Legal or not?

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

This was discussed in another thread. You can't imagine the s***storm that was started when someone said that if you put your weapon in your vehicle that you are not hunting. You can hunt without a weapon.

(2) A person shall not be regarded as having hunted a subject
animal
(a) for the purposes of subsection (1)(o)(ii), if
(i) the person was not carrying a weapon, and
(ii) the purpose of the person’s activity was restricted to
watching, photographing, drawing or painting a
picture of the animal,

Basically, you need to be painting a picture of the animal in order to not be hunting.

Every law is written for a reason For the life of me, I don't understand the purpose behind that one.

I really wish that 'tracking' shot animals was dealt with clearly in the regs

...lol...interpatation

Since your are tracking or following a blood trail it is HIGHLY unlikely you will be using a vehicle...if the weapon is in a case locked up in your truck a half mile from you...I think it safe to say you are NOT hunting...

NOW...since the law /regs also read ..."It is illegal/Unlawful to abandon, destroy or allow the edible meat of any game bird or big game animal (except cougar or bear), to become unfit for human consumption

IT IS YOUR OBLIGATION to follow up on that bloodtrail at night!!! and make best attempt on recovery...

lol...true

Neil

[Big Sky]

Originally Posted by L.O.S.T.Arrow

...lol...interpatation

Since your are tracking or following a blood trail it is HIGHLY unlikly you will be using a vehicle...if the wepon is in a case locked up in your track a half mile from you...I think it safe to say you are NOT hunting...

NOW...since the law /regs also read ..."It is illegal/Unlawful to abandon, destroy or allow the edible meat of any game bird or big game animal (except cougar or bear), to become unfit for human consumption

IT IS YOUR OBLIGATION to follow up on that bloodtrail at night!!! and make best attempt on recovery...

lol...true

Neil

That is my whole point. ( or at least some of it.)

You read the laws and interpret them to mean that you can track at night.

Another person can read them and interpret them to read that you can't let the meat go to waste, but you have to wait until morning to go get it, because you can't hunt at night.

I read them and see it as ambiguous and in need of being clarified.

Again, I go find my animal in the dark as I feel it is the ethical thing to do. Just not sure of the legality.

BTW I don't quite get what you mean by "Since your are tracking or following a blood trail it is HIGHLY unlikely you will be using a vehicle"

Perhaps I wasn't clear on what was said in another thread. The person said that if you go back to your vehicle and put your weapon away, then track on foot, that you are not hunting. S***storm followed.

I appreciate your input.

[Bowie]

Ok. Now let's assume your not road hunting and your a few km's from your vehicle and need to track that animal...... Do you walk back to the truck. Drop off your gun and now head back looking for the animal and hope another predator hasn't also been tracking that animal. Now you are without anything to protect yourself with

[SCHOOCH]

Its AO of course a s***s***m happened LOL......its kinda funny how people have the need to argue everything, keeps me entertained anyways. How many shows have you watched that are filmed in Alberta with the Hunter/Host getting to the animal in pitch black with the weapon in hand whether its a bow or gun and lay it across the animal for the photo op....i guess they break the law non stop. It has been a good discussion here and i would really like to hear how that camera works out for you Nelson.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Ok. Now let's assume your not road hunting and your a few km's from your vehicle and need to track that animal...... Do you walk back to the truck. Drop off your gun and now head back looking for the animal and hope another predator hasn't also been tracking that animal. Now you are without anything to protect yourself with

Thats a if it bothers you wait till first light thing...however I have seen moose and elk spoil overnight during bow season...

Neil

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

That is my whole point. ( or at least some of it.)

You read the laws and interpret them to mean that you can track at night.

Another person can read them and interpret them to read that you can't let the meat go to waste, but you have to wait until morning to go get it, because you can't hunt at night.

I read them and see it as ambiguous and in need of being clarified.

Again, I go find my animal in the dark as I feel it is the ethical thing to do. Just not sure of the legality.

