Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Hunting Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #301  
Old 03-13-2019, 06:35 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR View Post
And just how did they age your ram? Don’t go by counting rings, that isn’t a tried and true way of aging. If you think it is you’ve been living a dream.
We have aged rams by horn annuli forever. It ain't rocket science and it is accurate. What comes out of your head continues to amaze me RZR.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #302  
Old 03-13-2019, 06:39 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
I’m done here bdub. Thankfully your not in charge.
That's pretty dramatic, enjoy the rest of your day.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #303  
Old 03-13-2019, 06:44 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 997
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
I’m done here bdub. Thankfully your not in charge.
Promise?
  #304  
Old 03-13-2019, 07:06 PM
SLH SLH is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 764
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
What is the average life expectancy of Big Horn Rams in Alberta Bdub?
I’ve read that the average Big Horn lives until he is 7-8 I believe this to be true and here’s why. In 2000 I shot a Ram out of a Band of 53 Rams over 30 were legal 6-9 years old. I watched them for 2.5 hours before I shot what I thought was the biggest. The Ram was 8.5 years old.
I told this same story to an old time Sheep hunter a few years later. I hunted the same area hard for the next few years and never seen any rams over 5-6 years old. So I ask him were they went, he told me most had passed away at 7-8 years old, hard Rut and hard winter they have turned to dirt.
Bluedog
That's quite a story.
  #305  
Old 03-13-2019, 07:43 PM
flyguyd's Avatar
flyguyd flyguyd is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 3,659
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub View Post
We have aged rams by horn annuli forever. It ain't rocket science and it is accurate. What comes out of your head continues to amaze me RZR.
What is the age on that squeeker bdub and we can see if you and F&W are on the same page ? Sorry its not crystal clear , it is a crop of a scan from the 80s
__________________
Dont sweat the petty stuff, and dont pet the sweaty stuff
  #306  
Old 03-13-2019, 08:02 PM
Bluedog Bluedog is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Default

Intro
Unfortunately, when it comes to harvesting mature rams, most folks get infatuated with horn length and mass. This is good, but more importantly, age is the one criteria that should trump all others and become the deciding factor to pull the trigger.

This presentation has a dual purpose: First, to help you correctly measure Bighorn Rams, and also include tips to do it accurately. For that, we will be following Boone & Crocket’s system of measurement. And second; to share some important tips to be able to age your ram properly.

Get some tools as shown on slide No. 42, a black cup of cowboy coffee and lets get to work!
Loading…
Age Determination…
The scientific or correct way to determine a Ram’s age is to do Necropsy on the incisors. This process is referred to as the: “Tooth Cementum Annuli Count”

A .65 mm section of each tooth from the bottom jaw is removed and frozen before being sectioned in to 7 to 10 micron longitudinal sections. Next, the sections are floated in petri dishes of water and mounted on albumenated slides. They are then left to dry at room temperature and then stained with a blue toluidine solution. Following the drying process, they are viewed under a compound microscope with a magnification of 40 to 100x. The age rings are then counted under the microscope and one year is added to obtain the total age of the ram. This one year is because of the fact that the primary incisor does not erupt until the animal is about a year old.

There you have it; The Scientific method!
Loading…
Unless you are able to perform the process described in the previous slide, your only measure of a Ram’s age is to count his annuli age rings.

Besides their first year which inhibits the growth of a “ridge” rather than a groove or a “ring” as Taxonomists call it, a healthy Ram grows one annual ring every year, starting in early Spring.

You need to get educated so that you can differentiate between an annuli ring and non annuli rings and that is what I will try and learn you here.
As Jeff Kneteman of U of A describes in this slide, in Winter months, the horns stop growing and start growing again in the Spring. This “Stop and Start” process is what creates the annulus, aka annual growth ring. The annuli ring goes completely around the circumference.

On a typical Ram, the lamb tip, the 2nd and 3rd year annuli are separated by a larger distance. After that, as the Ram gets older, the distance between the annuli decreases. In this example, the annuli are highlighted with white Chalk.

