Quality Trout Fisheries in Alberta

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

what poll are you looking at dave? if you add up the two options saying guys would like the opportunity at a chance to catch a fish over 22 inches, there is 60% asking "yes please".

You are getting into the conversation late. I learned a new word when we discussed it. It's called a "push poll" designed to get the results that you wanted to get. Better if you go back and read about it yourself.

Do you really think that +40% of all Alberta anglers want C&R?

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

The answer is simple.............practice conservation on your own without any regulations forcing you to do so. That way you don't have to force your values on anyone else.

PS. Hopefully you don't use the "quality" philosophy of only keeping the big fish.

Dave i have the highest respect for you.
But i stated my concern for a lake i truly love....i know not a trout issue...but still much the same....im thinking a few reg changes arent bad idea to keep the lake producing big fish.
I keep very few fish

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

You are getting into the conversation late. I learned a new word when we discussed it. It's called a "push poll" designed to get the results that you wanted to get. Better if you go back and read about it yourself.

Do you really think that +40% of all Alberta anglers want C&R?

i have been watching this the entire time. i have only spoken up to clarify a fact or two when i knew one. mostly this is a debate based entirely on emotion and not logic and just like a similar one, i try to steer clear of the opinionated nonsense and stick to the facts.

as for thinking whether or not 40% plus of anglers want C&R....well, the poll clearly shows that. now ill ask you.....do you really think that the guys asking for the chance at bigger fish are asking for every lake available? one out of 20 lakes would be plenty to provide what people are asking for. ill point it out again.....i live very close to bullshead and am thankful every day that i have something so good so close to home. given that i have met so many guys from so far away, i know that i am not alone on its approval.

now ill ask you again....what have you got against big fish? have you ever caught a 25 inch rainbow?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

and if you dont mind me asking.....i get it you want to eat fish, but what have you got against big fish? if you have ever caught one, youd know how much more excitement is involved in it. maybe not so much for eating, but for a huge number of fishermen, its the fun of catching that makes guys go to the lake.

I never said that I didn't catch big trout I said that I don't eat them. The trout that I take to eat are pan sized and I let the big ones go. sunshine says that the big fish taste as good as the pan sized ones but I disagree. Besides, that's the way that it is in most places that I have ever fished..........you take the eatin sized ones and leave the big spawners in the lake..........EVEN if they can't spawn.

I'm from out east so I don't get all giddy about a 20" trout and start posting pictures of it all over the internet. The lakes that I fish have that sized trout in them.........granted they aren't as easy to catch as the ones in a "quality" lake but I enjoy the challenge more that way.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

It's about making it easier for people to catch bigger fish and if you'd like to think of it differently to make yourself feel good about what you want then go for it!

So tell me what stocked lakes are for in for the first place Dave? It's about making it easier for people to catch trout (and for Dave to take his little tiddlers home). If you'd like to think of it differently to make yourself feel good about what you want then go for it!

[ishootbambi]

^^^ ok then, if you know they are more fun to catch.....and given that with the fishing pressure in alberta it is very unlikely to happen under current regulations, why do you think that the very large group of anglers wanting a quality fishery should be denied? i view it like trophy management for big game. some guys would prefer to have the opportunity to have a chance at larger fish/game. why shouldnt they be able to have that chance. remember that noone is asking for the entire province to be changed....just a small portion. why cant they have what they want as well?

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

I am not sure what you mean Speckle?? I posted the following:

Sorry, but which of these is not a lake? Beauvais is definitely a lake - au natural - and so is Lees. Beaver Mines is a lake that was made bigger by a earthen dam. Michelle and Mami are technically reservoirs I guess, but I fail to see your point.

As for where Brood stock goes, in PP1 the lakes you listed are probably right, however the one I mentioned was from Beaver Mines which is in ES1 (not Terry's area).

