First Rifle

[fallen1817]

Hey Everyone,

After looking over the Coyote hunting thread for the past two hours, I'm rather anxious about getting my first rifle. I would like to know...

1. What was your first rifle? I AM keeping in mind that some of you were born before rifles (This being said in good fun, of course)
2. What would you recommend for my first rifle?

My price range is Under $1000, including scope. Not picky if it's a package deal or not, as I have limited knowledge on the technical aspect of firearms and scopes. I'll likely upgrade the scope.

Thanks for your feedback! After I have a few answers I'll go to a few shops around here and "cope a feel on some rifles." See how they feel to me.

-Jeff

[pikergolf]

If it's coyotes your after Savage model 11 or model 10 predator in either .22-250 or .243 and a bushnell 2300 in 3-9 or 4-12 should come in at well under 1000. They also make a combo with both those rifles but I think the scopes are a little weak. I think in the long run you'll save money buying separate and getting the scope you want. The bushnell is by no means the only one at that price although it is a good value. Personally I bought a Cabel's alaskan guide 4.5-14 which I think is the best value ever, unfortunately they don't sell them in Canada any more.

[fallen1817]

Should have mentioned before, I will be targeting deer, and possibly elk. And of course coyotes on the side. I've looked into the Savage edge and Weatherby Vanguard. I am thinkin .30-06, as it's a pretty cheap cartridge, and that's what a student needs

Thanks for the feedback

[pikergolf]

Might be able to pick up a used 3006 for a decent price, I would try to get a Stevens before the Savage edge. Stevens is basically a savage without the accutrigger.

[220swifty]

270 is another round to look at, as it will give you all you need for the bigger animals, while perhaps being a bit more gentle with the coyotes.
$1000 is a decent budget for a rifle, I would go for something stainless and put good glass on it. Think along the lines of a Remington 700 SPS and a Redfield Revolution 2-7x33 or 3-9x40.


I started out with a 243 as my first centerfire, and still use it from time to time, and if you cut elk and moose out, it is a great first gun.

[eric2381]

If it was me, I'd find a quality used rifle/scope package. 270,280,30-06. They'll all work well.

I have a rifle I'd sell you. PM me if your interested.

[H380]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

270 is another round to look at, as it will give you all you need for the bigger animals, while perhaps being a bit more gentle with the coyotes.
$1000 is a decent budget for a rifle, I would go for something stainless and put good glass on it. Think along the lines of a Remington 700 SPS and a Redfield Revolution 2-7x33 or 3-9x40.


I started out with a 243 as my first centerfire, and still use it from time to time, and if you cut elk and moose out, it is a great first gun.

Like you Swifty , I started out with the 243 and now use a 270 .. both will do thesame job as you say . However F1817 if I was to buy a diferrent caliber to use on deer AND elk and moose I would go with something with a little more beef , such as a 300 WIN . MAG or WSM ,, Having said that they will all kill coyotes tho at some what bigger price on ammo and fur , but they aren't worth skinning anyway ...as has been said before , it's better to not go under gunned and don't skimp on the optics .

[220swifty]

I think it would be wiser for a rookie shooter to buy a rifle he can shoot extensively before he ever hunts with it. The 270 will be more feasable to do this with both recoil wise and ammo cost wise. I am willing to bet that a bull elk will drop alot faster with a well placed premium 270 round than a poorly placed 300 mag bullet.

That being said, I shoot a 300 Ultra Mag, a 375 Ruger and a recently aquired 458 win mag. Recoil is something you can learn to tolerate, but not to be taken lightly with a new shooter.

[borchy]

Shoot whatever feels well, if possible try a few different rifles. All of the mentioned calibres will work well. The biggest thing is shot placement. Practice until you are comfortable. My first was a 270.

[rugatika]

Under a thousand bucks...easy.

Winchester model 70 featherweight (they aren't really all that light), and a bushnell 3200 elite 3-9x40 scope.

fwt - $729
scope - $230
rings - $80

OK...maybe a tad over a thousand with taxes but it's a rifle that will be with you forever and can be handed down and you may be able to find some better pricing with some shopping around. These are wss prices, prohet river will likely have some better pricing.

[Homesteader]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

270 is another round to look at, as it will give you all you need for the bigger animals, while perhaps being a bit more gentle with the coyotes.

