Edmonton's Proposed Anti-Idling Bylaw

[BBJTKLE&FISHINGADVENTURES]

I think the city has more to worry about rather then whos running there car or truck to long. Just one of those thing you go

[Matt L.]

The enforcement for this latest council bilge will be neighbour snitching on neighbour. Really good for keeping the community together.

[Jamie]

Wow how did the City of Calgary aldermen get transfered to Edmonton. I thought for sure we had the dumbest ones in history. Now it looks like we have a tie.

Down here they are planning a 25 Million dollar pedestrian bridge...
Not enough sport facilitys, snow removal, freeways ect ect but yet they deam the bridge worthy of a South American desigener at a cost of 3.5Mil.
No one wants this bridge but the alderman in those districts. I have yet to see a group of people demanding this bridge. Oh yeah did I mention property taxes are going up 25% in the next 3 years.

STUPID STUPID STUPID

I really think a guy should take a run at this next election.

Jamie

[BBJTKLE&FISHINGADVENTURES]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I really think a guy should take a run at this next election.

Jamie

Id do it , but a whole lots of morons would get fired . And the truth would come out on a whole lot of stuff. and my suit would have to be camo. I wonder if they make a camo suit in fat man size.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by BIGBADJOHN

Id do it , but a whole lots of morons would get fired . And the truth would come out on a whole lot of stuff. and my suit would have to be camo. I wonder if they make a camo suit in fat man size.

Big, serriously.. Custom suits are the only way to go. Even if a guy can buy off the "rack" get CUSTOM!!

Jamie

[BBJTKLE&FISHINGADVENTURES]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Big, serriously.. Custom suits are the only way to go. Even if a guy can buy off the "rack" get CUSTOM!!

Jamie

True enough , doesn't politician = waste tax payer hard earned money.

[Map Maker]

Originally Posted by Sporty

More often than not the fumes seeped into our bedroom windows aggravating my daughter's asthma

We approached the fellow nicely on several occasions explaining the problem it was causing and he basically told us to f off each time. We complained to the landlord and asked them to at least move him to the other side of the parking lot away from our windows with no luck, it wasn't illegal what he was doing.

I dont think the bylaw would be for 99% of the folks but it would be for the 1% of azzhat wearers like the one above Sporty had to deal with. Bylaw would give her a legal course of action instead of the vigilanty justice option.

[220swifty]

Don't kid yourself, we all have to pay for the mistakes of the 1 %.

[rugatika]

I think that Edmonton city council are on the right track. I would also like to see fines going to people that have homes bigger than say a base of 300 sq ft plus 100 sq ft per person. A family of four would be allowed to live in a house of 700sq-ft. ANything more is a waste of resources to heat. And anyone that lived in a house with a yard would be given a yearly fine for wasting habitat. And anyone that eats more than 1000calories per day would also be fined.

People that wear glasses would be fined, and so would people in electric wheel chairs. There could be fines for people that burn wood and fines for people that bbq. Fines for people that walk slow and fines for people that walk fast. Fines for short people, and tall people too. Forgetful people that drive extra to get groceries they forgot would also get fined. In fact....why not just limit the number of kilometers each family can drive each month. There could be someone from the government that goes to each house every month and check odometers. And another thing...I'm sick of looking at my ugly neighbour. When will there be a fine to make sure ugly people stay indoors. I demand that the government correct every single inconvenience in my life!

Weeeee, this is fun. There is no end to the good our government can do for us. And each new bylaw would come with a whole new force of enforcement officers and bureaucrats and judicial branches. Pretty soon every single one of us will be living exactly the perfect life that someone much smarter than we are has decided is the perfect way to live. What a perfect wonderful world we will have.

Idiots.

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

My fuel, my choice.

I, I, I, Me, Me, Me

When someones rights encroach on those of another it is no longer "your fuel, your choice". If that is the only reason people have behind unnecessary idling of their vehicles then it is a poor one.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Sporty

I, I, I, Me, Me, Me

When someones rights encroach on those of another it is no longer "your fuel, your choice". If that is the only reason people have behind unnecessary idling of their vehicles then it is a poor one.

