Canadian parliament honours Nazi with standing ovation

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

Excuse me? Are you saying that not one, not one of those member’s of parliament realized that the Russians fought the Nazis in WW II? Were we too busy parading corruption through the halls of the commons to realize this?

I think you can lay most of the blame at the feet of our education system. Most if not all of the MP were born long after the "great wars" were a forgotten part of our past.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Moe

"Fight your own war"!!!!!! Believe it or not, this is also our war and all civilized nations. Remember your history! The Americans tried to avoid WW1 and WW2 as it was "Europes War and let them fight it". They got dragged in anyway and millions more died than needed to. If they had been involved earlier, like Canada did, then the war would have ended earlier and millions more would have survived.

This is the cheapest war in history to fight as no Canadian, or its allies, blood is being spilled ...... just some coloured paper (money). If we do not support Ukraine, Russia will move on and next thing you know, a NATO ally will be attacked and we will all have to fight anyway. Better to do it now when it costs a few bucks instead of your sons, brothers, cousins etc.

Shh. you will get band for bringing logic into this discussion. Most think if you pay the bully with your lunch money today. Tomorrow he will leave them alone.

[badbrass]

You got this right!

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Shh. you will get band for bringing logic into this discussion. Most think if you pay the bully with your lunch money today. Tomorrow he will leave them alone.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Moe

"Fight your own war"!!!!!! Believe it or not, this is also our war and all civilized nations. Remember your history! The Americans tried to avoid WW1 and WW2 as it was "Europes War and let them fight it". They got dragged in anyway and millions more died than needed to. If they had been involved earlier, like Canada did, then the war would have ended earlier and millions more would have survived.

This is the cheapest war in history to fight as no Canadian, or its allies, blood is being spilled ...... just some coloured paper (money). If we do not support Ukraine, Russia will move on and next thing you know, a NATO ally will be attacked and we will all have to fight anyway. Better to do it now when it costs a few bucks instead of your sons, brothers, cousins etc.

The big question is where those bucks are going, how many million are being stolen by greedy opportunists, and whose pockets are getting lined?

[AxeMan]

My head hurts. Nazi's in Parliament, bad. Zelenskyy in Parliament.
Hunka a Nazi. Putin fighting Nazi's in Ukraine according to Putin.
Zelenskyy's Azov Battalion are Nazi's? Trudeau calls our truckers Nazi's.
WW2, Russia an Ally, now the enemy. Germany vice versa. Same people's offspring.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...-azov-regiment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGdUtUefjCA

I have read so much over the past couple of years trying to figure this out, I honestly don't know what to believe anymore. My friend at work from the Ukraine (Kharkiv) just tells me it is a damn big mess over there when I quiz him.

I sure don't want to follow Trudeau's rhetoric blindly, nor Putin's, and not Zelenskyy's either. Don't want to be one of those clapping seals. I don't know, maybe Moe is right.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

The 100,000 or so Poles were massacred in 1943-44 (see one of my previous posts). Also, Holocaust didn’t end in 1943. In fact, some concentration camps were just being opened and some ghettos beginning to be liquidated. Some of the most horrible things were still to come. Gypsies were yet to be eliminated, and so on.


That guy was on the plane to Israel, where he was sentenced to death, then the sentence reversed because of possible mistaken identity (they thought he was a famous torturer in one of the camps and ran the gas chambers there). Turns out he was a guard at Sobibor (I think?), and was later prosecuted and sentenced to minor jail time in Germany and died there in a nursing home while waiting for the appeal decision or something like that, I do not remember exactly.


We do not know what he was involved in. Partially why I agree with the latter.




This is nonsense because, again, they massacred something like 100,000 Polish civilians, burned down entire villages. Guess what they are saying and the official line is? There were thousands of Polish and Ukraines murdered and blah blah blah. Exactly what the nazis did to many others.