Agreed, since Elk is included on the menu, although I'm not sure it will be any more "gentle" on coyotes . It will certainly be a tad flatter, and easier on the operator though.

[rugatika]

And just because I had to look for myself--

Comparing Hornady Light Magnum loads:

.270
140gr. Boattail Spire Point Light Magnum
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.486
Sectional Density: 0.261
Muzzle: 3100fps, 2987ftlbs., -1.5"
100: 2900fps, 2614ftlbs, +1.3"
200: 2709fps, 2280ftlbs., 0.00"
300: 2525fps, 1982ftlbs, -6.10"
400: 2349fps, 1715ftlbs., -17.60"
500: 2180fps, 1477ftlbs., -35.40"

Now, I first compared this to the .30-06 150gr. Spire Point Light Mag (which is what I happen to shoot).

.30-06
150gr Spire Point Light Magnum
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.338
Sectional Density: 0.226
Muzzle: 3100fps, 3200ftlbs., -1.50"
100: 2815fps, 2639ftlbs., +1.50"
200: 2548fps, 2161ftlbs., 0.00"
300: 2295fps, 1754ftlbs., -6.80"
400: 2057fps, 1410ftlbs, -20.30"
500: 1835fps, 1121ftlbs., -42.00"

So as we can see, in this comparison, the .270 trails initially behind the '06 SLIGHTLY in energy and retained velocity, but quickly catches and slightly exceeds the '06.

NOW....since I thought about this some more, I realized that the 140gr. .277 bullet was a "step up" from the more standard 130gr bullet. And the bal. coefficients and sectional densities tell the tale that the 150gr. .308 bullet isn't in the same class as the 140gr. .277 bullet. So I then compared the 165gr. .308 bullet (same bullet except for caliber and weight).

Here's the 165gr '06 data:

.30-06
165gr Boattail Spire Point, Light Magnum
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.435
Sectional Density: 0.248
Muzzle: 3015fps, 3330ftlbs., -1.50"
100: 2796fps, 2864ftlbs., +1.50"
200: 2588fps, 2453ftlbs., 0.00"
300: 2389fps, 2090ftlbs, -6.70"
400: 2199fps, 1771ftlbs., -19.50"
500: 2017fps, 1490ftlbs., -39.50"

Now we have much more similar bullets, proportionally. And looking at those statistics, the two run virtually neck and neck throughout the 500 yard trajectory that's been calculated. The '06 is generally hitting a hair harder, but the .270's generally flying a hair faster. None of the differences are really significant in any way for our purposes. The biggest difference, I think, is the 4" difference in impact point at 500yds. To put that in perspective, that's less than a minute-of-angle at that distance. And it's nothing that the proper knowledge of your round's ballistics wouldn't negate.

So there you have it, as per Hornady's loadings, arguably the most potent factory rounds on the market at the moment.

And it leaves us where we were before....I will keep on hunting with my trusty .30-06, killing deer cleanly and regularly. The .270 folks will likely do the same.

http://forums.basspro.com/cgi-bin/ul...5;t=002841;p=2

Borrowed this from another blog...some interesting comparisons between the 270 and 30/06...essentially the same although I would add the 30/06 gives you a wider range of bullets to select from. Either or...both good choices.

[220swifty]

Originally Posted by Homesteader

Agreed, since Elk is included on the menu, although I'm not sure it will be any more "gentle" on coyotes . It will certainly be a tad flatter, and easier on the operator though.

When i said a bit, I meant a very little bit.

[rsako]

don't overlook the shorter cartridges like the 7mm-08.

I shoot a .270 sako TRG-S (they don't make it anymore) and have been for over 18 years. It has taken countless animals. I reload and use proper bullets for the task at hand. I'd put it up against any game animal in North America with me behind the trigger...'cept in grizz country...I prefer a fast action big boar...like a sloppy 12 gauge with slugs :-)

Back to the 7mm-08. its a short cartridge based on the .308 which is a great round also. Both work very well...all the way up to moose at respectable ranges with the right bullet choice. learn how to shoot well...that's the key.

My son shoots a 7mm-08 and we reload for it as well. Get a Savage with a Redfield...and use the rest of your cash to reload it

you'll have it for decades.