BTW I don't quite get what you mean by "Since your are tracking or following a blood trail it is HIGHLY unlikely you will be using a vehicle"

Perhaps I wasn't clear on what was said in another thread. The person said that if you go back to your vehicle and put your weapon away, then track on foot, that you are not hunting. S***storm followed.

I appreciate your input.

lol...dont read me wrong wasnt argueing your point..and was agreeing to a point ...

The "Since your are tracking or following a blood trail it is HIGHLY unlikely you will be using a vehicle"

Meant you are not going to follow a bloodtrail with your pickup...
Sometimes the intrupitation can be also different between two Wildlife Officers...as you say be nice to see it in writing...

I was told by a senior Wildlife Officer...its not hunting if you dont have a weapon...unless you are perhaps trying to run the critters off cliffs in the dark...lol

Neil

[CNP]

Originally Posted by L.O.S.T.Arrow

lol...dont read me wrong wasnt argueing your point..and was agreeing to a point ...

The "Since your are tracking or following a blood trail it is HIGHLY unlikely you will be using a vehicle"

Meant you are not going to follow a bloodtrail with your pickup...
Sometimes the intrupitation can be also different between two Wildlife Officers...as you say be nice to see it in writing...

I was told by a senior Wildlife Officer...its not hunting if you dont have a weapon...unless you are perhaps trying to run the critters off cliffs in the dark...lol

Neil

It is not hunting when you are walking in the dark, to your stand, with a bow either. Don't we go out in the dark and wait for the legal hour and come out in the dark after legal hour? Having a bow or firearm in your possession, in the dark, doesn't mean you are hunting in the dark. And the whole tracking thing, looking for an animal that you have shot, is not really tracking for the purpose of hunting, you are looking for a dead animal that you shot during legal hours. Not looking for an animal that you are going to shoot. If you have no intent to seek and shoot at an animal you aren't really doing anything wrong. Reading too much into this.......there can't be wording in the regs to describe all possible scenarios. The fewer words in the regs the better IMO. Guys start asking too many questions and demanding too many answers from SRD and all of a sudden you have to have your bow in a case when you go into your stand/out of your stand in the dark. That is how they play it out in Ontario.......maybe other provinces? We don't have to wear orange or case our bows/rifles in AB (except when passing through wildlife corridors). I like our regs as they are.

[Big Sky]

Originally Posted by Bowie

Ok. Now let's assume your not road hunting and your a few km's from your vehicle and need to track that animal...... Do you walk back to the truck. Drop off your gun and now head back looking for the animal and hope another predator hasn't also been tracking that animal. Now you are without anything to protect yourself with

In country where large predators live, I carry bear spray. I hope I never have to test its effectiveness.

As for the tracking part, I think that most guys who are a couple km back would just continue tracking.
But, are they hunting?

[BuckMaster101]

I've tracked a moose until two in the morning North of Athabsca with wolfs and Bears all over. No way that would of happened without a rifle For protection. Sometimes you have to think for yourself, a fish cop is going to know pretty quick if your tracking a wounded animal or just hunting at night.

[SCHOOCH]

Originally Posted by BuckMaster101

I've tracked a moose until two in the morning North of Athabsca with wolfs and Bears all over. No way that would of happened without a rifle For protection. Sometimes you have to think for yourself, a fish cop is going to know pretty quick if your tracking a wounded animal or just hunting at night.

^^^^^^^^ EXACTLY.......just leave the 1000 candle spotlight at home LOL

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

Agreed, and they say that you cannot hunt at night.
Hunting is also defined. They don't use the word 'tracking' but say "search for" and "follow after".
Putting the two together I come up with the conclusion that you can't track at night.

Note: I'm not arguing with anyone, just looking for discussion. I find this regulation and a few other related regulations to be written in a very broad manner. In this case, I see a big difference between tracking an animal that has been shot and one that has not been shot. The regulations don't make the distinction. (To avoid the derail, a person might track an 'unshot' animal in the dark if they cut a track in the snow while walking in in the A.M. If a person chose to follow that track prior to legal light, I would assume that they are hunting in the dark. Personally, I would not follow that track. Anyway, back to the actual topic.)

