Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Guns & Ammo Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 06-29-2015, 07:31 PM
Trochu's Avatar
Trochu Trochu is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,594
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus32 View Post
Thank you. I am feeling like a bit of a broken record trying to explain how we maintain weapons in the military. I guess some people just can't take in the concepts we are doing here. I think it would be more of a insult to the Canadian tax payer if we did not have a life cycle plan and viewed them as disposable. The cost would be well over $6500 if we replaced them every time they got damaged.

Having parts, and a repair process is critical to keeping the rifle in service for 30 years.
It would appear you think Colt is providing a "life cycle" plan for repairing rifles "every time they got damaged". I'm sure there is a scheduled maintenance plan of sorts, a certain number of barrels per gun over the 30 years, but your posting like any time the gun gets damaged/wore out/needs maintenance/etc., it will just get serviced for free. Such costs are cearly not included in the $6,500.00, maybe there in lies the confusion as to why you think its an acceptable cost.
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 06-29-2015, 09:37 PM
Morpheus32 Morpheus32 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
It would appear you think Colt is providing a "life cycle" plan for repairing rifles "every time they got damaged". I'm sure there is a scheduled maintenance plan of sorts, a certain number of barrels per gun over the 30 years, but your posting like any time the gun gets damaged/wore out/needs maintenance/etc., it will just get serviced for free. Such costs are cearly not included in the $6,500.00, maybe there in lies the confusion as to why you think its an acceptable cost.
The spare parts, barrels and tooling are part of the price. The rebuild and depot level repair are part of the price over the lifespan of the rifle. so for the price, you get the rifle, all the parts you need for 30 years and the process to have depot ie factory level repair. If you just buy a rifle and have zero maintenance plans, how to you ensure the rifle is remains serviceable through its 30 years? Pay as you go? Your paying it forward with this option for the rifle. What happens if the rifle you buy is commercial off the shelf and the manufacture stops making it or the parts you need? How do you keep the rifles serviceable? who will do the repairs? How much will it cost? Have you had a factory repair job for your rifle? It takes months and the costs can be high. You have to have a plan how you will keep the rifle operational for the military. The rifle belongs to the military and is returned when a person leaves the ranger. They don't get to keep them.

All weapons are managed the same. We have pools of parts and a process to do repairs at the armourer and depot level. So a machine gun might cost $1000 but I am sure we have $5000 in parts, barrels and the 30 year lifecycle plan for rebuild. So why would we do it differently for a bolt action rifle? Our sniper rifles are managed the same way. In fact all weapons are done this way. Armourer repair and inspections are done by our military weapons technicians and depot is done by colt canada.

I am curious how you would maintain the operational capabilities of this rifle over 30 years. Buying a Rem 700 is not a guarantee of parts or maintenance.
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 06-30-2015, 04:41 PM
RatFink RatFink is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 135
Default

Cool rifle, but god that stock is awful. Put a proper walnut stock like the CZ entry or a pepper laminate like the Ruger.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 06-30-2015, 05:21 PM
catnthehat's Avatar
catnthehat catnthehat is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatFink View Post
Cool rifle, but god that stock is awful. Put a proper walnut stock like the CZ entry or a pepper laminate like the Ruger.
No matter whose stock was on the rifle if would have ended up that colour as per the people that had a hand in the build specs, which were the rangers themselves .
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 06-30-2015, 07:43 PM
RatFink RatFink is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 135
Default

I had an after thought that this was more of a function over form design choice! About the only place in the world that a military issued rifle isn't camouflaged.


Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
No matter whose stock was on the rifle if would have ended up that colour as per the people that had a hand in the build specs, which were the rangers themselves .
Cat
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 06-30-2015, 08:22 PM
Morpheus32 Morpheus32 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatFink View Post
I had an after thought that this was more of a function over form design choice! About the only place in the world that a military issued rifle isn't camouflaged.
As mentioned, not for fighting. The SAR tech rifle is orange and the Rangers wear a red hoodie and hat as a uniform so it kind of fits.
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 07-01-2015, 02:00 AM
sikwhiskey sikwhiskey is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Lethbridge
Posts: 2,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus32 View Post
The spare parts, barrels and tooling are part of the price. The rebuild and depot level repair are part of the price over the lifespan of the rifle. so for the price, you get the rifle, all the parts you need for 30 years and the process to have depot ie factory level repair. If you just buy a rifle and have zero maintenance plans, how to you ensure the rifle is remains serviceable through its 30 years? Pay as you go? Your paying it forward with this option for the rifle. What happens if the rifle you buy is commercial off the shelf and the manufacture stops making it or the parts you need? How do you keep the rifles serviceable? who will do the repairs? How much will it cost? Have you had a factory repair job for your rifle? It takes months and the costs can be high. You have to have a plan how you will keep the rifle operational for the military. The rifle belongs to the military and is returned when a person leaves the ranger. They don't get to keep them.