So where does it end? At what point do you say government shouldn't be able to tell me what to do? Do you want the gov't or your neighbour deciding how many kids you should be able to have?? More kids means more resources being used. If we decide it's OK for gov't to dictate how we live our lives in one area, why can't they decide for us in others. Can I idle my truck an extra 20 hours per year if I don't fly somewhere for a holiday?

Be careful which freedoms you trade away to the government.

[209x50]

Of course the enforcement costs will skyrocket and the taxpayer in Edmonton will pay for it, who cares if the taxes are leaping by double digits every year? The crime of it all is how absolutely senseless and valueless it is. Canada - all - of Canada accounts for 2% of the worlds greenhouse gases, so even shutting down Canada so we all sat and froze to death in the dark is nothing but tokenism. It is easy to see the only benefit in a stupid idling law is the increase in government's chokehold on personal rights and freedoms.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by roadkill

We have a bylaw like that already, though I *believ* it's 2 minutes. The city didn't descend into anarchy over it. I think that, if people didn't leave their cars idling needlessly, we wouldn't need such laws. It's a small gensture for the environment, even if it seems like a huge bite out of our liberties or some other such nebulous concept.

Liberty? A nebulous concept?

[Sporty]

Rugatika, I think we need to carefully pick our battles and how we expend our resources on fighting them. Of course I don't want the gov't telling me how to live my life, comparing an anti idling bylaw to restricting how many children people can have is apples to oranges.


It comes down to personal responsibilty which is lacking in today's society. All it takes is for someone to say to themselves, hey, maybe my noisy, stinky diesel truck running at all hours is affecting someone else and shut it down. If people don't want these types of bylaws coming out maybe they should turn to their buddies that are guilty of doing the things that are attributing to these bylaws and ask them to cut it out.

The fellow I had to deal with and many more like him obviously assumed his right to run his truck needlessly was more important than my right to not inhale the fumes from his stinky diesel truck. How many more out there have that very same mentality? and not with just this one issue but in all aspects of life too many people believe their rights are more important than the next person.

[rugatika]

You may think they are two unrelated topics right now, but I guarantee you that right now there is a group of people thinking how great the world would be if you were only allowed to have one child per family (just like China). 10 years ago an anti-idling bylaw would have been laughed at by 99% of the people, now it is acceptable (sort of to some people).

The guy pointing his exhaust into your apt was wrong, but we can't go running to the gov't to correct every single one of life's inconveniences. If I choose to live in the city, then I have to put up with increased traffic, kids running around the neighbourhood screaming and having fun, etc.

What about campfires? They are totally recreational in use, yet they spew way more pollution etc into the air than my new diesel. Why should they not be banned?

Sorry, but I really don't think the gov't should be allowed to have any more control over my life than it already does. I actually think that gov't needs to be shrunk to about 1/10th of its current size, NOT expanded.

[pdfish]

Originally Posted by rugatika

What about campfires? They are totally recreational in use, yet they spew way more pollution etc into the air than my new diesel. Why should they not be banned?

SHHHHH!!! Don't let any politicians know that, or we'll be forced to bring our Mr. Heaters camping with us if we want a fire.

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Be careful which freedoms you trade away to the government.

Driving's not a right. It's a priviledge. That's why you have to do a test and get a license. Not every new by-law passed is a strike against human liberties.

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Liberty? A nebulous concept?

What I mean by that is that people's ideas of what constitutes a 'liberty' or a 'right' are so completely mixed-up that nobody really knows what the conversation's really about anymore.

In Canada, rights and freedoms are a closed system: both are specifically laid out in the Charter. Driving's not in there (even *with* paragraph 26), nor is gun ownership or many of the myriad things that get some people all hopped up and babbling about communism or whatever.

I'm pretty sure we all learnt our Constitution in high school, so I'm not sure where this comes from. I have a sneaking susicion that it's the fact that we're constantly inundated by the US idea of a right or a freedom.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by roadkill

What I mean by that is that people's ideas of what constitutes a 'liberty' or a 'right' are so completely mixed-up that nobody really knows what the conversation's really about anymore.

In Canada, rights and freedoms are a closed system: both are specifically laid out in the Charter. Driving's not in there (even *with* paragraph 26), nor is gun ownership or many of the myriad things that get some people all hopped up and babbling about communism or whatever.

