Bighorn country park

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

If you want to go for a hike go to wilmore

nah, they let horses in there. The Siffleur is where folks should go to hike.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by bdub

And what's your point. You watched an ATV ride by a herd of elk. Yeah ok and we are to infer that's supposed to give us some deep insight into the effects of ATV access somehow. Your observation means nothing.

Easy there buckwheat. I'll tell you a little secret. Some of the pics I've been taking of animals, I rode right up to them. Guess what they didn't run away either, and your drivel means nothing.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Easy there buckwheat. I'll tell you a little secret. Some of the pics I've been taking of animals, I rode right up to them. Guess what they didn't run away either, and your drivel means nothing.

Again bud, the fact that you can take a picture of critters from the seat of your truck or quad doesn’t really mean anything special. No big secret. Everyones done it. Says nothing about the overall effects of atv access on hunting. I just don’t know what point your are trying to make. Congrats for getting some pics of critters. Thats awesome.

[Huk]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Easy there buckwheat. I'll tell you a little secret. Some of the pics I've been taking of animals, I rode right up to them. Guess what they didn't run away either, and your drivel means nothing.

Yah I've taken pics of elk from the road. ...I've also been 800 yards from a herd of elk on foot and had the wind switch and watched that herd haul ass into the next drainage. If you'd ridden up to where I was standing on your quad you'd have been staring at the beautiful scenery instead of glassing up elk cuz they would have been LONG gone.

[Huk]

Originally Posted by Husty

Whats your opinion on guys who use an OHV to get far back in the bush then hike around for game? I like to do that, but no way am I packing an elk out 20km to the nearest road on foot.. its not fun. I did that when I shot my bull elk 12km to the nearest road, it was a long, miserable night, with the old man helping me. What are your thoughts on the 'lazy' guys who use horses to get into the bush, now that its one of the only viable ways to get far back into these parks to haul out game? Do you think its fair they can use a horse to pack in and out game but guys who use OHV's are out of luck?

I know a guy that uses a helicopter for remote hunts in the states, now thats unfair

To me its about fair access to Crown-land.

Like I said, there's no problem with having areas where quads are fully allowed, or partially allowed. So long as there is sufficient area where they're prohibited.

The Bob Creek is like that. Designated trails all up the west side. During hunting season guys quad in, set up camp and pound the hills on foot. Nothing wrong with it, much respect to them. All of the north west corner, center and eastern side are off limits. It's a good mix. The side with quad access gets hammered and I can choose to hunt everywhere else. Everyone wins.

I have no problem with guys using horses. It's still tough work. Horses are not low maintenance. But the best thing about horses vs OHVs is they don't emit a loud obnoxious noise, so they are easy to coexist with in hunting season when I'm sharing the mountain with them. I've hunted the same elk as dudes that came in on horseback. It was great. I have no doubt that if they'd ridden OHVs up the ridge every morning nobody would have had the pleasure of staring at a massive herd of elk all weekend.

So long story short yeah I think it's fair to use horses as you aren't negatively impacting all the other dudes out there. Can't say the same for OHVs.

We definitely agree on the helicopter unless you're using it to fly into an otherwise inaccessible spot and staying for a week to hunt on foot. I have designs on a fly in Alaska caribou trip one day and I'd be lying if I said I thought it was unfair.

I had the heli option when I was living in New Zealand but it just felt like cheating. Every animal I shot on public land came out on foot and involved copious amounts of suffering, which is kind of how it's supposed to be in my view. I think the fact that I'm willing to pack heavy loads in gnarly terrain means I earned the right to hunt less pressured animals and I get a sense of pride from it.

I'm sure when you got done packing your bull 12 km you felt a massive sense of accomplishment, and as well you friggin should. You earned every bit of it.

[Huk]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

If you want to go for a hike go to wilmore

Or how about if you want to go rip around on your quad go to maclean creek, or the porcupine hills, or waiparous, or Indian graves, or racehorse creek, the entire 316 unit or the literally 100 other places you could go?