[fallen1817]

Went to Wholesale Sports the other day and shouldered a few guns. I've decided on .270 or .30-06, but am torn between a few guns.

Saw the Weatherby Vanguard Package, which seems like good value for the price.

The best feeling gun Was the Tikka T3 Laminate, however its a bit beyond my price range, and I can't justify that amount for my first rifle.

There were a few Savage Rifles that I really liked (16FXP3, 11FXP3)

I also asked to see a Remington 700, which was cheaper than I thought it would be, and felt pretty good. I also held the Browning A bolt, which is a fine rifle IMO.

Anyone have an opinion on these rifles?

-Jeff

[Marlin xl7]

You probably handled the 700 SPS? If so go back and look at one of the threads discussing them, STAY AWAY. The vanguards are good rifles, the triggers on them have a reputation of being bad, but for a first it'll do good. The scope is also low end, but will work until you can buy a better one. The savages have a reputation of being extremely accurate, out of the box. If it has the accutrigger, it'll be amazing. And the Browning, well, simply great.

May I suggest another rifle? The Marlin XL7 in 270 or 30-06, pillar bedded, pro-fire trigger (accutrigger), great recoil pad. Mine in 270 is extremely accurate. Buying this marlin will also leave you with around $600 for a GREAT scope.

[JordanMcilvride]

Ask for a Thompson Center Venture. Nice all around gun or really nice quality I find for a first gun at a very reasonable price... I picked one up for $700 two years ago but I think they have gone down in price. Are you in Edmonton? If so, shoot me a PM

[wolf308]

weatherby.......NOOOOOOOO!

[jpohlic]

Here's another vote for a 7mm-08, and I just happen to know where there is one for sale... it's taken everything from deer to moose.

[Lomondk]

If you went with a stevens/savage in 30-06 I don't think you'd every be regretting your choice. Lots of guys have had complaints with remington (that being said a lot more guys love them) the same can be said for the weatherby. The only complaint I've heard about the savage/stevens rifles is that they can be a little ugly... and the tupperware stock on the stevens. They shoot great and for something basic that you can build on(add a better stock, a new trigger, ect..) they are really easy to find components for.
For a Scope you should look at Vortex, I've just bought my third one and they are great! Clear enough it almost hurts your eyes on a sunny day, and if you go with a Vortex Diamondback you can get a really great scope for under $300.
WSS has some in but if you really want to look at all that vortex offers and get it cheaper the WSS go to Natures Corner Store in Edmonton (its a fish and birdwatching store that sells rifle scopes...go figure)

[fallen1817]

Originally Posted by wolf308

weatherby.......NOOOOOOOO!

Do you own one/owned one in the past? I'm keeping my mind open and have heard great things about the vanguard.

[Cal]

My first gun was a 30-30 and it was about the best first gun one could have IMO. Cheap to shoot, easy on the shoulder, and drops a deer out to 200 yards works on moose at half that in a pinch.

I now shoot a .270 and its a realy good round. It handles everything from big timber moose and deer to farm land mulies very well without having to change loads which is what I feel is its strength over some of the other popular rounds that people like to compare it to. It is not gentle on coyotes, doesnt realy seem to matter what bullet you use it just demolishes them. I think its kind of the same effect you get when you shoot a milk jug full of water, just hits them with more shock than their little bodies can contain.

I have a ruger m77 and its a great gun, other good options in your price range are the Weatherby Vangaurd and the Winchester M70 which was already mentioned.

[220swifty]

[QUOTE=Marlin xl7;856610]You probably handled the 700 SPS? If so go back and look at one of the threads discussing them, STAY AWAY.

\QUOTE]



Are you sure you are not thinking of the 710/770? the SPS is a 700 with less effort put into the finishing details than a BDL or CDL. Mechanically, they are no different than the higher end models.

I own an SPS in 300 RUM, and have put around 100 rds through it with no issues. Another thing for you to look at with the 700 is the available aftermarket support. You can get the SPS and hunt it plain jane for a year or two, and as your tastes are refined, you can get a better stock for it, swap out the trigger, and do most anything your heart desires. Other manufacturers make this possible, but Remington 700's are kinda like 10/22's and 1911's, as they are the most commonly customized bolt gun out there, and there is a whack of aftermarket options for it.