Also, that reads (exactly) like the Ukrainian propaganda and has been discussed by various scholars numerous times. For example:

As early as October 1943, leaders of the OUN and UPA issued orders to prepare documents that would indicate that the Germans persecuted and killed the Jews without any help from the Ukrainian police. During the Holocaust, the OUN and UPA publications very rarely mentioned the annihilation of Jews. The few publications which mentioned the Shoah, pointed only to the Germans as perpetrators. The mass violence against the Polish civilians was partially ignored in the OUN and UPA propaganda and partially portrayed as a Polish–Ukrainian war or a Polish aggression. The killing and suffering of Ukrainians, on the other hand, was an important component of the official nationalist propaganda, during the war. Especially important were the Ukrainian nationalists who were killed or imprisoned by the Nazis. These individuals were portrayed as soldiers who had fallen for Ukraine or suffered for their country.

And:

Immediately after the war, Ukrainian nationalists in exile published several short books and booklets about the war in western Ukraine, and also a number of brief memoirs in newspapers. One of such publications was authored by Mykola Lebed’, who from fall 1941 until May 1943 had been the leader of the OUN-B. Lebed’s book appeared in 1946 in Rome and was titled UPA: Ukrainian Insurgent Army: Its Genesis, Rise and Deeds in the Struggle of the Ukrainian Nation for an Independent United State. The former OUN-B leader portrayed the UPA as an army that bravely fought against Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union for an independent Ukrainian state. He did not mention in his book the vehement and racialist nationalism and antisemitism of the OUN, and characterized the ideology of the UPA as patriotism or love for its own country. Similarly, he did not mention the pogroms of 1941, the involvement of the OUN in mass violence against Jews as policemen, UPA’s mass killings of the Poles, and the killings of Jews in hiding by the Ukrainian police, UPA, and the local population. Describing Jewish doctors who stayed or were forced to stay with the Ukrainian insurgents, he stated that the UPA rescued them although he knew that some of them were killed by the Security Service (SB, Sluzhba Bezpeky) of the OUN-B, other OUN members, and UPA partisans. It is also possible that he personally issued orders to kill them, before he left Ukraine. To substantiate the argument that the OUN-B and UPA did not collaborate with the Nazis, Lebed’ described in detail most of the better-known Ukrainian nationalists who had been killed by the Germans, and published their photographs.

Another intriguing early publication about the Second World War in Ukraine appeared in 1946 in Buenos Aires. Its author, Volodymyr Makar, used the pseudonym Marko Vira and called his book Seven Years of Liberating Struggle. Similar to Lebed’, Makar forgot to describe the various kinds of mass violence conducted by the Ukrainian nationalists; the racist, antisemitic, and other radical right elements of their ideology; and their collaboration with Nazi Germany. He victimized the Ukrainians even more than Lebed’. Before describing the Second World War, Makar strongly exaggerated the number of the Ukrainian victims of the Soviet policies while arguing that twenty million Ukrainians were starved to death and murdered by the Soviet regime. Describing the events after 22 June 1941 and the proclamation of the state on 30 June 1941, he did not mention the collaboration with Nazi Germany, but wrote about following the principle of independence. Describing the events of 30 June 1941, he described how the OUN-B established militia and attempted to establish a state but he did not write anything about the Lviv pogrom and the role the OUN-B militia played in this anti-Jewish act of violence.

Next to heroism and the fight for independence, Makar made suffering a crucial component of his narrative. The Ukrainians are in his account portrayed as the sole and main victims of the Nazi terror in Ukraine. Every aspect of their suffering is exaggerated. Jews, on the other hand, are not mentioned at all. As a result, the reader gets the impression that the Ukrainians were the main victims of the Nazis in occupied Ukraine. Makar described, for example, how the Soviet POWs suffered in Ukraine because there were, according to him, many Ukrainians among them. Similarly, he explained in detail how the living conditions deteriorated during the German occupation and how the slave work affected the life of the Ukrainians. The fate of any other national group is not mentioned at all. Even when describing the mass shootings by the Germans, he argued that the sole victims were Ukrainians. The word “Jew” does not appear even once in the entire publication.

