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  #121  
Old 02-19-2018, 04:55 PM
Newellknik Newellknik is offline
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Good for you ! I was waiting for a. Lab litter to come up
When the Griff came up , and I cracked . I often think
what if he was a bust , I have seen exactly 2 other Griffs
Out in the field in 11 years .
I may still get a lab. They may be hyper in their first
year but usually settle down just nice.....
Can't say that about all versatile pointers .....
Good Luck ,post pics
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  #122  
Old 02-19-2018, 05:05 PM
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1. Plan to buy a dog from a reputable kennel that breeds proven hunting, hunt test or trialling dogs. Don't sweat the puppy price, it's going to be expensive, but not as expensive as buying a cheap puppy from a back yard breeder with health or joint issues.
I spent a year researching breeders, and then put a deposit down and waited close to a year for a pup, because I was so impressed with the breeder and the references from his customers. The last thing that I asked was the price of the dog, and by then I had already made up my mind. The ironic thing, is that his price was much lower than many other breeders.

I am looking forward to seeing the lab that sns2 purchased, and to having him hunt with my dog. it will be interesting to see them hunt side by side.
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  #123  
Old 02-19-2018, 05:27 PM
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And that is exactly what I did
You can't just leave it at that. Details and pictures please.
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  #124  
Old 02-19-2018, 05:31 PM
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Pup is in Texas. Won't be here until mid April.
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  #125  
Old 02-19-2018, 10:03 PM
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Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!..what breeder.
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LIFE IS TO SHORT TO HAVE AN UGLY LOOKIN DOG .....GET A LAB
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  #126  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:19 PM
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this pup better turn out or I will never hear the end of it
big congrats buddy. once you go black you never go back
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Pup is in Texas. Won't be here until mid April.
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  #127  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:21 PM
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I've done my best to line up the finest consultants I can. LOL.
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  #128  
Old 02-20-2018, 05:25 PM
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Enjoy the new pup when it gets here! Don’t forget to post pics and updates!
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  #129  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MK2750 View Post
Considering no dogs are "very good" at grouse, I find the whole thing a little strange. I don't doubt the little Springers are awesome Pheasant dogs but a 2 for geese is a bit of a stretch. As mentioned above, not all Labradors are suitable for a full hunt of large honkers.

As much as I love Labradors, a well trained Chessy is a superior hunter at nearly every game. Overall they are just closer to their roots and everyone I have met are just full of hunt and determination. If not for their possessive and sometimes unpredictable personality they would be the ultimate gun dog, a part from looks of course.
MK as a Chesapeake owner of the best gundog ive ever owned (including past labs), i respect this statement. Especially coming from a devout Lab guy. Such an intelligent comment man. The ONLY thing that a lab will outperform a chesapeake in (Generally) is the speed game...and the pretty looking dog test.However, i quickly realized a Chesapeakes marking ability alone trumps any downfalls they might possibly have. And i fully agree its because the breed has managed to stay truer to its roots. Ive also learned that im not sure its actually unpredictability, as opposed to needing to be the alpha male or female. My mutt gunner isnt unpredictable at all. He is a ***** to other young male dogs that trot over to ‘say hello’, with their tails up and ears forward challenging gunners authority. I know gunners going to have a chat with a challenging male. Not unpredictable at all, just a dudes dude if you get my drift. Chesapeakes KNOW theyre tough, and therefore you better respect them or theyll remind you. Hands down the best ‘nanny dog’ ive ever owned as well.
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  #130  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
An interesting conclusion from the table is Sringers, labs and Chesapeaks were scored as the 3 top bird dogs with total gross points of 24. All others were behind dragging their tails.
To me that top 3 is entirely what is expected.
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  #131  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by M.C. Gusto View Post
That chart posted is a joke. Anyone wanting to know the facts just look into the top qualifying cover dogs, field trial or retriever trials. There will be your answer.
Ex. The top grouse and woodcock dogs are almost always EP and ES. The top retrievers are labs followed by Chessie. The continental breeds are usually the do it all between the two.
Lots of money at stake with competition, no ones wasting time and money on a breed that wont get it done.
Lol no. Sure a great research starting point, but saying a successful trialing breed makes a successful field dog is a silly thing to point towards
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  #132  
Old 02-22-2018, 10:47 AM
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I like to see research posted on this site and due to no fault of the OP some is better than others. The chart that was posted that shows the Chessie as the 3rd. best bird dog got my attention. Having spent many years participating in retriever trails, and training versatile dogs. I think I have only seen one Chessie and he looked more like a greyhound.

