Kill the moose to save the caribou?

[IronNoggin]

How will killing moose save caribou? That is a great question. The logic behind this goes as follows: wolves are a major predator for caribou and another staple of their diet is moose. The more moose we kill, the fewer wolves there will be and the more caribou we will save. So in order to save our caribou populations, the NDP have declared open season on moose calves and cows.

Needless to say, the logic is a bit flawed. Firstly, if wolves can’t find as many moose, won’t they just look for more caribou? Secondly, is this really the greatest option we have to protect the caribou? Killing calves and mothers? I am all for controlled game hunting, but I feel like we have so many more options available to protect our caribou populations and I am not the only one feels this way.

Thousands of British Columbians concerned about preserving moose populations as well as caribou have voiced their opposition to this announcement.

https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/opi...bou-1.24153859

The related Petition:

https://www.change.org/p/premier-joh...-horgan-s-plan

[bobwayzie]

Wow BC Wow.... Just cull the wolves.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by bobwayzie

Wow BC Wow.... Just cull the wolves.

Maybe bears too?

[Osky]

Originally Posted by Stinky Buffalo

Maybe bears too?

Here the Bears, coyotes, wolves and bobcats all prey on calf moose. They prey equally on deer fawns.
Kill the moose to save the caribou? That seems wrong on so many levels.

Osky

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by bobwayzie

Wow BC Wow.... Just cull the wolves.

X2
Where do they come up with this? Why don't they catch all the Salmon eating predators to save the Salmon!

BW

[fisher Gord]

they got the idea from Alberta

[waldedw]

You just can't make this shi$ up................... my god

[Nikanit]

Will just betcha that none of those people ever hunted a day in their life

[sourdough doug]

Originally Posted by Nikanit

Will just betcha that none of those people ever hunted a day in their life

We should not be throwing, too many stones....We ARE having the same
people infiltrating our hallowed halls as well.....ie..biologists, CO's..,hence
their name.

[outofbounds]

They have the same nonsense type thinking in Ontario.

Currently trying to ram the Caribou Mosaic down everybody's throats.

Decimate the moose population in WMU 21A by allocating ridiculously high cow tags for both archery and rifle seasons.

Moose count numbers do not support the tag allocations and the allocations grossly contradict there cow calf ratio for allocation policies.

Yet in order to save the 6 remaining Caribou on the Slate Islands they want to transform 1000's of hectares of landscape to appease these that remain.

The only reason these transplants remain is because Lake Superior does not freeze over to the island not allowing the wolves to clean up what is the last.

The dream is to allow the remaining to travel across the CPR tracks, trans canada hwy #17, hwy #11, 3 transmission line ROW corridors, TC energy pipline ROW then amongst hundreds of km of bush that is home to a very healthy wolf population to on a slim chance mate with the herd that calls the east shore of Lake Nipigon home.

We run two traplines in that area and can account for 8-15 wolves a year on average.

No way on earth will those 6 make the run across.

If they make it across the hwy that is.

The folks down in Peterborough had tried to ram this through it was only caught by Forest Management Plan renewals and obviously moose tag allocation spikes.

Altering reforestation policies to suit caribou management at the cost of the remaining.

The kicker is currently follks who look like they just fell out of the MEC catalog frolic with these 6 caribou as they camp and kayak amongst them on the Slate Islands.

If you google or youtube you can see people actually touching these Caribou as they share memories of these Caribou in their only sanctuary.

How will these caribou react if they do make it to main land with the previous interaction with humans for the last 10 years dont see them having a natural fear.

Yet the government wants to alter 1000's of hectares of landscape to save the 6.
If they in fact made it through this winter.

Similar groups are backing this as do western Caribou.
Mr.Butts and friends at WWF, Rockerfellers all seem to use the ungulate from the quarter to push their agenda which in most cases has nothing to do with the Caribou.

[Osky]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

X2
Where do they come up with this? Why don't they catch all the Salmon eating predators to save the Salmon!

