rate shop local shop quote 8 hrs
Replace clutch 8.5hrs replace clutch 8hrs (actual time 6hrs)
Rear main seal 1.5hrs rear main seal .5hrs
Tranny fluid 1.5 hrs tranny fluid .5
Transfer case 1.5hrs transfer case .5
Replace slave cylinder 1.5hrs replace slave cylinder 1.5hrs
Shop rate $165hr shop rate $110hr
Total book hrs 14.5hrs Total book/quote time 11hrs
Labour only book cost $2392.5 actual labour only charged 8.5hrs $935.
Parts
Stock clutch $3500 After market clutch $1775
Slave cylinder $700 included with clutch kit.
Tranny/Transfer case fluid $162 $72
Rear main seal $210 $110
Total $6964 $2892

Flat rate shop charges me to change out my tranny oil but actually didnt do it, stating it was life time.oul in there. But they took my money. The clutch they were installing was not guaranteed to hold anymore power then my stock one and it was going to use the same fly wheel. Wheres the after market included a new fly wheel.

Local shop quoted 8 hours to change out the clutch which included the changing the slave cylinder. Actual time change 6 hrs. Tranny and transfer case drain and fill was done while performing other tasks. They charged me .5hr extra for the rear main seal because it wasnt originally in the estimate. Since it took no time at all since everything was already out.

Difference between flat rate shop and local hourly/quote shop is
$4072 difference for the same job.

When questioned on the cost at the flat rate shop they stated that's how we charge.

To go further the local shop actually worked at the flat rate place and were tired of unfair practices and customers being ripped off.
So they started their own shop and have only grown substantially since then.
Its funny. I was always told the Journayman was working on all my trucks and had inspected everytime an apprentice asssited to fix anything. Turns out the apprentice worked on their own with little to any supervision until somthing went wrong.
After many many hours of frustration and major screwups I stopped going to the flat rate shops. Guess what i have not been over billed and under serviced since.

That pretty much says it all. Not every dealership is out to rape and pillage, the Lexus dealer in West Edmonton is actually really good to deal with, charges reasonable for parts and does not over charge labour, but it is one of the few dealerships I have any respect for.

I don't care how experienced the mechanic is, if I am getting charged 8 hours for a job that takes 1.5 hours, I am getting ripped off, end of story. If an apprentice takes 8 hours, that is not what the flat rate should be based on, because that means it is his first time doing it. There is a learning curve with everything. Also means I could probably do it myself in 4.

In general, find a really good guy that knows his stuff, charges fairly and if you can find one that will use Rock Auto or Partsking supplied parts so much the better, then stick with them for ever.

[ctd]

When some one says my expierance is worth money. I wont disagree with that statement. That's why Journyman wages have gone from $25 upwards of $65 an hour average of $35-45. Based on hours worked. That should be fair.
Because if I charged out for what I am actually worth with my expierance for the job I do now I would be quadruple what I make now. But I only get paid the hours I work. Not the hours it may take me to do the job.
Darn we were under charging significantly in the oilfield. I can only imagine if we did a book rate based on average time ls from 10 years ago. Where it took 30 days to complete a well. Today we get it done in 48hrs. I am missing out on some serious coin.

[204ruger]

Originally Posted by ctd

When some one says my expierance is worth money. I wont disagree with that statement. That's why Journyman wages have gone from $25 upwards of $65 an hour average of $35-45. Based on hours worked. That should be fair.
Because if I charged out for what I am actually worth with my expierance for the job I do now I would be quadruple what I make now. But I only get paid the hours I work. Not the hours it may take me to do the job.
Darn we were under charging significantly in the oilfield. I can only imagine if we did a book rate based on average time ls from 10 years ago. Where it took 30 days to complete a well. Today we get it done in 48hrs. I am missing out on some serious coin.

So you went from 720 hrs to 48hrs to drill a well! Hum
In that 48hrs it takes you to drill a well now, if there is anything unforeseen and there is an additional 5 hrs or whatever added on you will charge dearly for it, but if a mechanic does he’s a rip off artist. Part of the reason “book time” is there is for the unforeseen problems so if a mechanic gets it done quicker without complications then both the shop and mechanic should benefit. I’m talking within reason usually it’s only a few hours difference not 672 hrs.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by ctd

Flat rate is such a joke.

?????

Originally Posted by ctd

Originally was based on a time estimate for the average time so the customer knew what to expect the bill to come to. AKA quote.
Them the industry said yup that's the charge.

AFAIK, the practice of 'flat rate' was introduced by manufacturers to control easily inflated warranty labor cost claims from their independent stealerships.
At that time most warranties were quite short by today's standard (IIRC, max 2 yrs/20,00m? was typical, 5yrs/50,000 miles was revolutionary).
The factory warranty flat-rate times were NOT generous, and were based on tests of factory trained & experienced mechanics, with ALL of the specialized factory tooling, jigs, manuals and procedures, and performed on NEW vehicles with no corrosion, wear or material failure.

