Empty Cartridge forensics: Stanley Case

[CaberTosser]

I'm sure we had all heard about the claimed misfire of the Tokarev as it applied to Gerald Stanley's defense but I had not seen much in the way of the forensic evidence featured in any news articles. Then I looked it up following a friend noting the bulged 'bullet' (his term) and I was quite surprised by how definitive the photos that showed up were. Below are three photos that turned up in a Google search for photos of the cartridge, all of these photos were attached to news articles about the case. We can see in the close up of the spent casing in the dash vent that there is a bulge I the case that is not uniform, and in addition to that, the thing is not even a bottleneck case anymore! The cartridge was clearly fired when the weapon was not fully in battery. A cartridge that was fully seated in a chamber could not possibly wind up looking like that. I am surprised that this does not have more media attention given to it, but then again most of the people reporting on it would not know what they are looking at to comprehend its significance. My post here is not to hash up the politics of the case, its merely to note that this evidence does support his claim that the firearm misfired/hang fired, despite the rarity of such events (especially when tied to a death).

Keep it about the gun and the ammo people, this one isn't about the politics save perhaps for how something so incontrovertible as this physical evidence is can be virtually ignored/ practically swept under the rug.






A better view of the bottleneck ammunition and some spent cartridge cases. The difference is staggering.

[WCTHEMI]

Looks more like a brass case to me then a lacquered steel case


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[bat119]

Something malfunctioned and nobody has come up with an explanation

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by WCTHEMI

Looks more like a brass case to me then a lacquered steel case


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Its not uncommon to have more than one variety of ammunition for ones firearms.... Its the spent cartridges shape that is the prominent detail.

The photo that Bat119 shared came up in my search but I excluded it due to it not having an evidence marker adjacent it or anything in the photo correlating it to the case. The other pics were taken in the Ford Escape so they would be hard to refute.

[WCTHEMI]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Its not uncommon to have more than one variety of ammunition for ones firearms.... Its the spent cartridges shape that is the prominent detail.

I realize that. But 7.62X25 is most commonly military surplus only. Something funny definitely happened though.


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[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by bat119

Something malfunctioned and nobody has come up with an explanation

Looks to me that it was only partially chambered when it fired, which would tend to support Stanley. Also, the bottle neck is gone. A firing pin wouldn't be able to ignite it at that point, so the hang fire theory stands. Doesn't seem like rocket science. Betting there was poor powder combustion as well.

Grizz

[WCTHEMI]

Originally Posted by bat119

Something malfunctioned and nobody has come up with an explanation

That one definitely appears to be surplus ammo. Maybe fired out of battery? “Cheap” surplus gun and “cheap” surplus ammo, it may be possible.


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[coastalhunter]

Firing pins are also longer than average, I believe to guarantee a discharge in situations where you've pulled your sidearm (war).

They seem to be the AK47 of the pistol world (during the time).

Like I mentioned in another thread, I've had mine fire when I slammed a mag in when the slide was back. Coupled with no safety, I'm not at all surprised this happened.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

.

Keep it about the gun and the ammo people, this one isn't about the politics save perhaps for how something so incontrovertible as this physical evidence is can be virtually ignored/ practically swept under the rug.

Ignored??? The reason he was acquitted was largely due to the fact that the deformed brass was the result of a hangfire, was it not.

[Fish along]

In the stuff that I read In different articles, it would have you believe that cartridge was out of battery and caused HANGFIRE, and it also means that the bullet would have had far less power and trajectory ,one guy stated somewhere that hed seen bullets going of when they were accidentaly dropped on rough surfaces, but somewhat harmless. Also a police officer who testified at the trial about HANGFIRE said that he could make this HANGFIRE occur again,by somehow making the primer go off so many seconds before the bullet fires which would be somewhat like firing of one of the old time muskets,but the wait would have been longer in this case.

[Fish along]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Ignored??? The reason he was acquitted was largely due to the fact that the deformed brass was the result of a hangfire, was it not.

Yes this was a huge factor.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Ignored??? The reason he was acquitted was largely due to the fact that the deformed brass was the result of a hangfire, was it not.

I meant by the media, not the courts. The media had too much to benefit by focusing on all of the other political spin on the case, it would be counterproductive to quell all that indignation by reporting facts that would only serve to suppress the victimization narrative.

Cliffs notes: the bulk of the press dropped the ball. Whether on purpose or by incompetence, the outcome was the same with masses of people needlessly enraged.