[TUFFBUFF]

Ruger hawkeye stainless in 280 rem with a Burris fullfield 3-9x40mm is my pick, rifle comes with the rings and the scope is good for the price - should be close to the 1k range when your done.
I picked one up in 7mm-08 for the wife but if I only had 1 rifle and was after elk a little more the little extra jam of the 280 will help, 140-160 grain bullets.
everyone picks the 270 30-06 - 280 is in between if your undecided, sometimes it's a little fun to be different!

[Marlin xl7]

[QUOTE=220swifty;857796]

Originally Posted by Marlin xl7

You probably handled the 700 SPS? If so go back and look at one of the threads discussing them, STAY AWAY.

\QUOTE]



Are you sure you are not thinking of the 710/770? the SPS is a 700 with less effort put into the finishing details than a BDL or CDL. Mechanically, they are no different than the higher end models.

I own an SPS in 300 RUM, and have put around 100 rds through it with no issues. Another thing for you to look at with the 700 is the available aftermarket support. You can get the SPS and hunt it plain jane for a year or
two, and as your tastes are refined, you can get a better stock for it, swap out the trigger, and do most anything your heart desires. Other manufacturers
make this possible, but Remington 700's are kinda like 10/22's and 1911's, as they are the most commonly customized bolt gun out there, and there is a
whack of aftermarket options for it.

I know all about the 770's, COMPLETE GARBAGE. I'm not saying that all SPS rifles are bad, but the few I have come in contact with have left a lot to be desired. But you are right, the SPS is perfect for building a rifle. But for his first rifle, I think there are better rifles in the same price range.

[fallen1817]

I have it narrowed down between the Marlin XL7C (I priced it out, and it'll come out to just over $700), The weatherby Vanguard Combination package (Approx. $659 From Pud at Bashaw Sports), or a savage (11FXP3 or 16FXP3).

I haven't handled the Marlin yet, but I really like the looks of it, have read plenty of great reviews, and it looks like what I am looking for.

My question now, is what are the major differences between .270 and .30-06? I was leaning towards a .30-06, but have heard it has more kick. But is the .270 much weaker? I'm VERY inexperienced with the aspect of Kinetic energy and velocity and all of those ballistics. Does a .270 have the takedown power for elk (Knowing that a properly placed shot will drop damn near anything)? Being my first rifle, It will take alot of range time to get to my standard of shooting, and I plan on hunting for many years with this gun, for many species. Mainly deer, but the potential of elk and moose, with coyotes and wolves on the side.

Just want to make sure I'm not undergunned. The fellow I spoke with at WSS insisted that a .270 was just enough for deer, and would not be capable of any elk. But, he also handed me the guns barrel first pointed at me, which I did not like...

-Jeff

THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP!

[jimbo1]

i asked the same question a while ago and everyone told me that the 270 was plenty of gun for elk and moose! i just cant wait to get to grips with them next season and yeah i wouldnt like that either buddy you should NEVER point a firearm at anyone

[elkhunter11]

You probably handled the 700 SPS? If so go back and look at one of the threads discussing them, STAY AWAY.

The SPS are simply not finished as well as the higher end 700s, they tend to be a good rifle, for a reasonable price. I for one, would take a 700SPS over a Savage or a Marlin XL7.

[fallen1817]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The SPS are simply not finished as well as the higher end 700s, they tend to be a good rifle, for a reasonable price. I for one, would take a 700SPS over a Savage or a Marlin XL7.

it was a pretty nice feeling rifle, however they all felt pretty good. The best feeling one was the Tikka T3 Laminate

A tad expensive...

[pa_of_6]

Here is some reading for you.

I have a 270 and it is my first center fire rifle.

It has an old Weaver 4x scope.

It is an old Remington 721 (predecessor of the Rem model 700)

I just recently replaced the stock with a Rem 700 stock with checkering and the black forearm piece.

My kid thought it was a new rifle.

I traded it for a chainsaw I picked up at a farm auction (Paid 100$ for the chainsaw...but hey, it was a John Deere Chainsaw.)

Shoots great. I am just in the process of reloading for it now and having alot of fun with that.

But...Here is an article that you may wanna read.

But either 30.06 or .270 would work the same....dead is dead.

http://montanaelkhunting.blogspot.co...k-hunting.html