This way of remembering and representing the German occupation of Ukraine has persevered among many communities of the Ukraine diaspora until today. During the last seven decades, no major changes can be seen in the nationalist narrative of understanding and presenting the Second World War and the Holocaust, although the narrative has adapted itself to the particular political situation of the day, such as the importance of nuclear power during the Cold War or the economic dependence of Russia after the Soviet Union disintegrated. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukrainians in western Ukraine, in particular in eastern Galicia and Volhynia where the UPA had been active until the early 1950s, adapted this narrative and began to explain the Second World War in a very similar selective manner.

A central element that appears in possibly all Ukrainian nationalist publications on the Second World War is the motif of Ukrainian nationalist prisoners in Nazi concentration camps. Similarly to the killing of Ukrainian nationalists by the Germans, this fact has been used to argue that the Ukrainian nationalists opposed Nazis, did not collaborate with them, and were not fascists but fought for national independence and a free democratic state. Although Ukrainian nationalists stayed in the camps as special and ordinary political prisoners and although about 80 percent of them survived the camps because of this special treatment, they are presented as people who shared the fate of the Jews. These claims appear in both the memoirs of the former Ukrainian political prisoners of the German concentration camps and in various historic books and articles about the Second World War. The fact that Bandera’s two brothers Vasyl and Oleksandr died or were killed in Auschwitz was absolutely central for the nationalist narrative because it allowed to fortify the idea of sharing the fate of the Jews and using the most important symbol of Ukrainian nationalism. The question, if some of the Ukrainian nationalist prisoners participated in the pogroms in summer 1941, was on the other hand not discussed in these publications.

From https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10....88325419831351. Weren’t you saying something about the narrative?


This is true. However, there should be acknowledgment of the past, not rewriting it and pretending it didn’t happen as it did.


Agree with most, but disagree with some, but we already talked about it so there is no point of repetition.


Again, agree with caveats mentioned above, ie acknowledgement of the past before letting it be. Justification as it is now doesn’t cut it. Yuo can’t move on without realization and acceptance.


Definitely strongly disagree.

Since you are an expert on antisemitism in ukraine, I’ll eagerly await your cross examination of nazi collaboration and antisemitism in Poland, Vichy France, Italy, Sweden, the Baltic states, the Balkan’s.

No credible historian claims that there were no Ukrainian nazis. But you among others want to claim that any Ukrainian alive in the 40’s that wanted an independent Ukraine was an antisemite. At precisely the moment in time civil society in Ukraine was attempting to start peeling the scab off of that history. At precisely the time when Putin is trying to put fresh paint on Stalins legacy, the only legacy that could make even Hitler jealous. And that same evil tird is trying to pull the curtain over Ukraine, sealing up all the history good and bad yet again.

[Swede]

A really good clip on the whole sordid affair.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/IeQb5LDwxwQX/

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

Since you are an expert on antisemitism in ukraine, I’ll eagerly await your cross examination of nazi collaboration and antisemitism in Poland, Vichy France, Italy, Sweden, the Baltic states, the Balkan’s.

No credible historian claims that there were no Ukrainian nazis. But you among others want to claim that any Ukrainian alive in the 40’s that wanted an independent Ukraine was an antisemite. At precisely the moment in time civil society in Ukraine was attempting to start peeling the scab off of that history. At precisely the time when Putin is trying to put fresh paint on Stalins legacy, the only legacy that could make even Hitler jealous. And that same evil tird is trying to pull the curtain over Ukraine, sealing up all the history good and bad yet again.

Antisemitism existed long before Hitler came on the scene, it goes back to before the Middle Ages, a good way for the leadership to excuse their failures. The Russian empire and that included Ukraine especially was notorious for the pogroms that targeted Jews. Other European countries may have had an anti semetic bias, but they never reached that level.

Grizz

[ruffy71]

Except Germany of course. And way back in the day, France massacred quite a few Jewish people. And for lots of European countries, they just outlawed being Jewish. No Jews, no pogroms necessary.

Jewish people came to the lands of Ukraine with the Greeks over a thousand years ago. The Polish-Lithuanian empire gave Jews a fair amount of freedom in the middle ages, which is one reason the area had the largest European Jewish population.

