Old School versus new technology!!! Muzzleloaders!!

[pitw]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

i guess thats why they call them modern day muzzle loaders , and for that matters
one could always get a gibbs or a whitworth henry(which were both used as snipers rifles in the war of independance against england ,and in the cival war1000 yrd shots were not uncommon wth either) and out shoot the modern day in lines,
http://www.johno.myiglou.com/whitworth.htm
Davide Pedersoli Gibbs Rifle : Cabela's

Or this one.


500gr paper patched bullet.




Pic of the hexagonal barrel.


Unfortunately she was designed to shoot further than I can see.


Only reproduction I ever bought but I suppose cause I only ever saw 2 of the originals and neither of them could I buy.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Are you related to elkhunter11...

Once again your ability to stay on topic intrigues me, but no I'm not but if he is as reasonable, honest and resourceful as I, we might be.

[aulrich]

Thats neat looking, did not think that a hex barrel would be hex on the inside. yikes!

I would have expected a peep sight rear but I guess either would have been normal.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by aulrich

Thats neat looking, did not think that a hex barrel would be hex on the inside. yikes!

I would have expected a peep sight rear but I guess either would have been normal.

The hex rifling is what made the Whitworth famous.
Cat

[Unregistered user]

In some areas "Primitive weapons" includes shotgun, what's the big deal? If you're good with the gun and it's legit, use it and happy hunting to ya.

[180+]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

In some areas "Primitive weapons" includes shotgun, what's the big deal? If you're good with the gun and it's legit, use it and happy hunting to ya.

What the heck does a shotgun nhave to do with muzzleloaders!! Might as well bring in bows, spears, swords, those are primitive weapons!! The question is about the modernization of muzzleloaders!!

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

pitw
thats a sweet looking gun, I asume it shoots as good as it looks,
is it for sale????(hint hint )

[Unregistered user]

Originally Posted by 180+

What the heck does a shotgun nhave to do with muzzleloaders!! Might as well bring in bows, spears, swords, those are primitive weapons!! The question is about the modernization of muzzleloaders!!

In post #8 and # 25 you made reference to "Primitive weapons" That's what. Don't try high-roadin' me Ma'am.

[moosemad]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Morton

When it comes to smokepoles the real issue is what are used for sights. My uncles old style gun will shoot the same groups at 80 yards (which is a what muzzleloaders are supposed to be made for) as my Knight will...but this is with open sights not a Leupold. If i took his gun and drilled it for a scope it would with the right load shoot just as far as my knight can...maybe better due to the longer barrel and set trigger!!!

I can just about gaurantee that if you took the scopes off of everyones rifles the success rates would drop dramatically, no matter if it was a 30-30 or a 30-378...its really not about the gun at all, its the scope IMO.

Big daddy, nobody said it yet so I will, put some clothes on man! Are you sure your on the right web site.

[pitw]

Originally Posted by u_cant_rope_the_wind

pitw
thats a sweet looking gun, I asume it shoots as good as it looks,
is it for sale????(hint hint )

For the right price yes.

[Big Daddy Morton]

Originally Posted by moosemad

Big daddy, nobody said it yet so I will, put some clothes on man! Are you sure your on the right web site.

That really hurts...that cut deep

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by pitw

For the right price yes.

the price is right game HUH
sent ya a pm

[moosemad]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Morton

That really hurts...that cut deep

Sorry man, didn't want to hurt anyones feelings. Just an off colored joke. You wouldn't want to see a pic of me dressed like that.

[powerman]

Without ruffleing any feathers, what ammo are you using out of the muzzleloader? Is anyone still using a lead ball? Is that the distiction between modern and primative? I think we all use a little advantage when we hunt. Do you take your lazer range finder with that muzzleloader? I have not taken an animal with my muzzle loader yet as I do not have the experiance with it, and is that not what is important, taking an animal with little suffering, and not much tracking blood? If you can do it with an old muzzleloader, more power to you. If you can't but are willing to take the shot anyway, maybe you should have the mordern stuff to help. I think it is a matter of hunter ethics as much as anything else.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by powerman