All weapons are managed the same. We have pools of parts and a process to do repairs at the armourer and depot level. So a machine gun might cost $1000 but I am sure we have $5000 in parts, barrels and the 30 year lifecycle plan for rebuild. So why would we do it differently for a bolt action rifle? Our sniper rifles are managed the same way. In fact all weapons are done this way. Armourer repair and inspections are done by our military weapons technicians and depot is done by colt canada.

I am curious how you would maintain the operational capabilities of this rifle over 30 years. Buying a Rem 700 is not a guarantee of parts or maintenance.
As i understand it, slowly but surely lol, the initial cost is licensing and tool up, for colt Canada, the initial cost is high because of this? Once production is in full swing, after the initial 1000 rifles, costs will drop.
Any competent gunsmith can and would give their left nut to get this contract, but I understand the govt wants some stability and reliability for the end product, hell, it only took them 30 years to get it done, I hope it works out for the Rangers.. Govt spent 2 billion on a useless registry for nothing, what's 50 mil for something that counts, peanuts in dip **** land.
__________________
"Unthinking respect for Authority is the greatest enemy of truth"
Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 07-01-2015, 02:02 PM
Morpheus32 Morpheus32 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sikwhiskey View Post
As i understand it, slowly but surely lol, the initial cost is licensing and tool up, for colt Canada, the initial cost is high because of this? Once production is in full swing, after the initial 1000 rifles, costs will drop.
Any competent gunsmith can and would give their left nut to get this contract, but I understand the govt wants some stability and reliability for the end product, hell, it only took them 30 years to get it done, I hope it works out for the Rangers.. Govt spent 2 billion on a useless registry for nothing, what's 50 mil for something that counts, peanuts in dip **** land.
The cost is normally fixed for the delivery of the product within the timelines. I don't have the contract nor the tender in front of me however that is normally how they do it. Delivery within the timelines laid out in the tender at a fixed price. So it might something like delivery of X rifles a month for Y number of months.

I think it will work out fine for the Rangers. The Enfields did there duty but in the end, parts had finally run out so they had to tender a replacement.
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 09-03-2016, 11:30 PM
bb356 bb356 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Rycroft
Posts: 21,548
Default

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...ract-1.3747107
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 09-04-2016, 08:12 AM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,326
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bb356 View Post
That's $4800 per rifle. Are they that good?
Reply With Quote
  #161  
Old 09-04-2016, 08:41 AM
Unregistered user Unregistered user is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,140
Default

What a joke.
__________________
Former Ford Fan
Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 09-04-2016, 09:08 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newview01 View Post
That's $4800 per rifle. Are they that good?
One must remember that our govt had to pay to get the licensing rights from Sako/Tikka, that comes with a hefty price tag.


Doesn't anyone remember the scandals of the past where things like hammers and light bulbs were acquired by the government at exhorbadant prices?

These rifles are a bargain compared to those items.
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 09-05-2016, 05:19 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: S.E. British Columbia
Posts: 4,579
Default

Seems like a very practical choice to me. Tikka is good gear. Lam stock. The Ranger's model has been cold tested.

Plus it'll take the NATO 7.62 as well as readily available hunting W308.

Any info on sights or optics?
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 09-05-2016, 05:29 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered user View Post
What a joke.
Not really, awesome weapon but it will need to be in the hands of the troops for a year or two to work out the bugs.
There will be issues as with anything new and exposed to what they put these rifle through.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 09-05-2016, 07:51 PM
Unregistered user Unregistered user is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
Not really, awesome weapon but it will need to be in the hands of the troops for a year or two to work out the bugs.
There will be issues as with anything new and exposed to what they put these rifle through.
How is it awesome? It's just a bolt gun, won't do anything the old smelly or any other off the rack bolt rifle will do. 5 grand a pop? Ooooch!
__________________
Former Ford Fan
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 09-06-2016, 12:43 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,500
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered user View Post
How is it awesome? It's just a bolt gun, won't do anything the old smelly or any other off the rack bolt rifle will do. 5 grand a pop? Ooooch!
Awesome as in new to those troops, anticipation of shooting the new rifle etc, perhaps your right old Lee could do the job but other variables play in, 7.62 or 308 is standard in our forces so supply should be there.
I remember when we phased out the FN's and the first crate of C7's arrived, we opened the wrapping, cleaned 'em, in varsol just to have some turn white ' ish in color, I remember the SgtMajor tearing us a new arse, then came the forestocks falling off, then came the training and off to the range just to have feeding issues, mag issues, on and on and on but we got through this and now got a battle proven weapon at what cost???
These fellas hopefully wont go through that process hopefully and enjoy the weapon issued to them...time will tell.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 09-06-2016, 01:17 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
Default

RED "highly visible" laminate.... Our Rangers lose a lot of rifles?? Can't see a brown rifle when they put them down in the snow? What army wants highly visible rifles? wait a minute... they wear red hoodies? It's a fashion statement. Cripes.... So they are what we are basing our sovereignty claims on?