The Lamb Tip

First annuli
Second annuli
Third annuli
Fourth annuli
Fifth annuli
Sixth annuli
Seventh annuli
Eighth annuli
Ninth annuli
Tenth annuli
Eleventh annuli
Real annuli are deeper than the fake annuli and there is a visible discontinuity in the lines crossing the annuli at a right angle. This is a very important tip to consider. Look at it here and you will see it for yourself.

Notice the “discontinuity “of these
lines, perpendicular to the annuli

The other important hint to look for is the “change in the angle” of growth at an annuli.

Note the “Change” in angle as
you hit the annuli rings.

Thinhorn sheep are easier to identify as far as age rings show. Look how distinct the age rings look on this ram. They also broom less than their Bighorn cousins.

Loading…
In some bad years with harsh Winters and Springs with low vegetation growth, horn growth diminishes…
This is how a “normal” growth pattern looks like on a Ram’s horn. The distances between the annuli gradually decreases.

This is how a “abnormal” growth pattern looks like on a Ram’s horn. This could be due to a long and harsh Winter which is typically followed by a lousy Spring. Look for it on BOTH horns and you should see it identically on both.

Boone and Crocket scoring system…
The first thing you need is a ¼” wide flexible steel tape. Best to buy the official one from B&C Store.

It is also advantageous to have someone else help you as you will find out in the coming slides.

We are going to age this ram first and then put the tape on him.

Here is the first annuli or the ridge as mentioned prior.

The second annuli…

The third…

The fourth…

The fifth…

The sixth…

The Seventh…

And finally, the Eighth.

Note the change in angle which occurs at the annuli.

As I mentioned before, the Thinhorn annuli are easier to see than those on the Bighorns.

Here is the B&C score sheet, straight out of their website.

Loading…
You start measuring the length from the lowest part of the ridge, just above the skull.

Make sure you roll the steel tape along the middle of the curve, applying pressure to keep it down.

Do this for both horns and mark the lengths down. In this particular case, L1 = 29 6/8” and R1 = 29 4/8”. Measuring at the end should be at right angles to the steel tape.

After you have determined the length along the curve for both horns, you take the longest horn length and divide it by four. You are doing this to see how the horns carry the girth (hence the mass) along the curve. You can either use chalk to mark these quarter points, or use a masking tape to stick it to the horns along the curve and mark it on the tape.

For our particular specimen, the right horn measured at 29 4/8” and the left horn at 29 6/8”. Hence divide 29 6/8” by 4 which equals = 7 7/16”. Then mark these quarter points along the curve on BOTH horns as shown on the next few slides.
I like to put transverse pieces of masking tape at the quarter points “under the steel tape” and mark them with a line.

You then have to use the steel tape, apply enough pressure to make it staunch and measure the girth. Its best to straddle the marked location between the overlapping tape sections as shown here.

The trickiest of all girth measurements is at the base as the tape has the tendency to slip off the horn. Remember that the tape must stay on the horn and not the skull bone, all around and as close to the end as possible.

Greatest spread and tip to tip spread are also recorded but play no part in the overall score.

Lets fill the B&C Score sheet now…

Concluding Remarks…
This particular specimen only scored
150 6/8”. It did not even come close to the 180” mark required by B&C as the min all time entry. However, he is a mature
8 ½ year old doubly broomed ram. Will I consider it a trophy sheep, you bet I will and you should too. This ram has done most of its breeding and is nearing the end of his useful life. He is a trophy to be proud of and will look great on your wall showing scars of his battle over the years.
With these basic tools and some practice and patience, you will soon be able to judge scores with some degree of accuracy.

If you have harvested a Ram in Alberta, we need your help…
Please read and contact one of the individuals shown below, or contact myself at : Lovedmtns@gmail.com

Have fun and do not get the Sheep fever or else???
Alpine Outdoors Productions-2015 Copyright
  #307  
Old 03-13-2019, 08:10 PM
Bluedog Bluedog is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Default

Aging and Scoring BH Sheep.ppsx

Jeff Kneteman of U of A Lovedmtns@gmail.com 780-865-8369

Bluedog
  #308  
Old 03-13-2019, 08:11 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyd View Post
What is the age on that squeeker bdub and we can see if you and F&W are on the same page ? Sorry its not crystal clear , it is a crop of a scan from the 80s





Thats what I see from the scan of that photo. There may be another there but I don’t think so. A photo from the back is ideal where you can see the change in angle of the segment.