Without ruffleing any feathers, what ammo are you using out of the muzzleloader? Is anyone still using a lead ball? Is that the distiction between modern and primative? I think we all use a little advantage when we hunt. Do you take your lazer range finder with that muzzleloader? I have not taken an animal with my muzzle loader yet as I do not have the experiance with it, and is that not what is important, taking an animal with little suffering, and not much tracking blood? If you can do it with an old muzzleloader, more power to you. If you can't but are willing to take the shot anyway, maybe you should have the mordern stuff to help. I think it is a matter of hunter ethics as much as anything else.

depends what muzzle loader i,m useing, if i,m useing my inline then i use sabots, my hawkens then i use a round ball, my gibbs then i use a longer conical shaped bullet designed specificly for the gibbs,yes i use a range finder,
no i dont take the shot if i dont feel it right

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by powerman

Without ruffleing any feathers, what ammo are you using out of the muzzleloader? Is anyone still using a lead ball? Is that the distiction between modern and primative? I think we all use a little advantage when we hunt. Do you take your lazer range finder with that muzzleloader? I have not taken an animal with my muzzle loader yet as I do not have the experiance with it, and is that not what is important, taking an animal with little suffering, and not much tracking blood? If you can do it with an old muzzleloader, more power to you. If you can't but are willing to take the shot anyway, maybe you should have the mordern stuff to help. I think it is a matter of hunter ethics as much as anything else.

I use patched round ball only in my rifles, as does my son.
I take a range finder with me at times, because i tend to grab my geovids with the built in range finder, but mostly I use a smaller set of binoculers, with no range finder.
I make sure of my shots, be it with modern stuff or muzzle loaders.
Cat

[powerman]

I know that there are good shooters on this sight. Most that use a ML also do it because of there love for hunting, but there are people that get them to hunt in the warmer weather and be done soon so they can get back to drinking beer on there hunting trip, instead of hunting. I am not trying to insult the real shooters with my comments, but opening day can be scary and it is good to get them out of the way before they mistake me as the biggest buck in the woods.

[pitw]

For the fellow wondering what I use and how I decide when to shoot. I use round ball[lead], maxi ball[lead] and whatever I want to use[never put a sabot in a barrel yet]. How I shoot is much like the fellows who built these old guns in the first place, carefully. Think back to 1830 and ask yourself are you going to take a bunch of dumb shots cause I can go get a battery out of a car and melt it down for more bullets. Or I feel like a hundred mile walk for more lead because I shot all my bullets and didn't get anything.
The old boys didn't waste much of anything, that is the new way of thinking which I don't subscribe to.

pitw, I'm sure you are the most ethical of hunters and only shoot within the range of your chosen load but from what I've seen, most round ball shooters have little concept of how ineffective a .50 cal round ball is at ranges past 50 yards. When I hear guys start talking about 100+ yard shots with round balls, I just shake my head. For guys that aren't willing to limit themselves to the ethical limitations of a round ball, I'd say that I'd rather see them shooting a sobot that will actually kill an animal at 100 yards. You put too stringent of limitations on muzzleloaders and you are simply opening the door to way too many wounded animals. At least with a sabot, if the guy hits the animal anywhere near the vitals, it will die.

Round ball shooting in all but the most ethical and experienced shooters is quite possibly one of the most unethical practices in hunting today. Most guys won't take the time to understand the limitations of a round ball and if muzzleloaders were legislated in that direction, I'm sure most wouldn't take the time then either.

[pitw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

pitw, I'm sure you are the most ethical of hunters and only shoot within the range of your chosen load but from what I've seen, most round ball shooters have little concept of how ineffective a .50 cal round ball is at ranges past 50 yards. When I hear guys start talking about 100+ yard shots with round balls, I just shake my head. For guys that aren't willing to limit themselves to the ethical limitations of a round ball, I'd say that I'd rather see them shooting a sobot that will actually kill an animal at 100 yards. You put too stringent of limitations on muzzleloaders and you are simply opening the door to way too many wounded animals. At least with a sabot, if the guy hits the animal anywhere near the vitals, it will die.

Round ball shooting in all but the most ethical and experienced shooters is quite possibly one of the most unethical practices in hunting today. Most guys won't take the time to understand the limitations of a round ball and if muzzleloaders were legislated in that direction, I'm sure most wouldn't take the time then either.