BW

Have you noticed every animal with big teeth and a meat eating diet are the darlings of the new generation? The poor ungulates are just a lesser throw away animal.

Osky

[TimeOff]

Originally Posted by outofbounds

They have the same nonsense type thinking in Ontario.

Currently trying to ram the Caribou Mosaic down everybody's throats.

Decimate the moose population in WMU 21A by allocating ridiculously high cow tags for both archery and rifle seasons.

Moose count numbers do not support the tag allocations and the allocations grossly contradict there cow calf ratio for allocation policies.

Yet in order to save the 6 remaining Caribou on the Slate Islands they want to transform 1000's of hectares of landscape to appease these that remain.

The only reason these transplants remain is because Lake Superior does not freeze over to the island not allowing the wolves to clean up what is the last.

The dream is to allow the remaining to travel across the CPR tracks, trans canada hwy #17, hwy #11, 3 transmission line ROW corridors, TC energy pipline ROW then amongst hundreds of km of bush that is home to a very healthy wolf population to on a slim chance mate with the herd that calls the east shore of Lake Nipigon home.

We run two traplines in that area and can account for 8-15 wolves a year on average.

No way on earth will those 6 make the run across.

If they make it across the hwy that is.

The folks down in Peterborough had tried to ram this through it was only caught by Forest Management Plan renewals and obviously moose tag allocation spikes.

Altering reforestation policies to suit caribou management at the cost of the remaining.

The kicker is currently follks who look like they just fell out of the MEC catalog frolic with these 6 caribou as they camp and kayak amongst them on the Slate Islands.

If you google or youtube you can see people actually touching these Caribou as they share memories of these Caribou in their only sanctuary.

How will these caribou react if they do make it to main land with the previous interaction with humans for the last 10 years dont see them having a natural fear.

Yet the government wants to alter 1000's of hectares of landscape to save the 6.
If they in fact made it through this winter.

Similar groups are backing this as do western Caribou.
Mr.Butts and friends at WWF, Rockerfellers all seem to use the ungulate from the quarter to push their agenda which in most cases has nothing to do with the Caribou.

You tiptoe around the narrative. Decimating the ungulate pop will ensure those able to feed themselves will struggle. Controlling the food supply ensures compliance of the populace. Any hair-brained scheme that they can sell to the unwitting populace they will try. Those with common sense are more-so the endangered these days, and freedoms disappear with them.

[TimeOff]

I foresee with the way the economy imploding and perpetual welfare state they try to set up, due to latest events, it is a work to make everyone more dependant on the Gov't. Once they have enough control, then the freedoms disappear. Those of us who can fill our freezer will be outlawed at some point in the future.
I know it sounds crazy, but should be discussed in a serious manner.

[TimeOff]

Had a few beers before getting some dinner in my belly, sorry fella's. Went a little off tangent there.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

How will killing moose save caribou? That is a great question. The logic behind this goes as follows: wolves are a major predator for caribou and another staple of their diet is moose. The more moose we kill, the fewer wolves there will be and the more caribou we will save. So in order to save our caribou populations, the NDP have declared open season on moose calves and cows.

Collectively, you need to reject their official story as misleading, and replace it with the true narrative that clarifies the logic behind their plan. Namely:

We need to do something to protect the remaining caribou herds from predation, but we are too spineless to deal with the wild forest puppies and brother bear in a sensible manner. So, we have decided to sacrifice, and most likely waste, another species in the same area in the hope the predators will eventually starve to death before they can locate the remaining caribou herds.
This way, we won't be directly responsible for the deaths of the wild forest puppies. Starving to death in the wild is completely natural, remember the pictures of the starving polar bear a few years ago? It will be like that, but with the wild forest puppies.
We feel this is a better option than a quick death administered by an evil hunter or trapper. Since we control the social license to accomplish this endeavour, we firmly believe that you will agree with our plan to starve out the wild forest puppies and brother bear.

Push this truth until they break.