Are you going to post the registration sheet?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #309  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:13 PM
flyguyd's Avatar
flyguyd flyguyd is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 3,659
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub View Post


Thats what I see from the scan of that photo. There may be another there but I don’t think so. A photo from the back is ideal where you can see the change in angle of the segment.

Are you going to post the registration sheet?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ya lol as soon as i can find it . That poor ole ram has been dead and registered longer than the average age of this forumJust gotta remember where i saw it last,2 renovations ago.

They aged it as 4 1/2. 16 1/2" bases , 33" on the long side. To be fair , i always thot it was 5 1/2
__________________
Dont sweat the petty stuff, and dont pet the sweaty stuff
  #310  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:18 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyd View Post
Ya lol as soon as i can find it . That poor ole ram has been dead and registered longer than the average age of this forumJust gotta remember where i saw it last,2 renovations ago.

They aged it as 4 1/2. 16 1/2" bases , 33" on the long side. To be fair , i always thot it was 5 1/2

Nice bases, was it a 400 ram? Pull it off the wall and post a pic from the back. That would be nice to see. And the registration sheet would be cool to see as well. Good luck finding it.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #311  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:31 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default



This guy shows the segments really well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #312  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:36 PM
flyguyd's Avatar
flyguyd flyguyd is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 3,659
Default

This guy shows the segments really well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Ya 400
Easy one , Corner Mtn .Never took another and not going too with this old hip of mine .....lol
__________________
Dont sweat the petty stuff, and dont pet the sweaty stuff
  #313  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:46 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Oh well, you got your one. I miss that country, going to go take a wander around down there before I blow a hip as well! Do a ten dayer or so and go check out some old spots. See if the rams are still holding in them same places they used to. It will be nice to go see some mature rams that are actually living outside of the parks. See how much things have improved since they went full curl.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #314  
Old 03-13-2019, 09:59 PM
RZR RZR is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub View Post
Oh well, you got your one. I miss that country, going to go take a wander around down there before I blow a hip as well! Do a ten dayer or so and go check out some old spots. See if the rams are still holding in them same places they used to. It will be nice to go see some mature rams that are actually living outside of the parks. See how much things have improved since they went full curl.
You may be disappointed! Do you not see 4 rings in the photo?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FED4FE96-1F65-4BCE-A3A4-00428AFA0B5A.jpg (39.6 KB, 60 views)
  #315  
Old 03-13-2019, 10:05 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR View Post
You may be disappointed! Do you not see 4 rings in the photo?
What in the living hell are you talking about now? I see 4 squiggly red lines at four different annuli? Do you think this photo is flyguys ram? There are place you can turn to for help you know. I am sure there is an optometrist nearby that can rig you up. This ram is ten RZR. Zoom in a bit.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold

Last edited by bdub; 03-13-2019 at 10:20 PM.
  #316  
Old 03-14-2019, 03:11 AM
RZR RZR is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 838
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub View Post
What in the living hell are you talking about now? I see 4 squiggly red lines at four different annuli? Do you think this photo is flyguys ram? There are place you can turn to for help you know. I am sure there is an optometrist nearby that can rig you up. This ram is ten RZR. Zoom in a bit.
I was talking about being disappointed in WMU 400. And that ram your showing, I see 4 lines that would make that ram 6 1/2. I was aware that this ram was not flyguy’s. With flyguy’s ram you can see how the age thing has skewed your science bs when fish and wildlife can’t even age it the same as you have. So now all your numbers that you have shown in your little charts, one would have to ask how accurate is the average age structure of your charts.
  #317  
Old 03-14-2019, 07:57 AM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR View Post
And that ram your showing, I see 4 lines that would make that ram 6 1/2.
It's painfully obvious that you don't have a clue what you are talking about or how to age rams if you come to that deduction. 6 1/2 eh. Ya ok RZR.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #318  
Old 03-15-2019, 08:55 AM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Heres a better look RZR. Yellow are true annuli. Red is a false annuli.