It's not an unreasonable request to ask for no OHV zones when they are allowed almost everywhere that isn't a park.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Huk

Like I said, there's no problem with having areas where quads are fully allowed, or partially allowed. So long as there is sufficient area where they're prohibited.

The Bob Creek is like that. Designated trails all up the west side. During hunting season guys quad in, set up camp and pound the hills on foot. Nothing wrong with it, much respect to them. All of the north west corner, center and eastern side are off limits. It's a good mix. The side with quad access gets hammered and I can choose to hunt everywhere else. Everyone wins.

I have no problem with guys using horses. It's still tough work. Horses are not low maintenance. But the best thing about horses vs OHVs is they don't emit a loud obnoxious noise, so they are easy to coexist with in hunting season when I'm sharing the mountain with them. I've hunted the same elk as dudes that came in on horseback. It was great. I have no doubt that if they'd ridden OHVs up the ridge every morning nobody would have had the pleasure of staring at a massive herd of elk all weekend.

So long story short yeah I think it's fair to use horses as you aren't negatively impacting all the other dudes out there. Can't say the same for OHVs.

We definitely agree on the helicopter unless you're using it to fly into an otherwise inaccessible spot and staying for a week to hunt on foot. I have designs on a fly in Alaska caribou trip one day and I'd be lying if I said I thought it was unfair.

I had the heli option when I was living in New Zealand but it just felt like cheating. Every animal I shot on public land came out on foot and involved copious amounts of suffering, which is kind of how it's supposed to be in my view. I think the fact that I'm willing to pack heavy loads in gnarly terrain means I earned the right to hunt less pressured animals and I get a sense of pride from it.

I'm sure when you got done packing your bull 12 km you felt a massive sense of accomplishment, and as well you friggin should. You earned every bit of it.

Helicopters are utilized on almost every hunt in the nwt for dalls
Only thing it’s done is open more opportunities because you can access areas that were not reachable
And you can target mature rams only since your opportunities have gone up
The sheep and goats are still there, they didn’t magically evaporate when they heard a chopper
The problem is that your risking an entire animals going sour because you want feel like a mountain man and haul it out on your back. Check your ego and man bun at the door! If you liked the way you did it in New Zealand than its pretty simple, just move back there and do it...

[LKILR]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Helicopters are utilized on almost every hunt in the nwt for dalls
Only thing it’s done is open more opportunities because you can access areas that were not reachable
And you can target mature rams only since your opportunities have gone up
The sheep and goats are still there, they didn’t magically evaporate when they heard a chopper
The problem is that your risking an entire animals going sour because you want feel like a mountain man and haul it out on your back. Check your ego and man bun at the door! If you liked the way you did it in New Zealand than its pretty simple, just move back there and do it...

I’ve packed out over a dozen bull elk out of the mountains on my back and never had one spoiled. It can be done. You choose the easy way of hunting that’s ok. You don’t need to judge the way other people hunt. You could check your own ego. Now go tear up the land with your ATV so you can make us all look bad. Thanx for your intelligent input on the subject.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by LKILR

I’ve packed out over a dozen bull elk out of the mountains on my back and never had one spoiled. It can be done. You choose the easy way of hunting that’s ok. You don’t need to judge the way other people hunt. You could check your own ego. Now go tear up the land with your ATV so you can make us all look bad. Thanx for your intelligent input on the subject.

I would suggest you take your own advice, not everyone can pack out an elk and not everyone tears up the land with ATV's that use them.

[LKILR]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I would suggest you take your own advice, not everyone can pack out an elk and not everyone tears up the land with ATV's that use them.