The second one was owned by a friend and that dog (I don't think the poor thing was ever trained) wouldn't pick up a cripple.

Here is my point, if you want to get a dog, good for you, learn how to read the pedigrees and find out what they mean (all the information that is on the pedigree) and choose carefully from there.

Dogs have more variability within a breed than between breeds.

They all started as wolves!
Trialing results shouldnt dictate a hunters selected, real world gundog. 40lb black ‘labs’ that run like whippets and dominate hunt and trial tests that were designed for that specific breed to succeed, and more specifically the american style breed standards, shouldnt be your final deciding factor
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  #133  
Old 02-22-2018, 11:26 AM
angery jonn angery jonn is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
An interesting conclusion from the table is Sringers, labs and Chesapeaks were scored as the 3 top bird dogs with total gross points of 24. All others were behind dragging their tails.
Thank god for waterfowl, otherwise it might not even be worth paying to feed one of the 3 breeds

To bad this conversation is about pheasant dogs and not waterfowl...
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  #134  
Old 02-22-2018, 11:47 AM
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Default Brittany

I have a Brittany, he's still a pup, 7 months, I'm training him but anyone who can give me some pointers (no pun intended, but does work quite well here) would be very much appreciated. Anyone with experience who wants to come hunting bunnies and give us both some advise would also be helpful.
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  #135  
Old 02-22-2018, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by wildside2014 View Post
MK as a Chesapeake owner of the best gundog ive ever owned (including past labs), i respect this statement. Especially coming from a devout Lab guy. Such an intelligent comment man. The ONLY thing that a lab will outperform a chesapeake in (Generally) is the speed game...and the pretty looking dog test.However, i quickly realized a Chesapeakes marking ability alone trumps any downfalls they might possibly have. And i fully agree its because the breed has managed to stay truer to its roots. Ive also learned that im not sure its actually unpredictability, as opposed to needing to be the alpha male or female. My mutt gunner isnt unpredictable at all. He is a ***** to other young male dogs that trot over to ‘say hello’, with their tails up and ears forward challenging gunners authority. I know gunners going to have a chat with a challenging male. Not unpredictable at all, just a dudes dude if you get my drift. Chesapeakes KNOW theyre tough, and therefore you better respect them or theyll remind you. Hands down the best ‘nanny dog’ ive ever owned as well.
I was reading this bit on a duck hunting forum, not exactly this but similar.

A Labrador believes; These humans feed me, shelter me and love me. They must be Gods!

A Chesapeake believes; These humans feed me, shelter me and love me. I must be God!
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  #136  
Old 02-22-2018, 01:49 PM
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Looks like a good flushing dog to me

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
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  #137  
Old 02-22-2018, 02:34 PM
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What a cutie- picked a name yet?
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  #138  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:47 PM
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What a cutie- picked a name yet?
Chief.