The pattern of spiral growth marked by horn annuli in rams horns follows a phenomenon common in nature. The segments grow in continuing decreasing length that follow a logarithmic pattern. If you wanted you could use math to calculate the age of a ram by the data from a couple segments if that was all you to go by. Or identify false rings. Or you could get a good idea of how large the rams horns would have grown into the future. Most peoples eyes can recognize logarithmic patterns as they are all around us. Its not to difficult.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #319  
Old 03-15-2019, 09:36 AM
Scouter Scouter is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Alberta
Posts: 317
Default

lol

You guys are wasting your breath.
bdub's head is buried so deep.
he's definitely on a mission lol
  #320  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:10 AM
SLH SLH is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 764
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouter View Post
lol

You guys are wasting your breath.
bdub's head is buried so deep.
he's definitely on a mission lol
His Head Is Buried!

What does he have wrong? What is his mission? What do you have to offer to counter? Why not add something productive so an actual discussion can take place?
  #321  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:34 AM
Scouter Scouter is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Alberta
Posts: 317
Default

sounds like some one needs a hug
  #322  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:55 AM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouter View Post
sounds like some one needs a hug
There is always some guys on here that try and add, with data, theory or whatever. WB for one, that make you think. There is always guys on here that have a little bit of the data but haven't really studied it and think they know, or misrepresent it, or just want to disagree with out anything to back it up. There's always a few chirpers on here that add zip.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #323  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:03 AM
crazy_davey crazy_davey is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Foothills
Posts: 2,337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouter View Post
sounds like some one needs a hug
Got nothing eh? Thanks for chiming in though...
  #324  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:09 AM
crazy_davey crazy_davey is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Foothills
Posts: 2,337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub View Post
There is always some guys on here that try and add, with data, theory or whatever. WB for one, that make you think. There is always guys on here that have a little bit of the data but haven't really studied it and think they know, or misrepresent it, or just want to disagree with out anything to back it up. There's always a few chirpers on here that add zip.
How do you argue with many members who can barely put two sentences together or spell their own names? You are a better man than I...

  #325  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:12 AM
SLH SLH is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 764
Default

Bdub I was just thinking the same thing, I disagree with guys like WB on some parts of this issue but it is based on an understanding of the issue and a general knowledge of the facts. Then there's the dog brothers who I'd suspect scooter here is the youngest, that continually show what happens when you don't read anything.
  #326  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:14 AM
SLH SLH is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 764
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_davey View Post
How do you argue with many members who can barely put two sentences together or spell their own names? You are a better man than I...


You and me as well
  #327  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:23 AM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_davey View Post
How do you argue with many members who can barely put two sentences together or spell their own names? You are a better man than I...

I hear ya. If I didn't think it was such an important issue for the future of sheep hunting here I wouldn't bother. I usually can't handle this much stupid in one place.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #328  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:58 PM
bonedogg's Avatar
bonedogg bonedogg is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdub View Post
I hear ya. If I didn't think it was such an important issue for the future of sheep hunting here I wouldn't bother. I usually can't handle this much stupid in one place.
stupid is as stupid does........life of the ego centric mindset
  #329  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:30 PM
bdub's Avatar
bdub bdub is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLH View Post
Bdub I was just thinking the same thing, I disagree with guys like WB on some parts of this issue but it is based on an understanding of the issue and a general knowledge of the facts. Then there's the dog brothers who I'd suspect scooter here is the youngest, that continually show what happens when you don't read anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonedogg View Post
stupid is as stupid does........life of the ego centric mindset
Right on cue another one shows up to add something meaningful to the discussion. It's predictable.
__________________
There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot. Aldo Leopold
  #330  
Old 03-15-2019, 11:55 PM
Pixel Shooter's Avatar
Pixel Shooter Pixel Shooter is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 4,318
Default

I’ve wasted much time reading this train wreck. We’re done here with the beating of chests. There is only a few of you in this , so feel free to take to pm to further discuss.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.