I’m not judging anyones way of hunting. If you need to use an ATV to get around or get your game out I’m fine with that. As long as no laws are broken in the process. Just because you bag an animal in a bad spot don’t give anyone the right to go off the trail cut trees make new trails etc etc. Gotta use your head and make judgement calls when pulling the trigger.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The sheep and goats are still there, they didn’t magically evaporate when they heard a chopper

No they don't disappear but they are affected negatively. It's no different than ATV's. You used to be able to quad into the alpine in the Castle and a ton of other areas. It has an effect on how sheep or goats use the habitat. There is no question.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/en...ion_report.pdf

[bdub]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The problem is that your risking an entire animals going sour because you want feel like a mountain man and haul it out on your back. Check your ego and man bun at the door!

Nope, tons of guys have proved you wrong.

Man bun haha. Love the mudslinging.

[Sooner]

Originally Posted by LKILR

I’ve packed out over a dozen bull elk out of the mountains on my back and never had one spoiled. It can be done. You choose the easy way of hunting that’s ok. You don’t need to judge the way other people hunt. You could check your own ego. Now go tear up the land with your ATV so you can make us all look bad. Thanx for your intelligent input on the subject.

With all due respect, I think it is safe to say most us us "slob or lazy" hunters who use atv's to get back away from the roads or to our wall tent camp area do not rip and tear while were going from A to B. Why would we make the trail worse? For as long as I have used my atv, I and I'm sure most hunters try to make the existing holes better buy throwing in logs, brush etc so we don't have to winch through crap.

This debate always throws the hunters who use an Atv as a tool into the rip and tear crowd. When I had an atv and rode for fun with friends, we still filled in bad holes to aid in our enjoyment. It is too bad the atv industry/crowd has morphed into who has the biggest HP and Tire lugs you can get. Then giver.

I feel the majority of the trouble with atv bans and restrictions comes from the rec crowd who just want to fling mud and see who can get the furthest into the skeg. Watch any Youtube vid. Meanwhile, us hunters who like to use the quad as a means of getting back somewhere take the hit. Used to be a real simple thought out there, tread lightly. That's long gone.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by LKILR

I’m not judging anyones way of hunting. If you need to use an ATV to get around or get your game out I’m fine with that. As long as no laws are broken in the process. Just because you bag an animal in a bad spot don’t give anyone the right to go off the trail cut trees make new trails etc etc. Gotta use your head and make judgement calls when pulling the trigger.

No one said you had to drive right up to a downed animal

What’s wrong with using an atv to haul in your camp and use it for hauling out game when you get it back to camp ?

[LKILR]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

No one said you had to drive right up to a downed animal

What’s wrong with using an atv to haul in your camp and use it for hauling out game when you get it back to camp ?

Nothing. I never said there was.

[charves]

I worry about how once difficult unique hunting opportunities is increasingly related to spending money to reduce the time in the field.
You can spend money to more easily get to a previously 'unreachable' location. Does unreachable mean not physically possible to EVER get there, or just not get there in a day or 2?
With planes and helicopters, locations that were once a far off dream of opportunity must now impose 24hr fly-in restriction rules.
Wouldn't it be cooler to be involved in a hunt that took a several days or possibly weeks just to get to where you want to hunt?
A big part of hunting for me is getting in and out of the hunt area itself.
If it's easy to get in and out, it dilutes the reward of the hunt experience for me (even if I don't kill an animal).
I'm not against using machines at all but think having no-go zones for those who want it should be in place everywhere.

[LKILR]

Originally Posted by Sooner

With all due respect, I think it is safe to say most us us "slob or lazy" hunters who use atv's to get back away from the roads or to our wall tent camp area do not rip and tear while were going from A to B. Why would we make the trail worse? For as long as I have used my atv, I and I'm sure most hunters try to make the existing holes better buy throwing in logs, brush etc so we don't have to winch through crap.

This debate always throws the hunters who use an Atv as a tool into the rip and tear crowd. When I had an atv and rode for fun with friends, we still filled in bad holes to aid in our enjoyment. It is too bad the atv industry/crowd has morphed into who has the biggest HP and Tire lugs you can get. Then giver.