Many aftermarket sources published 'flat rate' manuals that were MUCH more generous to both the mechanics and the stealerships. These 'flat rate' times were normally used for all non-warranty customers.
These 'flat-rate time manuals' all had statements that any corroded or damaged parts requiring extra work, would be billed any additional time needed.

The fast tune-up (remember those) and front end guys did VERY well.

At that time the parts dept would also routinely 'purchase' BNIB parts from the mechanics (for a significantly discounted price.) LOTS of manufacturers and regular customers paid for new parts never installed.

I saw LOTS of other stuff like adding gear oil to engine of a used car that 'smoked', and similar.

I suspect nothing much has changed, but the parts buy-back is more discrete.

After you shake hands with a stealership, count your fingers.

Originally Posted by ctd

flat rate shop charges me to change out my tranny oil but actually didnt do it, stating it was life time.oil in there.

IMHO this is false economy, I prefer to change gear oils (particularly lightweight lubes like Dexron) after break-in (~30,000km) and occasionally afterward (~150-200,000km or after deep 'water-time'). It is cheap and easy and a good opportunity to inspect when changing the gasket, (a cheap suction pump is handy). Check the breather and hose.
IMHE, there is usually a visible 'silver sheen' on the surface of the old break-in oil.
IMHO, clean lubes are a great investment (and easy to DIY).

Good Luck, YMMV.

[ctd]

Originally Posted by 204ruger

So you went from 720 hrs to 48hrs to drill a well! Hum
In that 48hrs it takes you to drill a well now, if there is anything unforeseen and there is an additional 5 hrs or whatever added on you will charge dearly for it, but if a mechanic does he’s a rip off artist. Part of the reason “book time” is there is for the unforeseen problems so if a mechanic gets it done quicker without complications then both the shop and mechanic should benefit. I’m talking within reason usually it’s only a few hours difference not 672 hrs.

I do not say drill a well i said complete a well. Yes I stand by my time lines.
On some of the equipment and companies I worked for unforeseen issues were not paid especially of we broke or caused the issue. In some.cases we lost the entire job and or project.
The quote given was the price charged.

[abhunter8]

Originally Posted by Sooner

I recall wanting to shoot dads first argo a few times when it would just quit. A 76 6 wheel. His 05 Bigfoot 6 wheel must have been built with love, never an issue out in the woods so far.

Oh, I remember!

[abhunter8]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

I believe it! I see it all the time. I had my boat winterized a couple years ago, got there at 12, left at 1. They tried charging me 2.5 hour labor! LOL!!

I see this all the time. I had a hot water tank replaced by a prominent Plumbing and heating company in Drayton Valley. 2 guys showed up at 1pm and were all done and gone by 3:30. They charged me for 4 hours. The owners said load and unload time etc. The shop is 5 minutes from my house. I went into to talk to them and they wanted to argue and yell at me. They reduced the bill to 3 hours. Also 2 young guys doing the work. One guy said he is 1st year apprentice ($20) and 2nd said he is just starting his 3rd yr ($27) of apprenticeship. I got charged 2 Journeymans rates of around $100. I don't mind paying for what is actually done and fair but I hate being unreasonably ripped off!

[hogie]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

What REALLY burns me is the fact they they charge $125 per hour to have a kid working at $15 an hour who takes twice as long to do it.

Everywhere.

That's the worst. These guys get free rent and all there power and gas bills are paid for by the government. They don't even have to pay taxes. Crooks all of them. Then they pay someone minimum wage and make all the profit, $110 an hour right in there pocket with no expenses. I heard that all the equipment is only given to them at cost, the manufacturer don't make any money on it as the government makes it this way. What a racket.

[Dewey Cox]

Originally Posted by hogie

That's the worst. These guys get free rent and all there power and gas bills are paid for by the government. They don't even have to pay taxes. Crooks all of them. Then they pay someone minimum wage and make all the profit, $110 an hour right in there pocket with no expenses. I heard that all the equipment is only given to them at cost, the manufacturer don't make any money on it as the government makes it this way. What a racket.

With all due respect, what are you talking about?

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by hogie

That's the worst. These guys get free rent and all there power and gas bills are paid for by the government. They don't even have to pay taxes. Crooks all of them. Then they pay someone minimum wage and make all the profit, $110 an hour right in there pocket with no expenses. I heard that all the equipment is only given to them at cost, the manufacturer don't make any money on it as the government makes it this way. What a racket.

Have you been into the sacramental wine already? A little Ganja maybe.

Your post makes no sense. May want to edit it while you still can.