Not all brood stock has worn fins, etc. Here is one from Nicholas Sheran in Lethbridge. Again, not me, but a fishing buddy, hooked this +-24" Brown. He really wanted to keep it, and I told him to go for it, but in the end he let it go. When I asked him why he said it was just too nice a fish to take home (he fought it for over 1/2 an hour and it nearly spooled him at one point, running clear across the lake.



By the way, if you want to talk about scuds....



Glad I wasn't wet-wading that day!

checked out.. and crossed off list .. i think ishootbambi crossed two of your list and Terry crossed afew more

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

as for thinking whether or not 40% plus of anglers want C&R....well, the poll clearly shows that. now ill ask you.....do you really think that the guys asking for the chance at bigger fish are asking for every lake available? one out of 20 lakes would be plenty to provide what people are asking for. ill point it out again.....i live very close to bullshead and am thankful every day that i have something so good so close to home. given that i have met so many guys from so far away, i know that i am not alone on its approval.

now ill ask you again....what have you got against big fish? have you ever caught a 25 inch rainbow?

So you are saying that this poll accurately reflects what all Alberta anglers want our fisheries to be and 40% want all of our still waters to be C&R?

No, I don't believe that "quality" guys want every lake turned into a "quality" one but they would like as many as possible as close to them as possible. IMO the 17 "quality" lakes that they already have is high percentage wise relative to how many "quality" anglers and lakes that there are in Alberta.

I have nothing against catching big fish, if someone wants to put the time and effort required to catch one. If someone wants to fill a dugout and catch big fish all day, great for him. Just don't come around here trying to turn the lakes that I fish into fish farms.

I don't know for sure if I've ever caught trout at least 25" long. I can think of one particularly big trout that I caught at Parry Sound that should have been at least that big.

[smitty9]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

So you think that all Alberta anglers should give up their fishing lakes for every self interest group that is around? I suppose that you are willing to give up some of our lakes to PETA.........I'm pretty sure that they're against any type of fishing. Maybe there are scuba clubs that'd like to sink a ship in a lake to explore and for safety reasons boats shouldn't be allowed on it anymore.

After a province wide campaign by a special interest group(s) Police Outpost Lake was turned into a "quality" lake. We'll never know if that's what the users of the lake wanted or not. It might just as well have been every Tom, Dick and Harry UT guy in the province that railroaded that one through. Now what..........you don't like the guys that got railroaded complaining? Maybe everyone should just bend over and smile for you guys.

If you can't catch a big trout or you don't want to take the time and effort to catch one then why should that be anyone else's problem but your own?

THANK-YOU for, not, well, "proving" per se, but reinforcing my point. Slam dunk. Home run.

You're a textbook example of this attitude I talked about. How many lakes south of Calgary are stocked with trout? How many of them allow 5 fish per day? Do I need to go to Barry's Fishing Guide to illustrate this.

And yet, you can't share one more lake. So Bullshead is it? That's the end all to be all eh? Can't have one more specially managed lake, that will just be the 2012 apocalypse for ya? lol

Anyways, I digress. Its right of SRD to try and locate "new" or "dead" lakes because of your attitude.

By the way, I am actually for more put and take lakes, more quality fisheries, just more fisheries. More pressure on lakes, to take some off the streams.

What my post was trying to accomplish was to simply ask to adjust the percentages of current, existing fisheries. I know that's way to much to ask of you HD...

I'll completely admit my ignorance here; but I am willing to make the educated guess that when it comes to the province's pothole rainbow trout stillwater fisheries management, wouldn't it be fair to say that 95% or better are the standard 5 fish per day, bait allowed type lakes?

All I am asking for is say, can we look at 90%? No? How about 93%? How about 1-3 quality lakes with an hour's drive of Calgary or Edmonton?

Your answer is clear: "NOPE! take your special elitist interests and shove it and/or start from scratch."

Well done there HunterDave.

By the way, simply because of tradition or even by greater numbers, doesn't mean the 5 a fish day dinker crowd isn't their own special interest group too.