Army surplus enfields did them for 50 years. Now they need $4800 bolt action rifles for bear defense and hunting. Not one of those is ever going to be fired at a Russian. Army specifies anything, add millions to the price. I swear, if they decided to just give them bear spray the price would be $1200 per can.

-Grumpy old man.
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 09-06-2016, 01:54 PM
marxman's Avatar
marxman marxman is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
RED "highly visible" laminate.... Our Rangers lose a lot of rifles?? Can't see a brown rifle when they put them down in the snow? What army wants highly visible rifles? wait a minute... they wear red hoodies? It's a fashion statement. Cripes.... So they are what we are basing our sovereignty claims on?

Army surplus enfields did them for 50 years. Now they need $4800 bolt action rifles for bear defense and hunting. Not one of those is ever going to be fired at a Russian. Army specifies anything, add millions to the price. I swear, if they decided to just give them bear spray the price would be $1200 per can.

-Grumpy old man.
Why wouldn't they have conspicuous rifles it makes perfect sense. Also they want to carry a good rifle and a 1000 dollar tikka is that. We don't need a helicopter style procurement with all kinds of contingency and spare part scenario and what happens in 30 years and all that. Likes it's some kind of continuing animal like a sea king
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 09-06-2016, 02:06 PM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,326
Default

I've priced flooring on the Suffield Base, and I can assure you that there is no price jump for the military. I priced competitively and still did not get the job. So there must be a good reason for these to be priced that high. I wonder if X amount of spare parts are shipped with each rifle.
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 09-06-2016, 02:10 PM
HighlandHeart HighlandHeart is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered user View Post
I'll bet one of those will cost twice as much as a C7 but I guess the gubby doesn't want our first line of defence toting scary army guns.
Without armorers and gunsmiths a bolt gun makes way more sense for the rangers.
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 09-06-2016, 02:34 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandHeart View Post
Without armorers and gunsmiths a bolt gun makes way more sense for the rangers.
Plus I suspect the most use these babies will get is the guys they are assigned to going hunting.
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 09-06-2016, 02:38 PM
Bergerboy's Avatar
Bergerboy Bergerboy is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,787
Default

Can you imagine if the military bought Tikka's instead of the Sako's? There would be shattered mags and bolt shrouds everywhere the first winter.
__________________
When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve the situation, but it will end the suspense.
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 09-06-2016, 02:58 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Maybe after the first winter they can buy the Lee #4's back at $12.000 bucks a pop, Ha.

Pretty hard to match the old work horse of good wood and real steel.

Probably too late at my age too be a ranger, nothing wrong with dreaming though.

Pal Don
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 09-06-2016, 03:22 PM
marxman's Avatar
marxman marxman is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy View Post
Can you imagine if the military bought Tikka's instead of the Sako's? There would be shattered mags and bolt shrouds everywhere the first winter.
Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 09-06-2016, 03:33 PM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: rollyview
Posts: 7,860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy View Post
Can you imagine if the military bought Tikka's instead of the Sako's? There would be shattered mags and bolt shrouds everywhere the first winter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman View Post
Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
yup, plastic bolt shrouds, plastic mags, aluminum recoil lugs...

they bought a real gem
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 09-06-2016, 03:37 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman View Post
Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
Holy crap, we are paying $4800 for plastic trigger guards??? LOL
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:02 PM
Bergerboy's Avatar
Bergerboy Bergerboy is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,787
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman View Post
Please tell me how you know that. Plus they are copy of Tikka's not Sako's.
By this.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/nation...nadian-rangers

Here it is – the new Sako rifle for the Canadian Rangers
__________________
When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve the situation, but it will end the suspense.
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:04 PM
Bergerboy's Avatar
Bergerboy Bergerboy is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,787
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o View Post
yup, plastic bolt shrouds, plastic mags, aluminum recoil lugs...

they bought a real gem
I forgot about the aluminum separate recoil lugs. Good thing they only need a minute of polar bear.
__________________
When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve the situation, but it will end the suspense.
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:30 PM
marxman's Avatar
marxman marxman is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy View Post
By this.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/nation...nadian-rangers

Here it is – the new Sako rifle for the Canadian Rangers
That article doesnt say anything about plastic bolt shrouds or magazines. It does say though that the rifle is based on a t3 ctr thats a tikka

Last edited by marxman; 09-06-2016 at 04:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:53 PM
Bergerboy's Avatar
Bergerboy Bergerboy is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: In your personal space.
Posts: 4,787
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marxman View Post
That article doesnt say anything about plastic bolt shrouds or magazines. It does say though that the rifle is based on a t3 ctr thats a tikka
No one in the entire thread said the rifle has plastic anything. Many aftermarket actions are based on rem 700s. They are not Remington products.
__________________
When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve the situation, but it will end the suspense.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.