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  #139  
Old 02-22-2018, 04:58 PM
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Chief.
Not exactly politically correct these days.
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  #140  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:18 PM
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Not exactly politically correct these days.
My son and I went through the names of all the major league sports teams. We settled on Chief (Kansas City Chiefs) and King (LA Kings). I hate the Kings cuz Pocklington sold Gretzky there. So, Chief it is!
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  #141  
Old 02-22-2018, 05:20 PM
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In Alberta, pointer all day long!!!!
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  #142  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:51 PM
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What do you suppose would happen if Hungarian partridges were added to the mix? They are one of the birds that we actually hunt in Alberta. As well, if grouse refers to ruffed grouse, adding sharptails would change the scores again. The chart is interesting, but it isn't really representative of bird hunting in Alberta.
the area I live only has sharp tailed grouse and Hungarian partridges, I have to drive 4 hours north for ruffed grouse, and spruce grouse, and 5 hours southwest for pheasants,
my young Chesapeake bay retriever does very well on both sharp tails, and huns, I bought 6 pheasant roosters and set them out in a field, she was confused about the first 3 but it was game on for the other 3
as for hunt tests and field trials a dog is only as good as its trainer,
my female chessie this past fall retrieved over 300 birds , geese, and ducks, cripples, and dead, and big nasty ganders, at just under 5 months old she retrieved her first snow goose, and had never even seen one before or even smelled one
I went out with a local outfitter just to get her some hunting time,
she didn't get her JR hunt test status last summer, that was no fault of hers
I blame myself and lack of experience and knowledge on that,
as for the hunt tests, I cant afford a trainer at $900 to $1200 a month, but if I could , I have no doubt that my female chessie could go the distance to grand master at the national level,
so if one dog is better then the other , look at the trainer and who is handling the dog, before you judge the dog, also a lot has to do with the breeding and blood lines, if you learn to read and understand pedigrees, and pick the best you feel you can, 1/2 the battle is won right there, the rest is up to you and your training ability, and that is never ending
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  #143  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:03 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Diesel_wiesel View Post
the area I live only has sharp tailed grouse and Hungarian partridges, I have to drive 4 hours north for ruffed grouse, and spruce grouse, and 5 hours southwest for pheasants,
my young Chesapeake bay retriever does very well on both sharp tails, and huns, I bought 6 pheasant roosters and set them out in a field, she was confused about the first 3 but it was game on for the other 3
as for hunt tests and field trials a dog is only as good as its trainer,
my female chessie this past fall retrieved over 300 birds , geese, and ducks, cripples, and dead, and big nasty ganders, at just under 5 months old she retrieved her first snow goose, and had never even seen one before or even smelled one
I went out with a local outfitter just to get her some hunting time,
she didn't get her JR hunt test status last summer, that was no fault of hers
I blame myself and lack of experience and knowledge on that,
as for the hunt tests, I cant afford a trainer at $900 to $1200 a month, but if I could , I have no doubt that my female chessie could go the distance to grand master at the national level,
so if one dog is better then the other , look at the trainer and who is handling the dog, before you judge the dog, also a lot has to do with the breeding and blood lines, if you learn to read and understand pedigrees, and pick the best you feel you can, 1/2 the battle is won right there, the rest is up to you and your training ability, and that is never ending
I agree on both traning and breeding. I have hunted over quite a few dogs, and I have shot over many more during NAVHDA tests, and some dogs have much more natural ability, and learn much faster than others. Some dogs become great hunters with lesser skilled trainers, and some dogs will never be better than average, regardless of the training. My personal weakness is a lack of experience in training dogs, but I was fortunate to have a pup that learns quick, and has a lot of natural ability, so despite my shortcomings as a trainer, he is a very productive hunter. Other dogs of the same breed that I have hunted over did not produce as well despite months of professional training. They are more obedient, and they look more polished, but there weren't as productive at finding and working birds. As far as the pointer or retriever preference, if I was hunting primarily waterfowl, I would have a retriever, but for pheasants, sharptails, and Hungarian Partridge, I prefer a pointer. The more open the terrain, the more I prefer the pointer as you can have multiple dogs covering a lot of area, and the handlers don't have to be in shooting range of all of the dogs. I have hunted over as many as four pointers and we just watched the dogs, and when one went on point, they would remain until we walked over into range to flush the bird. Of course a retriever can be effective on open terrain, but I prefer not having to keep within shotgun range of the dog in open terrain. And in tight terrain either pointers or retrievers can also be effective, and I prefer to keep the dog much closer in that situation, regardless of the breed. I haven't hunted over both pointers and retrievers at the same time very often, so I am looking forward to hunting my dog alongside the pup sns2 is waiting for. It should be interesting.
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  #144  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:28 PM
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I haven't hunted over both pointers and retrievers at the same time very often, so I am looking forward to hunting my dog alongside the pup sns2 is waiting for. It should be interesting.
Is this even possible? I can't imagine a flushing dog even noticing a point let alone honoring it. When mine are that close to a bird there is no slowing them down.