Just sayin',
Smitty

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

^^^ ok then, if you know they are more fun to catch.....and given that with the fishing pressure in alberta it is very unlikely to happen under current regulations, why do you think that the very large group of anglers wanting a quality fishery should be denied? i view it like trophy management for big game. some guys would prefer to have the opportunity to have a chance at larger fish/game. why shouldnt they be able to have that chance. remember that noone is asking for the entire province to be changed....just a small portion. why cant they have what they want as well?

I think that you should get out more often.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by smitty9

By the way, I am actually for more put and take lakes, more quality fisheries, I am simply asking to adjust the percentages.

I'll completely admit my ignorance here; but I am willing to make the educated guess that when it comes to the province's pothole rainbow trout stillwater fisheries management, would it be fair to say that 95% or better are the standard 5 fish per day, bait allowed type lakes.

All I am asking for is say, can we look at 90%?

Just sayin',
Smitty

No problem..........SRD can adjust the percentages...........

300 stocked lakes...........28 C&R and "Quality" lakes = about 10%. There, you have it!

+200K anglers...........10% "quality" lakes = 20K "quality" anglers?????????

= GIVE SOME LAKES BACK!!!!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

^^^ ok then, if you know they are more fun to catch.....and given that with the fishing pressure in alberta it is very unlikely to happen under current regulations, why do you think that the very large group of anglers wanting a quality fishery should be denied? i view it like trophy management for big game. some guys would prefer to have the opportunity to have a chance at larger fish/game. why shouldnt they be able to have that chance. remember that noone is asking for the entire province to be changed....just a small portion. why cant they have what they want as well?

Well, if you support the creation of hunting farms then I totally understand why you'd want fish farms as well then.

[Speckle55]

food for thought if the numbers go down by 20000 per year and you have 200000 anglers in province and you make it to hard for your average angler to catch and keep a fish .. dont worry about it because you will have no funding in 10 years and the clubs will have to do all the stocking by thems selfs.. did I tell you about Europe

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Well, if you support the creation of hunting farms then I totally understand why you'd want fish farms as well then.

ok, sorry i asked. in the past when asked a question you have answered using reason and logic and facts, but not this time. the numbers on the poll have really remained unchanged from day 1 but you can keep denying it all you like. i expected better dave, but if you are going to be silly about it ill bow out.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ok, sorry i asked. in the past when asked a question you have answered using reason and logic and facts, but not this time. the numbers on the poll have really remained unchanged from day 1 but you can keep denying it all you like. i expected better dave, but if you are going to be silly about it ill bow out.

So you are saying that this poll accurately reflects what all Alberta anglers want our fisheries to be and +40% want all of our still waters to be C&R?

I take it that you don't see the similarities between hunt farms and fish farms.

[huntsfurfish]

Spec

"checked out.. and crossed off list .. i think ishootbambi crossed two of your list and Terry crossed afew more "

Ok now we know they can produce large fish years ago. So lets enable that to for the future!

Check again and see, most large fish caught were in early 90s and earlier were they not?

How many recently even in the last ten years?

Its OK ive gotten use to you not answering the important questions. So I dont expect an answer on this one either. But it would be nice

[huntsfurfish]

Gee Dave you are not even from here and you want it your wayLOL

Dont want to share dave, got it.

Dont want to improve things, understood. LOL

Feel you speak for the province. Ok LOL

Dave is right about it all.LOL

Dave is living on fantasy island.

[huntsfurfish]

Dave are you a bowhunter by any chance? And do you hunt during the archery season?

[huntsfurfish]

Dave doesnt want more quality lakes because as that happens more people will realize how good it really is and want more changes.

More and more people I talk to are wanting better fishing(not smaller). Dave, tosh, spec, talk to the people in this area. Ask anyone, when was the last time you caught a fish (trout-stillwater) around Lethbridge and area?

Might have to look up some creel surveys if there are any recent ones.