But then over that thousand years, antisemitism in East Europe flared up over and over again. The history is brutal. There were hundreds of years where Cossack Ukrainians and Jewish Ukrainians were regularly rounded up and shipped off as slaves to Constantinople via Crimean Tatars. Cossacks rose up several times, and killed everybody on the steppes, poles, Jews, Tatars. Sometimes this suited the Polish King who wanted a buffer between him and the Tatars.

Brutal and vicious, but Ukrainians had been experiencing the same nasty business, over and over again for its entire history. Interestingly, one history I'm reading listed the time of the Mongol empire as the most peaceful. They just took over territory for the riches and the flow of trade goods. The take over wasn't gentle, but then they didn't much care about the daily lives of the people they conquered. Who da thunk, that Mongol rule was the good times?

Anyway, the history is fascinating, gory and troubling. Antisemtism persisted and persists to this day. Ukraine will need to be free of Putin, to try to account for it, educate their own people about it. Most people living in Ukraine now, have lived with the Soviet/Russian version of events. Ukraine needs to learn the actual history, good and bad. If Germany can do it, and be accepted among nations after what 'Germans' did. So can Ukraine. But not with Russia calling the shots. At least not with a leader like Putin. According to him Russia has never put a foot wrong, ever.

[KGB]

Both of the last two posts are absolutely correct. As an escapee from the socialist paradise and a jew, I can tell you that the antisemitism was on a government levels in former USSR. Jews had a quota on high school education like universities. They were forbidden to be accepted to certain places unless the parents had a special “connections”… As for Ukraine, the antisemitism there was present since dark ages. Have you ever read Taras Bulba(a famous story by a famous Ukrainian writer who is admired in Ukraine and former USSR) in its original language? Not the scripted version that we were thought in schools… Every second word there is “zhid”. Kike in English. Very offensive to Russian speaking Jews.
During the Second World War more Jews were turned to Germans for execution by locals in Ukraine than anywhere else. Even Baltic countries who didn’t like Jews very much were hiding them from Germans. Belorussians who are next door to Ukraine had the least amount of Jews killed because the ordinary people were hiding them risking their own life’s. I remember the stories the veterans were telling us when I was a kid.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by KGB

Both of the last two posts are absolutely correct. As an escapee from the socialist paradise and a jew, I can tell you that the antisemitism was on a government levels in former USSR. Jews had a quota on high school education like universities. They were forbidden to be accepted to certain places unless the parents had a special “connections”… As for Ukraine, the antisemitism there was present since dark ages. Have you ever read Taras Bulba(a famous story by a famous Ukrainian writer who is admired in Ukraine and former USSR) in its original language? Not the scripted version that we were thought in schools… Every second word there is “zhid”. Kike in English. Very offensive to Russian speaking Jews.
During the Second World War more Jews were turned to Germans for execution by locals in Ukraine than anywhere else. Even Baltic countries who didn’t like Jews very much were hiding them from Germans. Belorussians who are next door to Ukraine had the least amount of Jews killed because the ordinary people were hiding them risking their own life’s. I remember the stories the veterans were telling us when I was a kid.

I think your thoughts on the baltic and belorussian treatment of Jews is a bit rosy. I've even watched some video evidence from the baltic countries in the late 30's leading up to WW2. Not a lot of locals protecting Jews unfortunately.

[TheIceTitan]

Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine were the worst as far as the locals not needing German encouragement in order to kill Jews.

[Wolftrapper]

Originally Posted by TheIceTitan

Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine were the worst as far as the locals not needing German encouragement in order to kill Jews.

Slovaki wasn't far behind. Is Putin going there next?

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by TheIceTitan

Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine were the worst as far as the locals not needing German encouragement in order to kill Jews.

So the fact that the Ukraine president is a Jew means nothing? I guess. Times change.

[KGB]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

So the fact that the Ukraine president is a Jew means nothing? I guess. Times change.

Yep. Means nothing. We have plenty of bumholes among our people… How about George Soros?