[Moosetalker]

That was the same thinking that they implemented along with heli shooting wolves{92 killed first winter 2005?} in an attempt to save the String Bog Little Smokey caribou herd.
Following year August 26 after a blown stalk by my son on a lol sausage bear. I tried a calf elk call in an attempt to get it to return, instead had a large black wolf show up sadly stayed just out of bow shot.

Looks like that never stopped the herd's decline.

Now they have a birthing pen in an attempt to segregate cows and calves from the predators The first season{2018} video at least stated 100% calf survival at least up until they release effectively doubling of the population. The head guy was constantly afraid a bear or other predator would get in and just decimate the captive herds calves.

Yukon pioneered darting and giving alpha male wolves a vasectomy slowing and/or stopping pack growth have not heard about how successful it has been.

[Dubious]

Start paying 1000$ Or 1 pri point per wolf head a see what happens.

[dave99]

This plan is completely nonsensical.

I asked a caribou biologist last year about it, after having heard that Alberta has adopted a similar caribou conservation philosophy. Here is what they explained to me:

According to them, historical moose and especially whitetail populations in the Grande Cache area were much lower than they have been in the last 40 years. I believe that whitetail are not even endemic to the area (someone please correct me if I am wrong on this).

They further explained that logging practices and the resulting secondary growth of grasses, willow and aspen allowed moose and deer populations to prosper and reach densities that had never before been realized. These high moose/deer densities supported a growing predator population. Bear, wolf, cougar benefitted greatly.

Caribou have struggled for a few reasons: higher predator density, habitat fragmentation from cut blocks, linear disturbances, and industrial noise/traffic, to which they appear to be more sensitive to than some other species. Apparently the big dams on the BC side such as Kinbasket Lake and the Mica dam have really parsed their traditional range.

Further, caribou appear (again, according to my source) to be poorly equipped to deal with predation: they are not as cagey as deer, and not nearly as strong and aggressive as moose in defending predatory attack. Their main defense against predation is their relatively low density on the landscape, despite being easier targets once located than deer or moose.



It appears that the BC government’s increased quota of cow/calf moose hopes help caribou by addressing the predator problem. Putting downward pressure on the total (ungulate) food supply hopes to result in a lower predator density on the landscape over time.

This is the most logical explanation I can come up with, since caribou do not compete with deer, elk or moose for forage. As many have said, a wolf has gotta eat, and so taking moose off the menu is not likely to cause them to starve, just change their eating habits, lol.

The government, both provincial and federal has a mandate to protect species at risk, as they should. I think that this misguided effort is doomed to fail, but they have to be able to show that at least they tried something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Big Grey Wolf]

The trappers in early 1900's in Prince George stated they had almost no moose but very high numbers of caribou. Eventually the moose population built up to high levels and preditor levels especially wolves followed. Their caribou numbers then went into the tank. Seems to be a direct relationship of moose/wolf and caribou pay biggest price for "Big Bad Wolf'.

[bobwayzie]

Is there a reason Caribou lives matter more than Moose lives? All ungulate lives matter.....


But for real why are caribou more important than moose to BC?

[Osky]

Originally Posted by dave99

This plan is completely nonsensical.

I asked a caribou biologist last year about it, after having heard that Alberta has adopted a similar caribou conservation philosophy. Here is what they explained to me:

According to them, historical moose and especially whitetail populations in the Grande Cache area were much lower than they have been in the last 40 years. I believe that whitetail are not even endemic to the area (someone please correct me if I am wrong on this).

They further explained that logging practices and the resulting secondary growth of grasses, willow and aspen allowed moose and deer populations to prosper and reach densities that had never before been realized. These high moose/deer densities supported a growing predator population. Bear, wolf, cougar benefitted greatly.

Caribou have struggled for a few reasons: higher predator density, habitat fragmentation from cut blocks, linear disturbances, and industrial noise/traffic, to which they appear to be more sensitive to than some other species. Apparently the big dams on the BC side such as Kinbasket Lake and the Mica dam have really parsed their traditional range.