I feel the majority of the trouble with atv bans and restrictions comes from the rec crowd who just want to fling mud and see who can get the furthest into the skeg. Watch any Youtube vid. Meanwhile, us hunters who like to use the quad as a means of getting back somewhere take the hit. Used to be a real simple thought out there, tread lightly. That's long gone.

I never called anyone slob or lazy. Some bad apples have spoiled it for the rest for sure. I can show you 50 ATV trails that did not exist back in the late eighties early nineties in one WMU. Some where made by hunters for sure. I’ve seen hunters on quads on the top of a mountain that only 10 years ago you could only walk up. But I guess it’s better hunting because all the sheep can be approached by quad without spooking ! Lol

[nimrod]

ttps://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/en...ion_report.pdf

for 1 this link is from 2000, and I would assume the bio's are all new first timers with there own agenda now,

Im all for some ATV use in the back country with respect, just don't make the whole province this way, is my feeling

[bdub]

Originally Posted by nimrod

ttps://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/en...ion_report.pdf

for 1 this link is from 2000, and I would assume the bio's are all new first timers with there own agenda now,

Did you read the paper?

Do you mean the authors of this particular paper are or were new first timers in their profession?

I did a fly in hunt with one of the authors into the Prophet River years back and the other I knew of from living in FSJ. I can assure you neither are were new timers in 2000.

[nimrod]

Originally Posted by bdub

Did you read the paper?

Do you mean the authors of this particular paper are or were new first timers in their profession?

I did a fly in hunt with one of the authors into the Prophet River years back and the other I knew of from living in FSJ. I can assure you neither are were new timers in 2000.

Well nine years later, lots of changes have happened in Alberta, I assume BC also has changed, possibly

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by nimrod

Well nine years later, lots of changes have happened in Alberta, I assume BC also has changed, possibly

Maybe these guys helped with the grizzly hunt situation in bc too

[bdub]

Originally Posted by nimrod

Well nine years later, lots of changes have happened in Alberta, I assume BC also has changed, possibly

So you haven't read it I take it.

Nothings changed, animal behavior doesn't really change that fast. Goats or sheep or elk react pretty much the same now as they did in 2000 bud.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Maybe these guys helped with the grizzly hunt situation in bc too

I am going to assume you are referring to the authors of the paper I posted. Why would you presume these guys have anything to do with the grizzly situation in BC other than to be ignorant. You have no idea at all who either person is, zero. That's a total offside comment.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by bdub

No they don't disappear but they are affected negatively. It's no different than ATV's. You used to be able to quad into the alpine in the Castle and a ton of other areas. It has an effect on how sheep or goats use the habitat. There is no question.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/en...ion_report.pdf

I don't think so! No comparison from aircraft to ATV's

[windsurf5522]

Your all going about this the wrong way, there wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't the amount of people who want to use the areas. What happens when all these restrictions don't work in the future when there are more and more people who want to use the area? Ban the area to everyone? Also I see way more damage done buy the thousands of horses out there (yes I said thousands not hundreds), what about them? Why doesn't anyone see that the problem is population lets do something about that, then all the worlds problems will be solved. Stop having kids and letting more and more people into this great country, because if we don't this country wont be so great anymore.

[katts69]

Windsurf,
Your telling me a horse or group of horses does the same damage as a guy with big lugged tires in 4 wheel drive OHV??
I don’t own horses but have done a few trips with them. Besides where the trail is a little soft you can hardly tell a horse was there.
I do agree that there is to many people
And no matter what happens the guys that don’t like to walk are not going to be happy.

[st99]

Originally Posted by katts69

Windsurf,
Your telling me a horse or group of horses does the same damage as a guy with big lugged tires in 4 wheel drive OHV??
I don’t own horses but have done a few trips with them. Besides where the trail is a little soft you can hardly tell a horse was there.
I do agree that there is to many people
And no matter what happens the guys that don’t like to walk are not going to be happy.