Lots of people will track a shot animal in the dark. I do it. I believe it is the ethical thing to do. But I still wonder about the legality. I sometime think that people just turn a blind eye to this question.

I wish the regs were explicit on this topic.

Interesting perspective that has me reconsidering my earlier comment. I will call a CO friend and ask his opinion.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Its all like the 2000 page rule and employee/employer contract union book ...you go thru all the book and on the last page in small print it states
"OR at the discretion of employer"

As it states on the second page of the hunting Regs..."This pamphlet is neither a legal document nor a complete listing of Alberta Hunting Regulations"

So It's a lot at the discretion of the wildlife Officer and/or circumstances...

Neil

[LA_bowhunter]

Interesting discussion. Just because you have a weapon outside of legal light doesn't mean you are hunting and its not illegal. If you are tracking an animal in the dark...be sure there is an obvious blood trail otherwise it will look like hunting. Use common sense folks.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by BuckMaster101

I've tracked a moose until two in the morning North of Athabsca with wolfs and Bears all over. No way that would of happened without a rifle For protection. Sometimes you have to think for yourself, a fish cop is going to know pretty quick if your tracking a wounded animal or just hunting at night.

Then according to the firearms regulations you could be charge with 86(2) for careless use of a firearm

15. An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

Since you can not legally discharge at night you can not legally load it. Walk around with an unloaded on all you want but might prove ineffective for defense.

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Then according to the firearms regulations you could be charge with 86(2) for careless use of a firearm

15. An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

Since you can not legally discharge at night you can not legally load it. Walk around with an unloaded on all you want but might prove ineffective for defense.

Never been to a hunting camp when (at night) a loaded defender (or equivalent) is not kept within reach and/or slept with.

Sometimes these 'what if' propositions get us away from reality. Some officer turned up at our camp and made that argument then he would be laughed at. In Scotland its still unlawful to have oral s_x with your wife on New Years Eve.

[Big Sky]

Good to go if it's not your wife?

Loopholes, loopholes, loopholes!!

Thx for the laugh.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

Never been to a hunting camp when (at night) a loaded defender (or equivalent) is not kept within reach and/or slept with.

Sometimes these 'what if' propositions get us away from reality. Some officer turned up at our camp and made that argument then he would be laughed at. In Scotland its still unlawful to have oral s_x with your wife on New Years Eve.

He might laugh at you while you get arrested or have your firearms seized. Not as funny then!

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

He might laugh at you while you get arrested or have your firearms seized. Not as funny then!

I understand your point but its just too unrealistic. If I were to carry your argument further, would it not also be illegal to load my shotgun (at night) if it was chowing down on my wife (assuming she is not Scottish and this is New Years Eve)?

Retrieving a wounded or dead animal in the dark, taking caution whilst camping in remote bear territory, loading your rifle because a loved one is being eaten alive, these are three scenarios IMO that no officer is going to enforce your regulation. It just comes down to common sense.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

I understand your point but its just too unrealistic. If I were to carry your argument further, would it not also be illegal to load my shotgun (at night) if it was chowing down on my wife (assuming she is not Scottish and this is New Years Eve)?

Retrieving a wounded or dead animal in the dark, taking caution whilst camping in remote bear territory, loading your rifle because a loved one is being eaten alive, these are three scenarios IMO that no officer is going to enforce your regulation. It just comes down to common sense.

Sitting there at night with a loaded firearm is completely different than having to load the firearm to deal with a threat of death happening right then. Same as you would not be charged for a loading a firearm to protect yourself against a home invasion in progress as opposed to the police finding a loaded firearm in house and your explanation was that you keep it loaded incase a home invasion occurred.