With my old .45 I have shot two deer one at 14yds and one at 5yds. My old .54 I have shot more[better gun] but the longest would have been 55 yds through the heart and the Muley buck died standing, stuck up in a willow bush. Don't bother talking about the ethics of round balls cause far more game is wounded by center fire rifles than old muzzle loaders.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by pitw

With my old .45 I have shot two deer one at 14yds and one at 5yds. My old .54 I have shot more[better gun] but the longest would have been 55 yds through the heart and the Muley buck died standing, stuck up in a willow bush. Don't bother talking about the ethics of round balls cause far more game is wounded by center fire rifles than old muzzle loaders.

X2.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but you can't legislate ethics...

Waxy

Originally Posted by pitw

Don't bother talking about the ethics of round balls cause far more game is wounded by center fire rifles than old muzzle loaders.

Likely because there are far more guys using centrefires. You legislate the use of round balls and I'll guarantee you'll see that wounding number go through the roof. Most guys would not take the time you have to learn the limitations of their rifle. Most guys are once a year or once every few year shooters and really don't understand what an ineffective projectile a round ball is at ranges past 50 yards. Also, I can't see many guys buying new rifles to shoot roundballs and we all know how well and effective they are from an in-line. Placing limitations like the use of round balls on a muzzleloader season borders on legislating poor ethics in my opinion.

Not much different than telling compund bow hunters that they could no longer use broadheads and they were now limited to field points. They could still hit critters at extended bow ranges just as round ball shooters can but, well you do the math.

[BallCoeff.435]

I dunno.. I'm still pretty fond of my RL22 and IMR 7828. But I think some muzzle loaders are cool and would be really interested into getting into specific kinds of them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QerAi...eature=related

[pitw]

sheephunter for a fellow who has showed his ethics on other threads you sure seem intent on getting us who choose to use our old weapons on some kind of endangered species list. Next you are going to tell me that using my hat for patching material is unethical cause it might have dandruff on it.

Originally Posted by pitw

sheephunter for a fellow who has showed his ethics on other threads you sure seem intent on getting us who choose to use our old weapons on some kind of endangered species list. Next you are going to tell me that using my hat for patching material is unethical cause it might have dandruff on it.

Not at all, I'm certain you shoot with the utmost ethics and I've never thought or indicated otherwise so please don't attempt to make it look as though I have. I'm sure you've taken the time to understand the limitations of your load. I have no interest in putting any firearm or load on the endangered species list....I'd just hate to see their use become mandatory because I'm sure you'll agree that many of the very casual muzzleloader shooters would not show the same time commitment and care that you do. I have the utmost respect for those that choose the old ways and put the time and dedication in to shoot them ethically and would lobby hard to protect their right to that.

No more reductio ad absurdum or putting words in my mouth okay.....let's have a discussion based on what I'm actually saying...not what you are imagining or wishing I might be saying. I find that once people stoop to that level that they have very little to add to a discussion.

[brad925]

Originally Posted by 180+

This might stir the pot a little but here go's!! I just got into muzzlleloading this year shooting the ole smokepole!! I even shot a nice whitetail doe!! Trouble is I kinda started a trend with my hunting buddies!! They were sure interested in the new way to hunt but when they bought there "muzzleloaders"these things were no where near what mine is!! All scoped out different ignition system way easier to load etc etc!! where do we draw the line at from old to new ? I have permission on land in southern alberta that has never been rifle hunted!! But I got the ok as long as open sights were used!! My 2 hunting buddies guns are good too 200 plus yards and they shoot pretty well now that they got there loads figured out!! Is it just me but why does everything have too be reinvented!! Davy crockett never had no fancy muzzleoader with a scope errrr maybe he should have!! So what do you guys think?????

My definition of a primative hunting rifle. Flint or percussion ignition. Cast ball or bullet ....no jacketed or saboted ammo. Loose powder, black or substitute only. Scopes optional for those who don't see well enough to shoot irons. And if you think the scope give an advantage have a look at the winners in the BPCR events where scopes are allowed against irons.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by brad925

My definition of a primative hunting rifle. Flint or percussion ignition. Cast ball or bullet ....no jacketed or saboted ammo. Loose powder, black or substitute only. Scopes optional for those who don't see well enough to shoot irons. And if you think the scope give an advantage have a look at the winners in the BPCR events where scopes are allowed against irons.

X2
primitive muzzle loading is more akin to archery hunting that hunting with modern rifles.
Cat