From a training stand point, hesitation is the last thing you want on a flusher or the bird will be out of range. I can't imagine another dog busting a point would be good for a young pointer either.

I actually considered a pointer this type but didn't figure they could hunt with Labs. Have you tried this before and how did it work?
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  #145  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:55 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Is this even possible? I can't imagine a flushing dog even noticing a point let alone honoring it. When mine are that close to a bird there is no slowing them down.

From a training stand point, hesitation is the last thing you want on a flusher or the bird will be out of range. I can't imagine another dog busting a point would be good for a young pointer either.

I actually considered a pointer this type but didn't figure they could hunt with Labs. Have you tried this before and how did it work?
I have only seen this first hand a few times, most recently with my dog and a toller pup, and the toller basically ran around and played, and found no birds. But I have actually seen hunting programs where the outfitters used a combination of the two to hunt pheasants. For the most part the pointers ranged further and found the birds, and then the retrievers flushed them. I don't know how long it took to get them to work together, but it seemed to work for them. As to a flusher not hesitating, some labs point, and some people actually breed with this in mind, so not everyone shares your viewpoint. I wouldn't put a flushing dog with an inexperienced pointing pup, but I am not against at least trying it with a more experienced pointer. If it doesn't work out, it shouldn't mess up an experienced dog. It will be interesting to see which dog finds more birds, and whether one dog will be more hesitant to go into heavy cover. Not that two dogs will prove a lot about the two breeds, but it should still be interesting.
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  #146  
Old 02-22-2018, 09:19 PM
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Hey!....

You got a lab!!! Good job!

I might even hunt with you now... showing all that common sense and all.

If your going to flush it tree ruffles...... lab!
Sharpies and Huns ...... labs will learn quickly that they need to range different for them.
Wild pheasants....? Good lab will learn to point-freeze em, or run cutoff if it’s a Wiley one and cris crosses its scent trails.

Goose patch in Dec...? Lab
Duck patch in semi froze water....? Lab

Guard dog...? Lab

Hiking pillow ....? Lab

Kid sitter....? Lab

Running buddy....? Lab

Linoleum or baby highchair cleaner...? Lab

Bear tag-chaser (while u climb a tree... or in my case jump off the cliff into the river)...? Lab

Foot cleaner.... knife wound cleaner....? Lab

Pork chop theif...... damn lab!

You have picked a loyal life friend.

My first lab, Bessie, consistently outperformed teams of dogs at the old. Brooks pheasant festival..... and wife got her from the pound in Lethbridge.

My current lab, Sadie the deaf, has run cutoff, flushed and retrieved a couple of provincial record roosters for friends. One retrieve was an insane 200 yard chase down of a cripple in the thick nasties.

This dog was a rescue dog my wife got for us.


Good choice them labs!
Stay away from dogs that got tough to spell names.
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  #147  
Old 02-23-2018, 05:09 AM
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Is this even possible? I can't imagine a flushing dog even noticing a point let alone honoring it. When mine are that close to a bird there is no slowing them down.

From a training stand point, hesitation is the last thing you want on a flusher or the bird will be out of range. I can't imagine another dog busting a point would be good for a young pointer either.