[chasingtail]

Originally Posted by KGB

Both of the last two posts are absolutely correct. As an escapee from the socialist paradise and a jew, I can tell you that the antisemitism was on a government levels in former USSR. Jews had a quota on high school education like universities. They were forbidden to be accepted to certain places unless the parents had a special “connections”… As for Ukraine, the antisemitism there was present since dark ages. Have you ever read Taras Bulba(a famous story by a famous Ukrainian writer who is admired in Ukraine and former USSR) in its original language? Not the scripted version that we were thought in schools… Every second word there is “zhid”. Kike in English. Very offensive to Russian speaking Jews.
During the Second World War more Jews were turned to Germans for execution by locals in Ukraine than anywhere else. Even Baltic countries who didn’t like Jews very much were hiding them from Germans. Belorussians who are next door to Ukraine had the least amount of Jews killed because the ordinary people were hiding them risking their own life’s. I remember the stories the veterans were telling us when I was a kid.

Weren’t the Bolsheviks mostly Jewish and weren’t the Gulags mostly run by Bolshevik Jews? Didn’t they starve millions in Ukraine. It’s 1940 and you have 2 choices fight for the Soviets who killed millions of your people or fight against them for the other guy. Not much of a choice.

[KGB]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

Weren’t the Bolsheviks mostly Jewish and weren’t the Gulags mostly run by Bolshevik Jews? Didn’t they starve millions in Ukraine. It’s 1940 and you have 2 choices fight for the Soviets who killed millions of your people or fight against them for the other guy. Not much of a choice.

Yes and no. There were a lot of Jews who made the revolution possible. But they were not Bolshevicks, the vast majority were Socialist Revolutionary party and Trozkists. All of them were exterminated by bolshevicks after they took power. Did the Jews supported the Russian revolution? Of coarse they did, as a class of people who were constantly treated as a third class citizens, they bought into the promises of unity, brotherhood and equality of all and to all. The majority of people who were making the revolution possible were idealist believing that we all can coexist with peace and love and sing kumbaya every day….We all know how it played out later…

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

I think your thoughts on the baltic and belorussian treatment of Jews is a bit rosy. I've even watched some video evidence from the baltic countries in the late 30's leading up to WW2. Not a lot of locals protecting Jews unfortunately.

Pale of Settlement, goes back to czarist times. May Laws from the reign of Nicholas ll.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_o...n%20Federation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_La...%20of%20Russia.

Grizz

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by KGB

Yes and no. There were a lot of Jews who made the revolution possible. But they were not Bolshevicks, the vast majority were Socialist Revolutionary party and Trozkists. All of them were exterminated by bolshevicks after they took power. Did the Jews supported the Russian revolution? Of coarse they did, as a class of people who were constantly treated as a third class citizens, they bought into the promises of unity, brotherhood and equality of all and to all. The majority of people who were making the revolution possible were idealist believing that we all can coexist with peace and love and sing kumbaya every day….We all know how it played out later…

Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and a few others were Jewish. Socialism and Communism was a common response to the oppressions suffered by Jews and was promoted by some of those who successfully emigrated to other countries as well, creating a lot of unrest. Lenin , Trotsky and even Stalin adopted aliases to hide their true identity from the ever present secret police.

Grizz

[chasingtail]

Originally Posted by KGB

Yes and no. There were a lot of Jews who made the revolution possible. But they were not Bolshevicks, the vast majority were Socialist Revolutionary party and Trozkists. All of them were exterminated by bolshevicks after they took power. Did the Jews supported the Russian revolution? Of coarse they did, as a class of people who were constantly treated as a third class citizens, they bought into the promises of unity, brotherhood and equality of all and to all. The majority of people who were making the revolution possible were idealist believing that we all can coexist with peace and love and sing kumbaya every day….We all know how it played out later…

Well 11 out of 12 Concentration camps in the Soviet Union were run by Jews. I don’t think they are as innocent as we’re told. Couple good documentary’s “Europa” and “The greatest story never told” you can watch on Odysee gives a little different perspective on the history of WW1 and WW2.