[hogie]

http://panow.com/article/737563/anat...-stanley-trial

More on the ammo being used. Crown expert had a dud and a blown out case when testing the ammo. Faulty ammo. Be nice to know how many were fired.

Too bad that have to go to the local papers in Saskatchewan to get more of the truth. No big media outlets reported on the ammo testing.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I meant by the media, not the courts. The media had too much to benefit by focusing on all of the other political spin on the case, it would be counterproductive to quell all that indignation by reporting facts that would only serve to suppress the victimization narrative.

Cliffs notes: the bulk of the press dropped the ball. Whether on purpose or by incompetence, the outcome was the same with masses of people needlessly enraged.

The press have never really had much interest in the truth.

[Pioneer2]

Looks like the same stuff I have.Returned two crates to Milarm as it was so corroded it would misfire and even hangfire.Several years back.

[ctd]

The RCMP Firearms Examiner says that he could not duplicate the firing out of battery or the hang fire. Therfore could not explain how the pistol fired or the casing came to be in the condition it is in.

There is a Retired RCMP Firearms Forensic examiner that lives in Edmonton that says he thinks he knows what happened, once he gets access to the firearm he can reproduce it.

Some times certain groups want the truth and sometimes there is a agenda behind a persons actions.
The RCMP examiner had a tough time making a SKS fire full automatic (slam fire) Which has to do with a case in Ontario where a owner turned their SKS into the Police after it fired in full auto not wanting to get in trouble. It was stated that this owner did not properly or fully clean their firearm prior to use.

It was possible that the slam fire/ full auto would have been caused by the firing pin being stuck due to storage grease used, that was not cleaned out of the bolt carrier.
Others have experiance this under similar circumstances. Yet the Expert had failed to be able to reproduce this after carefully examining the firearm.

So in the Stanely case It is easily to see that the round fired out of battery. The round was not fully seated in the chamber. Even a amateur with a little bit of knowledge could understand the round fired partially out side of the chamber. How the expert could not explain this makes me scratch my head.

The above info was what I have read from all he news articles.

The reasons why it fired out of battery.
1 hang fire.
2 slam fire out of battery
3 fraggles

[CaberTosser]

The mishandling of the firearms muzzle direction after the hangfire is about the only thing I can fault Stanley with here. I don't disagree with a rural person arming themselves when a group of ne'er-do-wells show up, regardless of their ethnicity.

I have not had a hangfire in a firearm, but have had plenty of misfires in explosive actuated tools such as Hilti's. I don't know if those were from weak firing pin strikes or what but I had many not go off. Every one of them I would wait a good minute leaving the tool in a safe direction before puomg out the strip of charges. I also didn't look down the barrel to see what was wrong with it!!

[traderal]

Back in the early 90's I picked up one of these handguns for I believe about 135 and some of the surplus ammo. It was constantly malfunctioning and immediately got rid of it. Even though it was cheap I figured it was unsafe to have something like that around. Hard to believe this was used as a military sidearm, though it does look like an early Browning knock off.

[KGB]

I had a hangfire on my sks rifle a few years ago. Loaded up 5 rounds, 3 went boom and then silence....I turned the gun on its side still holding it up on a shoulder and then -bum! It fired. That happened a few months after I got my PAL and I remembered what the guy was teaching us. So I was just holding th3 gun as usual.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I meant by the media, not the courts. The media had too much to benefit by focusing on all of the other political spin on the case, it would be counterproductive to quell all that indignation by reporting facts that would only serve to suppress the victimization narrative.

Cliffs notes: the bulk of the press dropped the ball. Whether on purpose or by incompetence, the outcome was the same with masses of people needlessly enraged.

You're right, absolutely mishandled by the media. This kind of event is what they live for so they'd never allow the facts to interfere with a good story

[lilsundance]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

You're right, absolutely mishandled by the media. This kind of event is what they live for so they'd never allow the facts to interfere with a good story

Of course they dropped the ball. When in the last 40 years have you not seen them intentionally not report all the facts, especially when it concerns firearms. And to report all the facts would in fact cool the story rather quickly as well as keep those people who are on the fence about firearms in this country on that fence.