Further, caribou appear (again, according to my source) to be poorly equipped to deal with predation: they are not as cagey as deer, and not nearly as strong and aggressive as moose in defending predatory attack. Their main defense against predation is their relatively low density on the landscape, despite being easier targets once located than deer or moose.



It appears that the BC government’s increased quota of cow/calf moose hopes help caribou by addressing the predator problem. Putting downward pressure on the total (ungulate) food supply hopes to result in a lower predator density on the landscape over time.

This is the most logical explanation I can come up with, since caribou do not compete with deer, elk or moose for forage. As many have said, a wolf has gotta eat, and so taking moose off the menu is not likely to cause them to starve, just change their eating habits, lol.

The government, both provincial and federal has a mandate to protect species at risk, as they should. I think that this misguided effort is doomed to fail, but they have to be able to show that at least they tried something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Some very interesting things here, I would like to add a caution if applicable:
In the late 70’s my SCI chapter helped fund the reintroduction of caribou to northern Minnesota. 30 animals. They were all dead in two years or so. Testing afterwards show they could not survive a parasite carried by whitetail deer in the area.
If your two ungulate ranges overlap, the caribou will be gone.
This was our experience here, perhaps this is known up there and if so my apologies for being redundant.

Osky

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Osky

Some very interesting things here, I would like to add a caution if applicable:
In the late 70’s my SCI chapter helped fund the reintroduction of caribou to northern Minnesota. 30 animals. They were all dead in two years or so. Testing afterwards show they could not survive a parasite carried by whitetail deer in the area.
If your two ungulate ranges overlap, the caribou will be gone.
This was our experience here, perhaps this is known up there and if so my apologies for being redundant.
Osky

I am not an expert on any of these topics so stand to be corrected by those with such knowledge.

I think, Osky, that you are talking about a brain worm. I don't think that it has been found in BC. Does anyone know for sure?

In any case, it seems to me that the caribou are in trouble because of habitat disruption and destruction. Their travel routes are interrupted by the whole myriad of roads and trails. Their habitual flora and living spaces have been destroyed in large patches by logging and dam building. Invasion by whitetail deer could be a factor as well. However, there is no going back on this destruction even in "Supernatural British Columbia" for those who remember the old slogan.

If too many wolves is the problem, it would be logical to reduce the wolf population directly by trapping or whatever culling method works best. Apart from the cost-benefit ratio for these efforts, the political climate mitigates against it.

If we are reduced to managing caribou by killing moose to starve wolves, I think the caribou are doomed.

[hawk-i]

|Yep ... university makes you smarter-er....LOL

[K.J]

Sounds typical of any government these days when it comes to making decisions. None of them can see the forest because of all the trees..

[Deemoss]

If I was a wolf, and had options of Moose and Caribou, now that one is off the menu, I'll just focus more on the other since I have no other choices.

If they had any logic, it would be to kill more wolves, or increase the moose population (don't know how) to alleviate some pressure off of the Caribou population. That's my simple way of thinking but it's more logical than culling moose I think.

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

How will killing moose save caribou? That is a great question. The logic behind this goes as follows: wolves are a major predator for caribou and another staple of their diet is moose. The more moose we kill, the fewer wolves there will be and the more caribou we will save. So in order to save our caribou populations, the NDP have declared open season on moose calves and cows.

Needless to say, the logic is a bit flawed. Firstly, if wolves can’t find as many moose, won’t they just look for more caribou? Secondly, is this really the greatest option we have to protect the caribou? Killing calves and mothers? I am all for controlled game hunting, but I feel like we have so many more options available to protect our caribou populations and I am not the only one feels this way.

Thousands of British Columbians concerned about preserving moose populations as well as caribou have voiced their opposition to this announcement.

https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/opi...bou-1.24153859

The related Petition:

https://www.change.org/p/premier-joh...-horgan-s-plan

[HVA7mm]

Maybe those heading up the study and making the recommendations think that since moose are so much larger, maybe they're the ones killing and eating the caribou.