[270WINCHESTER]

Question. This camera works using thermal images. Thermal cameras detect infrared energy (heat) and convert it to an electrical signal. Then how does it pick up the deer's antlers so well?? Not certain for sure so if im wrong someone pls inform me, but the antlers wouldn't produce any heat. So they shouldn't show up on the thermal images. Even if they did produce a bit of heat, its not nearly the same amount that the body produces. So the antlers should not show up as good as the rest of the deer. Soooo.....
I call bs on this product.

If i am wrong someone pls inform me before i make a bigger fool of myself. Thanks

[brendan's dad]

In actually measures infrared radiation which is invisible to the human eye. Even ice cubes emit infrared radiation. The levels will defer between objects which give you a certain amount of definition but not a lot. This is assuming the camera in question is using the same technology as a "FLIR"

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by 270WINCHESTER

Question. This camera works using thermal images. Thermal cameras detect infrared energy (heat) and convert it to an electrical signal. Then how does it pick up the deer's antlers so well?? Not certain for sure so if im wrong someone pls inform me, but the antlers wouldn't produce any heat. So they shouldn't show up on the thermal images. Even if they did produce a bit of heat, its not nearly the same amount that the body produces. So the antlers should not show up as good as the rest of the deer. Soooo.....
I call bs on this product.

If i am wrong someone pls inform me before i make a bigger fool of myself. Thanks

Antlers are covered in vascular skin (velvet) which brings oxygen and nutrients to the bone. This would be visible in infrared.

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Sitting there at night with a loaded firearm is completely different than having to load the firearm to deal with a threat of death happening right then. Same as you would not be charged for a loading a firearm to protect yourself against a home invasion in progress as opposed to the police finding a loaded firearm in house and your explanation was that you keep it loaded incase a home invasion occurred.

It may be different but it is still a literal breach of the regulation you quoted. Or do you agree now that there are exceptions?

[Big Sky]

It helps to think of temperature in the Kelvin scale.

I'm not sure of a deer's body temp, but lets say it's about 37 degrees Celsius
That would be 310 degrees kelvin

If the air temp was 0 degrees Celsius, that would be pretty close to the temp of the antlers.
That would be 273 degrees Kelvin

When you look at it in those terms, the deer's antlers actually hold a fair amount of heat. (no need to lecture on the diff between heat and temp) That heat will give off IR radiation which will show up in the photo.

Given the relatively low price of this item, I would be hesitant to spend my money on it.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by nelsonob1

It may be different but it is still a literal breach of the regulation you quoted. Or do you agree now that there are exceptions?

Yes there is exemption to all laws, that is where exigent circumstances come into play. The only expection you list which i would agree with is your ability to load a firearm to deal with an immediate risk, regardless of whether it is after legal shooting hours. (exigent circumstances) But you will not be covered for having it loaded to deal with a threat that "might" happen. The firearm act regulation speak to having a firearm for protection in remote locations. It states that you are exempted from rendering the firearm inoperable or storing the ammuntion in a seperate location but you still have to have the firearm unloaded. It is a basic and simple rule (one of the few within the firearms act!) If you can not legally discharge the fireram at that time or location then you can not legally have it loaded.

This is why it is illegal to have a loaded firearm within most city limits. The municipal bylaw states that discharge within city limits is illegal which then inacts section 15 which also makes it illegal to load the firearm within city limits. This same pricinple applies to the provincial legislation preventing discharging a firearm at night. Again, if you can't discharge it, you can't load it, plain and simple. Laugh all you want at the CO but if this is the advice you are providing to fellow hunters you may be leading them down a very unpleasant path.

[Morpheus32]

If I could offer some reality. I own a FLIR one that attaches to your iphone. Having experience with weapon and vehicle mounted systems, this system is very very basic. It might offer some assistance in the dark in an open area but there no magnification and the image is far from clear. This device is good for detecting heat loss in your house or in rooms. It might allow you to see something in the bush but leaves and grass reflect heat so it is hard. In total darkness if might prove useful but at the end of the day, it is very limited.

Spend $10k and that is a different issue. They will significantly change how you hunt.