I'm pretty sure we all learnt our Constitution in high school, so I'm not sure where this comes from. I have a sneaking susicion that it's the fact that we're constantly inundated by the US idea of a right or a freedom.

Well thank God almighty that MY rights have been spelled out by none other than Pierre Elliot Trudeau. I see what you mean when you say that Liberty is a nebulous concept to some people. If it's not in the charter it's fair game for the gov't to axe it. In Canada we don't even have property rights.

The US idea of rights and freedoms (which I know is like referring to the devil for some) came from some of the most brilliant political minds of the time and maybe that we will ever see. They were operating on the idea that man is an individual born with certain inalienable rights (like the right to protect himself AND his property). Our political ideas of rights and freedoms came from the British parliament system and as adjusted/set in stone by a Liberal/socialist government operating on the principle that man is part of a collective and the good of the collective trump the rights of the individual.

I really don't want to get into an argument of WHAT is liberty since as you stated, some people are unable to grasp the concept of being free and feel more secure when the powers of government are expanded to protect them from every uncomfortable situation that may arise, no matter what personal liberties it may trample on.

Suffice it to say that if I want to let my truck warm up for 20 minutes then I should bloody well be able to let it warm up for 20 minutes without some pinhead sitting looking out their window with a stopwatch just because they belong to the cult of global warming.

[AxeMan]

Rugatika, thanks for your posts. I agree that what bugs me most about about this proposed bylaw is that these politicians think they can legislate any aspect of our private lives. It is a precident for many things to come. Whatever happened to maintaining our infrastructure, enforcing real crime like theft, murder, drugs, and gangs. Not to mention keeping our tax burden in check. But no, they obsess with useless bylaws, winter festivals, downtown hockey arenas, million dollar welcome signs, art gallery funding, etc. They truly have lost their way.

Sporty, I'm sure the guy in the diesel could have been dealt with with the nuisance bylaw that already exists. Did you contact bylaw or the police or your city alderman about the problem? Apartment managers are powerless for the most part.

[duffy4]

CABIN FEVER Looks like it is striking early this year. Lots of grouchy complaining posters. I reckon if the government was thinking about giving everybody an apple pie there would be an outcry on here that it was a waste of money and they should give rasin pie intead.

I never even thought that this law would have anything to do with world wide green house gas emissions.

I kind of thought it had to do with fouling OUR air and wasteing OUR fuel.

If there was a big attitude change (My fuel, my choice) a lot of our problems would get solved or reduced.

I agree with Rugs recomendation for once, reducing the size of the human population would be the best thing to happen on this planet in a long time.

Robin in Rocky

[220swifty]

Sporty,

My biggest problem with such bylaws is to see the government creating more laws when they fail to enforce what is already in place. To me it is not about a neighbor with a stinky, noisy diesel idling it outside your door, that should be covered already under a nuisance bylaw. If i was in that situation, i would have the common sense to figure out that you were likely sleeping through that wall and would park elsewhere. Should that common sense fail me, forcing you to bring it up with me, i am sure i would have the courtesy to move the truck elsewhere. Don't applaud a stupid law just because you got stuck dealing with one *******, who likely could have been dealt with in other ways.


Now, looking at this law i see major fundamental flaws, using Red Deer as my example, as they are phasing it in here. If it is about the environment, why are buses exempt? They are parked in heated bays and don't need to idle for hours on end to warm up. They also have a good sized diesel engine which seems to pump out some good black smoke on occasion. If a bus is sitting empty, why not kill the engine? Is it because buses are "green" ()transport so they offset the damage they do by keeping people from driving there personal vehicles? If that is the logic they use, i helped a lady in distress this morning, so it is ok if i punch out the next guy who ****es me off in traffic, right?

Looking at Edmonton, wouldnt the public funds being dumped on this project be much better spent upping the pressure on gangs and enforcing existing rules, intead of making more?

Just some food for thought sporty, it isn't all about me, but my life sure isn't going to be ran by someone else.