What I suggested at the AFGA meetings is to regulate ATV tire size and lug depth. As expected most users are too selfish to be pro active and the government isn't smart enough to act before it's too late and end up banning things as last resort, everyone loose in the long run.

[Smoky buck]

Restrictioning large parts of the backcountry doesn’t solve the problems it only moves it to another area. Education and enforcement is how you solve issues

[oiler_nation]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Restrictioning large parts of the backcountry doesn’t solve the problems it only moves it to another area. Education and enforcement is how you solve issues

Why does it have to be a choice between restricting access or enforcement?

What is so wrong with increasing enforcement in the areas ATV's are allowed, while at the same time creating a few more areas set aside for rustic recreation where a guy can hike or ride or bike without the constant whine of engines?

Leave certain areas for guys like you and Mark who like to ride around looking for animals and leave other areas accessible to non-motorized users. You could even choose to park the quad and hunt those too if you wanted. I don't judge a guy for wanting to legally hunt from his ATV (I own one too), but the reality is that unlike horses, foot access, paddlers, etc. motorized users effect everyone else's experience in a way that other users don't simply by the noise they make. I believe in a multiple use concept, but that does not mean that reasonable restrictions cannot be established. There are more and more people in the province every decade and many of us own ATVs. As development and access is opened up the ability to access formerly remote country will become easier (it already has). Whether you are young, old, fat, healthy, fit, lazy, disabled etc. everyone will be able to get back there. That may sound egalitarian, but it comes with many unintended consequences (habitat destruction, tag allocations etc.). I disagreed with much of the NDP proposal (particularly back-country development in the Castle and Bighorn), but I hope the Conservatives don't throw the baby out with the bath water either. The status quo is not sustainable, and I often question the agendas of individuals (pro or con ATV restriction) who can't take a nuanced approach to a nuanced issue.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by oiler_nation

Why does it have to be a choice between restricting access or enforcement?

What is so wrong with increasing enforcement in the areas ATV's are allowed, while at the same time creating a few more areas set aside for rustic recreation where a guy can hike or ride or bike without the constant whine of engines?

Leave certain areas for guys like you and Mark who like to ride around looking for animals and leave other areas accessible to non-motorized users. You could even choose to park the quad and hunt those too if you wanted. I don't judge a guy for wanting to legally hunt from his ATV (I own one too), but the reality is that unlike horses, foot access, paddlers, etc. motorized users effect everyone else's experience in a way that other users don't simply by the noise they make. I believe in a multiple use concept, but that does not mean that reasonable restrictions cannot be established. There are more and more people in the province every decade and many of us own ATVs. As development and access is opened up the ability to access formerly remote country will become easier (it already has). Whether you are young, old, fat, healthy, fit, lazy, disabled etc. everyone will be able to get back there. That may sound egalitarian, but it comes with many unintended consequences (habitat destruction, tag allocations etc.). I disagreed with much of the NDP proposal (particularly back-country development in the Castle and Bighorn), but I hope the Conservatives don't throw the baby out with the bath water either. The status quo is not sustainable, and I often question the agendas of individuals (pro or con ATV restriction) who can't take a nuanced approach to a nuanced issue.

Rarely use an atv out side of plowing snow. I think I have used an atv for hunting under a dozen times. For hunting I prefer to be on foot in the bush and have done my fair share of backpack hunts

I am far from an atv guy but I respect the responsible use of ATVs. I only have issues with those who tear up streams and off trail areas. Laws and enforcement to protect habitat from ATV abuse I am 100% behind

But to push out ATV users because you don’t like the noise and the affect your experience I will not support. It is no different then the hiker or bird watchers that want hunters out because we impact thier experience I will not support them either

Really think about it when you point a finger at another saying you want them out of the bush because they affect your experience because there is others out there that can do the same to you.

Outdoorsman need to learn to get along or there won’t be anyone to stand behind you when you need it