I actually considered a pointer this type but didn't figure they could hunt with Labs. Have you tried this before and how did it work?
I cannot hunt my Springer and pointer together. The Springer would do her thing but keep an eye on the pointer. As soon as he went on point she would rush over and flush the bird, frustrated the heck out of the pointer. Now my brother hunts the Springer and we head in separate directions.
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  #148  
Old 02-23-2018, 06:09 AM
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Elk, for that pups first fall, I will be going in a different direction than you. When you find birds, you can call me and tell me where you are. I will head in that direction toot sweet! I will also return that favor. But Chief will only be a precocious little pup, so he won't need the distraction of playmates, and my focus will be on keeping him within gun range. Now, if we arrive shortly after the bird box has done his duty, then all bets are off, and I will be happy to have him scoop any and/or all birds that Butch is pointing. Butch won't be happy, but he is so playful he likely won't bite, though he may give you the stinkeye.
As you say, it should be interesting.

Hunting pointers and flushing dogs together as a brace seems illogical to me, but hey I'm Ukrainian.
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  #149  
Old 02-23-2018, 06:36 AM
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Smile i think Diesel has it figured out.

Who is on the other end of the leash makes at least 50% of the difference in dogs. I had a friend, he's gone now and he had a disease called kennel blindness. But he was an awesome trainer and "finished" over 33 black labs, and some of them were not very good dogs. (A finished dog has a field trail champion in front of its name) so Diesel has that figured out.

When reading the pedigree, when you have been around long enough to know some of the dogs and handlers you can decide for your self if a dog owned by a rookie like Elk here, and the dog does well, is that a better bet to breed to than a dog trained and run by a pro? You have to make up your own mind.

You can't beat real hunting experience as some of the ops have said.

And for extra marks; I was sitting in the gallery of the Canadian National Retriever trails the last time they were in Logan Lake, with an old friend from the Niagara Pen club and we were watching his young BLF run in the National, and I asked him why he wasn't running his dog. He said " You can't run your own dog in a stake like this" Rainbow Molly won! He was right.

So it also matters who is running the dog in tests. Handler errors count for many of the dog'e problems. In the case of good dogs, I'd say it accounts for all of them.

Thus reading a pedigree is more complex than it looks.

Good post guys, remember it doesn't matter what you buy, you have to train your dog.
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  #150  
Old 02-23-2018, 06:40 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Elk, for that pups first fall, I will be going in a different direction than you. When you find birds, you can call me and tell me where you are. I will head in that direction toot sweet! I will also return that favor. But Chief will only be a precocious little pup, so he won't need the distraction of playmates, and my focus will be on keeping him within gun range. Now, if we arrive shortly after the bird box has done his duty, then all bets are off, and I will be happy to have him scoop any and/or all birds that Butch is pointing. Butch won't be happy, but he is so playful he likely won't bite, though he may give you the stinkeye.
As you say, it should be interesting.

Hunting pointers and flushing dogs together as a brace seems illogical to me, but hey I'm Ukrainian.

For the first fall, it would not be a good idea, I am thinking once your pup has a season or two of hunting behind him, and he has figured out his role. With two experienced dogs, it would be interesting to watch two different approaches in the same terrain, on the same birds.

As for the hunting/testing debate, there are similarities, and there are differences. I only have experience with the NAVHDA, and I am learning just by being involved as a volunteer. Some handlers have well trained dogs, but they set up poorly to flush the bird, and the result is that there is no safe shot, and an opportunity is lost. I see the same thing when hunting, some hunters do not put themselves into a good shooting position when the dog finds a bird, and the result is no shot on the bird. The difference is that in the testing, if the dog creeps or breaks momentarily because of poor training, the dog fails the test, while a hunter that is properly positioned can still kill the bird if his dog does make a small error. I am primarily a hunter, so testing isn't as important to me as it is to a breeder that wants his dog to score the highest amount possible, so my priority is keeping my dog safe, and being able to read my dog, and then set up, so that there is a good shot opportunity. And I do find, that the longer that I hunt over a dog, the better I get at reading what he is sensing, and what the bird is doing, so we can hunt more effectively as a unit.
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