[Speckle55]

Hunt i ask you if there was a chance .. and those lake all had fish that big so if a Judge ask me if there was a Chance that someone could catch a fish that big i would have to say yes.. end of post period....


just because yours and my chance isn,t as good as some doesn,t mean that there could not be one in lake because past history show it can happen and even Terry is not at lake all the time and even if a club gets some records from members who fish the lake ..they do not get them all from the Albertans who fish any given lake..

if you take away one Anglers right one year(no big deal its the ice anglers not me) then later another 5 years later(no problem its bait anglers not me) then later another (no problem it fish keepers not me) five years later( spin caster no problem not me) then no fly anglers(wait thats me ))

What have i done !!!!

PETA wins and all Anglers Lose

be careful what you wish for you may get it

[Freedom55]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Spec

..."Its OK ive gotten use to you not answering the important question. So I dont expect an answer on this one either.[/SIZE][/I][/B]

The pointy heads and the lofty masters are no longer interested in anything posted by others. This diatribe has been reduced to a contest of egos, basically between the same fellas who argued this very subject some months ago with a few moderates chiming in from time to time, joining the conversation but generally being put on ignore. It would seem that more than a few of us log onto this page just for the read, and it is obvious that the longer this continues unabated, the more people will log on for that reason.
Certainly the advertisers are having a ball during the flogging.
You and I (and others) are not certified experts so our opinion is neither solicited nor valid until after a head has rolled into the basket.

Free (from censure)

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

checked out.. and crossed off list .. i think ishootbambi crossed two of your list and Terry crossed afew more

Crossed off what list? What did you "check out"? Please write in complete sentences. I have no idea what you are saying half the time and it is very frustrating.

Are you saying that they are not lakes - i.e. crossed of the "lake list"? Or are you saying that you can catch 5lb rainbows at the lakes I mention, therefore they are crossed of the "tiny trout only list"?

[huntsfurfish]

If there was a good mix in each area, there could be good fishing for most everyone.

If that mix was say 5 any size, 2 over 16, 2 over 18, 1 over 20 or 22, and maybe even a catch and release. There would be something for everyone and only one would not allow for harvest.

Average sizes would increase on all lakes, including probably 5 any size because it would likely put more pressure on the last 3 types.

Id bet our bios could make it work and select the best suited lakes for each catagory.

In addition, more of the lakes could be 5 any size, until the population and fishing pressure dictated that more of them could be absorbed into one of the quality catagories.

[Pudelpointer]

You know, I do not have a problem with the 5 fish rule, but the size needs to change. How about 5 under 12"? That appears to be the vast majority of what is being caught in those lakes right now, so the kids can fish, the meat hunters can slaughter 5 a day, and a small but improved percentage of fish get to grow big - once they pass the 12" threshold.


To address a comment attributed to T.Clayton re: Bullshead trout maximum size:

Yes it is true that there is a high mortality of big fish at Bullshead. It is also true that up until recently, it was unlikely for trout to live more then 3 or 4 years. The reason for this is the stress of spawning (or lack thereof). This is one of the reasons that SRD is moving towards only stocking triploids in a lot of lakes. The reason triploids grow bigger, faster, is completely related to the fact that they do not (attempt to) spawn; they do not waste the energy trying to find a place to spawn where there isn't one, and they live longer because of it.

So, in one sense TC is correct about the max size of Bullshead fish, but as the number of triploids in the lake increases and non-triploids decreases, the maximum size of the fish will only get bigger (if they are not bonked once they reach 20"). It will not surprise me if a 10 lb fish is caught there soon.

[huntsfurfish]

one other good thing that may come out of this thread besides keeping it "out there"

Might have to get more involved in making these lakes happen.
That will involve talking to fellow angler at the lakes and off as well.

Get an "education' program started - benefits of quallity fisheries.

Get in on meetings - local and abroad. Clubs and fisheries.

That should help get the ball rolling.

Encourage others to do the same.

All or even part of it will help get r done!