[Carriertxv]

The progressives, media and the special interest groups know the real facts of what happened however it doesn’t fit their narrative of racism that’s why it’s not in the media and being sweeped under the rug.
None of the so called journalists that I have listened to have said anything other than it was an old white guy who murdered a young Indigenous man out for a drive with friends who only needed help and was found not guilty by an all white jury.
Same narrative that the clown and company are saying as well. The progressives motto “ never let a good crisis go to waste”

My son has three Tokarev’s and I have never liked shooting them as they don’t fit my hand. They were a cheaply made Soviet pistol designed to shoot cheap ammo like all of the commie guns.
Last time I shot one of them something very similar happened only the slide closed before the cartridge fired. That was the last time I’ve ever shot them and they have been in his safe since.

[rem338win]

My experience with Tokarevs is contrary to those given so far. Mine was very accurate, reliable and easy to disassemble and clean.

The casing deserved more time with the experts and the firearms should have been given further examination.

It is an investigators job to prove or disprove, and given the weight of the case.....

[Mulehahn]

The problem with asking people who fire thousands of rounds a year is they generally take care of their equipment, purchase quality ammunition and store them properly. They are not going to be the ones with issues. Now take a 60 year old firearm with 60 year old ammunition, store them in far from ideal conditions for years, probably do zero maintenance and then take them out, load the pistol and try to fire it all as fast as you can... I am pretty sure there would be issues.

If the RCMP expert fired several round (who knows how many so let say 100) and 2 had serious issues under lab conditions that is 2%. I highly doubt the expert fired 100 rounds though, 20 seems more reasonable. That means 10% of Stanley's ammunition was compromised. Without the bulged case that is more than enough to make me think that Stanley may be telling the truth. The bulged case on the dash just proves that something definitely did go wrong and he did not mean to fire the gun.

[Pioneer2]

Shoots quarter size groups off the bags at 15 yards with handloads 13gr /Win 296 and either a Hornady 85-90 bullet.New Polish model.They are quite accurate fixed sights and all.

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

Shoots quarter size groups off the bags at 15 yards with handloads 13gr /Win 296 and either a Hornady 85-90 bullet.New Polish model.They are quite accurate fixed sights and all.

Don't doubt that in the slightest but as previously mentioned you take pride in your firearm and therefore take care of it and feed it quality ammo. The firearm In the case was kept in a shed and fed the cheapest junk ammo that money could buy. Like lots of farm guns it was considered a tool not a target gun or collectible.

[bat119]

Stanley said after pulling the trigger for the third time the barrel was sticking out indicating the last round had been fired he then removed the mag.

If the 3rd cartridge jammed the bolt open and he removed the mag causing the breech to almost close but not completely lock up would the hammer fall by pulling the trigger?

[propliner]

Originally Posted by bat119

Stanley said after pulling the trigger for the third time the barrel was sticking out indicating the last round had been fired he then removed the mag.

If the 3rd cartridge jammed the bolt open and he removed the mag causing the breech to almost close but not completely lock up would the hammer fall by pulling the trigger?

No, the trigger disconnect will not allow the trigger to release the hammer unless the action is within 1-2mm from being closed. The cartridge case was a good 8-10mm out of the chamber when it fired.

Also, the hammer/pin geometry won't allow them to connect when the gun is that far out of battery.

I believe the RCMP gun expert testified that he fired 26 rounds of Mr. Stanley's ammo in testing. Not a lot.

[hogie]

Originally Posted by propliner

No, the trigger disconnect will not allow the trigger to release the hammer unless the action is within 1-2mm from being closed. The cartridge case was a good 8-10mm out of the chamber when it fired.

Also, the hammer/pin geometry won't allow them to connect when the gun is that far out of battery.

I believe the RCMP gun expert testified that he fired 26 rounds of Mr. Stanley's ammo in testing. Not a lot.

If he only fired 26 and and had 1 dud as he called it and another that blew the case apart causing a jam then it's good odds he would have had a hangfire. Maybe he gave up too soon.

[bat119]

Originally Posted by propliner

No, the trigger disconnect will not allow the trigger to release the hammer unless the action is within 1-2mm from being closed. The cartridge case was a good 8-10mm out of the chamber when it fired.

Also, the hammer/pin geometry won't allow them to connect when the gun is that far out of battery.

I believe the RCMP gun expert testified that he fired 26 rounds of Mr. Stanley's ammo in testing. Not a lot.

That's what I thought the only plausible explanation was a hangfire as the trigger can't be pulled when a cartridge is out of battery, the bulged case is proof that the cartridge was not completely in the chamber.