[TheIceTitan]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and a few others were Jewish. Socialism and Communism was a common response to the oppressions suffered by Jews and was promoted by some of those who successfully emigrated to other countries as well, creating a lot of unrest. Lenin , Trotsky and even Stalin adopted aliases to hide their true identity from the ever present secret police.

Grizz

Socialism/communism really was an offspring of the French Revolution.

First Politburo was overwhelmingly Jewish. Even Winston Churchill wrote a newspaper article about it.

After the Georgian faction (Stalin et al.) took control, the Jews were clipped. Khrushchev said Stalin was a "dyed-in-the-wool" anti-Semite.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by TheIceTitan

Socialism/communism really was an offspring of the French Revolution.

First Politburo was overwhelmingly Jewish. Even Winston Churchill wrote a newspaper article about it.

After the Georgian faction (Stalin et al.) took control, the Jews were clipped. Khrushchev said Stalin was a "dyed-in-the-wool" anti-Semite.

I just happened on a book called The Rest of Us, per chance, that examines the history of Eastern European Jews that came to the US to escape mostly Russian tyranny. A fair share of them were socialists , communists and anarchists and they didn't abandon their ideology. Of course, Samuel Goldfish became Sam Goldwynn and went on to found a movie empire.

Grizz

[KGB]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

I just happened on a book called The Rest of Us, per chance, that examines the history of Eastern European Jews that came to the US to escape mostly Russian tyranny. A fair share of them were socialists , communists and anarchists and they didn't abandon their ideology. Of course, Samuel Goldfish became Sam Goldwynn and went on to found a movie empire.

Grizz

Yep, they believed in a “pure form”, utopian ideas of socialism that existed only in their books and minds. Real life proved them wrong, we all know that.
As for Goldwynn, I remember reading what he said about movie business: this is the only business where you get paid upfront before the customer even see the product and you keep the money regardless of if they liked it or not….

[KGB]

Originally Posted by TheIceTitan

Socialism/communism really was an offspring of the French Revolution.

First Politburo was overwhelmingly Jewish. Even Winston Churchill wrote a newspaper article about it.

After the Georgian faction (Stalin et al.) took control, the Jews were clipped. Khrushchev said Stalin was a "dyed-in-the-wool" anti-Semite.

Stalin was anti many nationalities. Chechens, Jews, tatars, Germans from the povolzhie region, some smaller north Caucasian tribes did not weather very well under his command… Jews were saved from a mass deportation to Siberia and far east by Stalin death. My grandma were telling me that there were echelons(very long trains) waiting at the Moscow and Leningrad’s train stations awaiting people…

[KGB]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

Well 11 out of 12 Concentration camps in the Soviet Union were run by Jews. I don’t think they are as innocent as we’re told. Couple good documentary’s “Europa” and “The greatest story never told” you can watch on Odysee gives a little different perspective on the history of WW1 and WW2.

I have never heard about that! And considering how much love Jews had towards them from Stalin himself- I seriously doubt that… The Boss of the prison camp was under the control of GULAG. GULAG had no Jews as officers, that was the policy back then. My grandpa spent 20 years there, he knew a few things about it but never told me anything since I was too young but told a few things to my dad who later told me….

[ruffy71]

This is interesting, and I'm glad it's staying civil, but for me it just reinforces the fact that history needs to be examined objectively, and accurately, and we all, the entire globe, have to take in the facts and the lessons.

But it must never be used to excuse, apologize for, or justify other evil deeds in the past, or most importantly in the present. That's kept all of us on an endless cycle of crap since we slept in caves.

[glen moa]

Looks like Putin is better than Trudeau.
https://youtu.be/4vaIlhFe9t8?si=Go8DLVzicdmAAGJB

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by glen moa

Looks like Putin is better than Trudeau.
https://youtu.be/4vaIlhFe9t8?si=Go8DLVzicdmAAGJB

I have no use for Putin, or Trudeau for that matter. But Putin has an excellent understanding of Trudeau.

Turdeau needs to resign!

BW

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

But Putin has an excellent understanding of Trudeau.

He sure didn't mince words, that's for sure!

[58thecat]

Putin is a monster and needs to be put down.

Our Turd is just a idiot and needs to stand down.


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