But I'm sure that if you shut down all industry/recreation and eliminate the moose population, the predators will simply give up and say "Caribou are way too easy to hunt, where's the sport in that. They're too dumb to survive on their own, let's just leave them alone. Time to move on, I have a pretty good hankering for some Charolais. Nah, too big. How bout some Angus? "

[Big Grey Wolf]

Some studies found in Alberta related to whitetail deer. When their numbers went up in Northern Boreal forest, the wolf population increased dramatically.
My simple theory on this I call the 'Big Mac' affect. A wolf pack with an empty stomach has a hard time catching a moose/elk and pulling it down. Grab a easy catch like a whitetail deer (Big Mac) you have calories to run anything down.
Wolves with extra deer calories can also run a lot of caribou to the happy hunting ground.

[JohninAB]

My understanding of the issue based on an Alberta perspective.

Man’s ever increasing footprint on the landscape, oil and gas, forestry and other developments have altered the landscape where moose and deer are now found in greater numbers in areas where they were not that common before. Also, this industrial activity has made access for predators easier in terms of roads, cut lines etc and also resulted in loss and fragmentation of preferred habitat for caribou.

Having more deer and moose in traditional caribou ranges means these areas can now support more predators plus when the caribou leave on migrations, predators still have an abundant food supply in the area so remain. As caribou are not as wary as deer or able to defend themselves like moose, they suffer exponentially from these increased predator populations.

Hence the targeted reduction in moose and deer populations in caribou areas.

The loss and fragmentation of habitat has also meant a lower carrying capacity for caribou further exasperating the issue.

The other scary factor is a piece of federal legislation known affectionately as SARA or the Species at Risk ACT. Under this legislation, if provinces cannot maintain caribou populations at a predetermined density/number, the federal government will step in and manage the herd. What that would mean for say the Little Smoky herd is that all industrial activity would/could be shutdown with in the caribou range which means the provincial government would/could be on the hook to pay compensation in the billions to the industrial users in the area. Also the impact on towns and businesses due to these shutdowns would/could be huge.

Sorry for the disjointed comment. Hope the points I was trying to make come across as intended.

[IronNoggin]

Jesse Zeeman of the BCWF:

Here is his latest "defense" of this matter on FaceBook:

"Are you a number 1 or a number 2?

1) "I want science-based wildlife management"

2) "No one should hunt mommies and baby moose"

If you find yourself thinking or saying number 2 at any time, you can't be a number 1.

If you eat meat you should recognize the steak you buy in the store is from 18 months old 'baby' steers and heifers, the pork you buy is from a 6 months old pig, meat chickens live 6-9 weeks, and finally the eggs you eat are, well eggs.

The fish you catch and the ones you buy are mommies, daddies, and babies, the halibut and cod you buy in stores are often 'babies', and for a number of species you hunt/trap it is extremely hard to separate the differences in sex. So whether you buy your meat or hunt and fish for it, you eat 'mommies and babies'.

If you find yourself in the number two camp, but you're eating or buying steak, pork, eggs, fish, bears, deer, or moose, it's time for a reality check.

You should also consider, if you were opposed to closing grizzly bear hunting and you said "we want science", and you're now saying "no one should hunt mommies and baby moose", you're in the same camp as the anti-hunting movement.

Hunters don't need enemies, when they have 'friends' like this."

I simply reacted with "NOT buying in Jesse".

Form your own opinions. I have, and am sticking by them.

Nog

[urban rednek]

Jesse Zeeman of the BCWF sounds just as slimy and underhanded as the fanatics that would create a survey question like the one shown below.
Through misdirection, they conveniently leave out any answer that would conflict with their narrative.
Gerald Butts would be proud.

Tell them you'll take: cull the predators and issue more moose tags in the appropriate zones for $200. Alex