[Speckle55]

Pudel ... i checked your posted lakes and found that all but 1 lake had rainbows at one time in that range and that the others that you gave names are not lakes(ponds)....
also in post is where the Hens were stocked so anyone saying that a hen was caught in lake other than those listed is a fisherman;;;

[huntsfurfish]

"You know, I do not have a problem with the 5 fish rule, but the size needs to change. How about 5 under 12"? That appears to be the vast majority of what is being caught in those lakes right now, so the kids can fish, the meat hunters can slaughter 5 a day, and a small but improved percentage of fish get to grow big - once they pass the 12" threshold."



Excellent idea Pudel.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Creating fish farms in order to grow fish bigger to catch will never be accepted by any ethical sportsman, let alone be a legitimate reason for changing P&T lakes.

Great misdirection attempt once again.

So a put and take lake that has trout averaging 9 inches is a great legitimate fishery for Dave...but a lake with delayed harvest and an average 16 inch trout is a fish farm in Dave's head.

LOL.

Do ethical fishermen kill baby fish in your world Dave?

LOL

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

So you think that all Alberta anglers should give up their fishing lakes for every self interest group that is around? I suppose that you are willing to give up some of our lakes to PETA.........I'm pretty sure that they're against any type of fishing. Maybe there are scuba clubs that'd like to sink a ship in a lake to explore and for safety reasons boats shouldn't be allowed on it anymore.

After a province wide campaign by a special interest group(s) Police Outpost Lake was turned into a "quality" lake. We'll never know if that's what the users of the lake wanted or not. It might just as well have been every Tom, Dick and Harry UT guy in the province that railroaded that one through. Now what..........you don't like the guys that got railroaded complaining? Maybe everyone should just bend over and smile for you guys.

If you can't catch a big trout or you don't want to take the time and effort to catch one then why should that be anyone else's problem but your own?

LOL

More of the same...the gerbil wheel is spinning but the gerbil has gone to the big cage in the sky...

Choo Choo!

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Pudel ... i checked your posted lakes and found that all but 1 lake had rainbows at one time in that range and that the others that you gave names are not lakes(ponds)....
also in post is where the Hens were stocked so anyone saying that a hen was caught in lake other than those listed is a fisherman;;;

Thank for clarifying your post(s) Speckle.

I disagree with the "pond" description for ANY of the lakes I listed. Lees Lake is probably the smallest and it is indeed a lake. Down the road is Burmis Pond (a pond). Michelle Reservoir is a Lake sized reservoir - definitely not a pond. Beauvais and Beaver Mines are definitely Lakes.

Nicholas Sheran is the only body of water I have mentioned that could be considered a "Pond".

Where are you finding the lakes I mentioned described as "Ponds"? Something is wrong there...

As for your last comment, why would someone who catches a brood stock fish be any less of a fisherman then someone who fishes the stocked ponds? Or a trophy lake for that matter?

You asked about 4 or 5 lb trout, and I answered. Records from 1962 mean nothing to today's situation or discussion. In fact, it would re-enforce the argument that all of the lakes mentioned have the potential to produce large fish - a potential (which you yourself stated was most important in choosing any lake for "quality management") that they are currently NOT living up to!


I stated earlier that if temperatures and oxygen allow, ALL of our trout lakes (again, save for a few very cold alpine lakes) will grow BIG fish in a very short time, IF managed properly (i.e. stocked at a low rate and harvest is kept low, aerated if required). ALL. I repeat, to be clear, ALL. [I should make a disclaimer here, there are a number of lakes that will not grow Big Fish in a Short Time, but they will grow Big Fish if given enough time - for example many lakes in the NE area of the province - but they will still grow big fish if not over-fished]

Productivity is NOT an issue in Alberta's stillwaters - oxygen, temperature, stocking rates (both natural AND man made), types of fish stocked and harvest rates ARE the issues.

We are discussing the possibility of changing a couple of these; namely stocking rates and harvest regimes. The government is changing to triploid trout on their own, for reasons already described in others' posts.