[rugatika]

Roadkill got me thinking just what is liberty? Here's an article I found that does a good job of explaining liberty and more precisely liberty in the modern and traditional sense of the word.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/gov_ph...is_liberty.htm

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by duffy4

CABIN FEVER Looks like it is striking early this year. Lots of grouchy complaining posters. I reckon if the government was thinking about giving everybody an apple pie there would be an outcry on here that it was a waste of money and they should give rasin pie intead.

I never even thought that this law would have anything to do with world wide green house gas emissions.

I kind of thought it had to do with fouling OUR air and wasteing OUR fuel.

If there was a big attitude change (My fuel, my choice) a lot of our problems would get solved or reduced.

I agree with Rugs recomendation for once, reducing the size of the human population would be the best thing to happen on this planet in a long time.

Robin in Rocky

Exactly, why should people with children get tax benefits? There should be a huge tax associated with having children. Perhaps Edmonton city council will take the lead in introducing this measure.

But one thing...when I buy the fuel with MY money it becomes MY fuel. I have a new diesel that has very near zero pollution. People with older vehicles should obviously be subject to higher taxes and fines than me. Running my truck for an hour probably has lower emissions than someone driving a 10 year old truck for 10 minutes. I say fine the crap out of those OTHER people driving the old vehicles. They are the ones that need to be punished. I have made a huge capital investment in saving the environment and as such I should be given a tax benefit for my efforts while those driving older vehicles should be taxed extra.

[sparky660]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Exactly, why should people with children get tax benefits? There should be a huge tax associated with having children. Perhaps Edmonton city council will take the lead in introducing this measure.

But one thing...when I buy the fuel with MY money it becomes MY fuel. I have a new diesel that has very near zero pollution. People with older vehicles should obviously be subject to higher taxes and fines than me. Running my truck for an hour probably has lower emissions than someone driving a 10 year old truck for 10 minutes. I say fine the crap out of those OTHER people driving the old vehicles. They are the ones that need to be punished. I have made a huge capital investment in saving the environment and as such I should be given a tax benefit for my efforts while those driving older vehicles should be taxed extra.

So you think that it's alright to regulate vehicles that pollute more, but you then don't agree with a bylaw that will obviously reduce emissions??

[220swifty]

sparky, i think rug was pointing out the stupidity of the blanket effect this law has.

another response for sporty, since you seem to think i am a selfish type. How about you, you seem to cast the blame out to everyone else. If diesel fumes were seeping in to your residence, you might think that windows/doors were not sealing up properly. You might want to look at fixing that instead of perpetually bitching at the truck owner (YOU, YOU, YOU, THEM THEM THEM).

Be proactive, instead of finding someone to blame your probelms on and solve them for you, fix them yourself.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sparky660

So you think that it's alright to regulate vehicles that pollute more, but you then don't agree with a bylaw that will obviously reduce emissions??

Do you really truly think that this bylaw will have any effect on emissions? I mean seriously think about it, how many people will be reported by their neighbors? how many reporters will face their reportees in court? This is the silliest fiscal boondoggle to parade around in "green science" in a long time.

[sparky660]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Do you really truly think that this bylaw will have any effect on emissions? I mean seriously think about it, how many people will be reported by their neighbors? how many reporters will face their reportees in court? This is the silliest fiscal boondoggle to parade around in "green science" in a long time.

A vehicle idling all night VS a vehicle idling for 3 minutes, kind of obvious to me. By the response on this forum I would bet quite a few would get reported. I know if it stunk up my house or kept me up all night I wouldn't hesitate if the owner of the vehicle would not reason with me.

[sparky660]

Originally Posted by 220swifty

sparky, i think rug was pointing out the stupidity of the blanket effect this law has.

another response for sporty, since you seem to think i am a selfish type. How about you, you seem to cast the blame out to everyone else. If diesel fumes were seeping in to your residence, you might think that windows/doors were not sealing up properly. You might want to look at fixing that instead of perpetually bitching at the truck owner (YOU, YOU, YOU, THEM THEM THEM).

Be proactive, instead of finding someone to blame your probelms on and solve them for you, fix them yourself.

I agree 100% with being proactive but if that doesn't work then the law will take over. You can have a perfectly sealed home but when the furnace intake comes from outside the best windows won't do a bit of good.

[Fish Cannon]

Dumb by-law.