[hogie]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

With all due respect, what are you talking about?

About guys complaining about shop rates and wages paid as the quote I replied to.

Some guys figure that the shop rate is high compared to the labour cost. They forget that there is a lot of overhead to pay. There are other wages paid out of shop rate that need to taken into account. The shop has equipment costs and repairs as well. Have to pay for staff that don't do the repairs as well. Heat and power, rent , taxes and many other costs.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by hogie

About guys complaining about shop rates and wages paid as the quote I replied to.

Some guys figure that the shop rate is high compared to the labour cost. They forget that there is a lot of overhead to pay. There are other wages paid out of shop rate that need to taken into account. The shop has equipment costs and repairs as well. Have to pay for staff that don't do the repairs as well. Heat and power, rent , taxes and many other costs.

Now it makes sense, I was missing the sarcasm angle. Damn it is hard to convey nuance in email, posts and the like.

All in, I think everyone on here knows that shops have overhead and lots of other costs. No one minds a place making a fair profit, we all have to eat. What most guys are cranky about is the getting bent over feeling. There seem to be an awful lot of shops where the shave is always in their favour. If it takes two hours and the book is 4 they charge book, if it takes 6 they want to charge time spent. Also, most guys really object to paying Journeyman wages for apprentice work. Personally, I specify exactly who I want working on my stuff and I will wait till that person is available. If an apprentice wants to learn he can observe and help but I am not paying top dollar for a green man.

[ctd]

All the times I have had my various trucks into various Dodge shops mysteriously no problem was found until a catastrophic failure occurred or it was not covered under warranty or they fixed one issue, charged money for other services not approved and broke something else expensive and tried to hide it.
One shop did the first 5 oil changes but never greased my front drive shaft once. When it failed I went in for warrenty work and asked how a driveshaft failed in 40,000 km. I was told because it wasnt greased. Turns out neither were the two fittings in the ball joints. $2200 later.
I went back to the 5 star shop and asked for all my oil.change records. Then asked the service manager how come none of my grease fittings were greased. "He responded my journyman who inspects the trucks has told me there are no grease fittings" as I said lets go look under my truck and take a look. He refused to go because he was in a fancy suit. I grapped his tie and kinda led him like a dog under my truck and pointed out the three greese fittings that had never been touched by his shop.
Magically his "journeymen" was there and stated I have never been under one of these new trucks yet. Good to know thanks I will pass this onto the oil change guys.
Similar story with them working on my truck fixing injectors. Charged full shop rate promised their senior diesel tech was working to fix the issue. Turns out it was their third year apprentice who didnt know diesels but new how.to use the scanntool. In doing so did not know how to perform the tests properly. That cost 10,000.

The dealership just walks away.
Corporate Head quarters lays the blame in the truck owner to "ensure competent fully qualified trained people do the warrenty approved work" turns out the Local dodge dealer in Barrie Ont or Cold lake Ab did not have properly trained staff.

How about when they changed my instrument cluster due to a failure. Scratched the new one so bad you had a hard time seeing the speed. At the same time they broke my driver side mirror and some how my rear slider. Said nothing to me. I would not have been able to prove the mirror other then they didnt clean the paint off from their hoist that matched the plastic left on the hoist.
The rear slider well the tech shouldnt have left his screw driver.

[Cement Bench]

what are the counselling costs?

not sure I understand , is it the training costs?

[hogie]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Now it makes sense, I was missing the sarcasm angle. Damn it is hard to convey nuance in email, posts and the like.

All in, I think everyone on here knows that shops have overhead and lots of other costs. No one minds a place making a fair profit, we all have to eat. What most guys are cranky about is the getting bent over feeling. There seem to be an awful lot of shops where the shave is always in their favour. If it takes two hours and the book is 4 they charge book, if it takes 6 they want to charge time spent. Also, most guys really object to paying Journeyman wages for apprentice work. Personally, I specify exactly who I want working on my stuff and I will wait till that person is available. If an apprentice wants to learn he can observe and help but I am not paying top dollar for a green man.

The thing with flat rate times is a guy that's doing that same job all the time will figure a way to do it quicker. The guy doing once every year may not break even. So what's fair? There are some jobs that I break even on, sometimes lose on. The ones that I make time on offset my losses. Part of being flat rate.

I'm a big guy, thick hands and my forearms are a decent size. Flat rate doesn't take that into consideration, many times I take more things off just so I can get at what I'm doing. Customers don't pay more for that, nor do I think they should.

I do agree that there are dishonest shops out there. I shake my head at quotes I've seen over the years. Sometimes it is a dishonest tech at a good shop that over quotes to line there pockets.

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by Cement Bench

what are the counselling costs?

not sure I understand , is it the training costs?

After reading this thread I think I need counselling myself. Does AO have a Pastor?

BW