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  #31  
Old 03-29-2018, 03:40 PM
oldgutpile oldgutpile is offline
 
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Last fall I made a 1 day trip into 400. There was as many enforcement vehicles there as there was recreation users. Possible more!
If we had put half of that resource to work five years ago, we wouldn't be in this mess. I am solidly with the ENFORCEMENT vote. Crack down on the abusers and leave some access. Who the hell are we preserving this for if we close everything down? And you FOOT ACCESS ONLY crowd can wave your banners all you want, but get to the age where your mobility is limited, and you can sit on the outside looking in, like the rest of us! I am still far from the age of retiring, and I have enough back issues that even the thought of doing another back-pack hunt hurts. I remember my parents and grandparents enjoying this country in their retirement, and I would like to do the same. Not just looking at the back-country with a spotting scope.
Dont give the Y2Y crowd and the politicians free reign to "preserve" this as they see fit without a fight.
My summer camping trip this past year with the grandkids was an absolute slap in the face. Our new Castle Park area and the restrictions that came with it; No bb guns, bows, slingshots, etc., etc, etc......The list of "no's" was endless. This type of park designation is maybe what all you foot-only advocates are looking for.
Our camping area that was normally thriving with people, was deserted, as more informed campers had deserted the area to go where they could do things they enjoy. At the end of the day, who are we preserving this for? All the Y2Y sponsors out of the U.S. who can now sit back and relish the thought that they have saved us from ourselves?!
Let's see some resources put forth for enforcement, rather than a blanket wide closure of activities.
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  #32  
Old 03-29-2018, 04:10 PM
NCC NCC is offline
 
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x1000 on what Old Gut Pile says. We already have the parks, The Willmore, Siffleur, the Whitegoat, Blackstone, Wapiabi, Bighorn, and many other areas that are off limits to ATV's. Enforce the rules we have instead of catering to the small number of people that want to keep the rest of us out of the bush. There are plenty of areas to go if you want to get away from people and ATV's.

From what I've witnessed, the hunting is no better in the areas with no ATV access.
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  #33  
Old 03-29-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by st99 View Post
x2, and could had new regulations like no tire with tread over 3/4"
This and outlaw snorkels on ATV's on public land. I believe they are illegal in some US jurisdictions.
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  #34  
Old 03-29-2018, 04:41 PM
Taco Taco is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Newview01 View Post
Yes, it sure is. It also seems to cater to all outdoor groups. I am surprised you agree with it.

There ya go, see what happens when you make *******ed assumptions based on limited information.

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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
I wonder if the author would defend his passion of angling if this recreation was being restricted and discussed ?

The environmental impact of angling is real, there is the issues of overfishing, pollution, littering, ext....

There are experts who warn that if we continue to allow recreational angling there will be more species at risk or even extinct...

We probably should restrict angling or even shut done, especially in the pristine Eastern Slopes to allow future generations to take pictures and play angling games on electrical devices...
Don't both he and many others including me are keenly aware of what happens if the pure strain native species population slide is not reversed pdq.
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  #35  
Old 03-29-2018, 07:37 PM
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Bushrat Bushrat is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
I wonder if the author would defend his passion of angling if this recreation was being restricted and discussed ?

The environmental impact of angling is real, there is the issues of overfishing, pollution, littering, ext....

There are experts who warn that if we continue to allow recreational angling there will be more species at risk or even extinct...

We probably should restrict angling or even shut done, especially in the pristine Eastern Slopes to allow future generations to take pictures and play angling games on electrical devices...



You sir need a Snickers... Your shooting passion will be next, do you really think the general public wants ranges or you to discharge your weapons on crown land ? News flash, they don't.... Your group has it's own issues and problems, just like the group we are discussing...

Allowing the snowflakes to remove recreational activities is not the answer... Enforcement of current laws and stiffer penalties must be tabled and discussed and user groups need to bind together... Divide and Concur is the path we are taking.
Trying to drag hunters and fishermen who have been hunting and fishing these areas for oh maybe a century and a half or more before quads arrived on the landscape especially when all the damage began with the appearance of quads on the landscape, it was fine for a few years, quads were few, they were light and not very powerful, as quads evolved, got more powerful, bigger, heavier and louder so did the damage that evolved and the type of riders they attract, it became a free for all and now it has come to a boiling point.

Betting most of this crap wouldn't be happening and fishermen and hunters wouldn't be losing access if OHV's hadn't been invented. Lots of outdoor recreationists see The OHV community as the reason they are losing access.

You guys are your own worst enemies. You say 5% are causing the problem, I guess the other 95% are just putting around sightseeing and picking up garbage. My experience of what I see out there is at least at a minimum 50% of riders are a problem. Every other batch of riders I see are ripping and tearing and using their quads as they are advertised to be used, that's the express purpose for why they buy them, they have no intention of putting around quietly on their 1000cc 120 horsepower quad. If the OHV community wants other groups to support them then they must be first and foremost to set an example and proactively go after the bad apples of their community. I've seen little of that happening except for a few organized groups making an attempt, which is ignored by the mainstream quad users who see them as fudds. If quadders want to quad into the future they better get their ducks in a row and clean up their act from within their community before they point fingers at other recreationalists.
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  #36  
Old 03-29-2018, 08:59 PM
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^^^^^ well said Bushrat. I grew up spending my summers camping and fishing Livingstone and Porcupine in the late seventies / eighties. I watched the evolution of outdoor activities since the introduction of the ohv to the landscape. Nowadays seems many outdoor enthusiasts can only entertain themselves with a quad ride through the mud🙁. Prime example was last summer when the fire ban/ ohv ban was on. I’ve never seen the hills so quiet 😀😀. Hardly a soul camping up the Oldman. I suspect most people haven’t been shown all the other types of activities out there to pass the time. Shows me most people can’t be bothered with the outdoors with out a bonfire to stand around and an ohv to ride around on.
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  #37  
Old 03-30-2018, 07:00 AM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
Trying to drag hunters and fishermen who have been hunting and fishing these areas for oh maybe a century and a half or more before quads arrived on the landscape especially when all the damage began with the appearance of quads on the landscape, it was fine for a few years, quads were few, they were light and not very powerful, as quads evolved, got more powerful, bigger, heavier and louder so did the damage that evolved and the type of riders they attract, it became a free for all and now it has come to a boiling point.

Betting most of this crap wouldn't be happening and fishermen and hunters wouldn't be losing access if OHV's hadn't been invented. Lots of outdoor recreationists see The OHV community as the reason they are losing access.

You guys are your own worst enemies. You say 5% are causing the problem, I guess the other 95% are just putting around sightseeing and picking up garbage. My experience of what I see out there is at least at a minimum 50% of riders are a problem. Every other batch of riders I see are ripping and tearing and using their quads as they are advertised to be used, that's the express purpose for why they buy them, they have no intention of putting around quietly on their 1000cc 120 horsepower quad. If the OHV community wants other groups to support them then they must be first and foremost to set an example and proactively go after the bad apples of their community. I've seen little of that happening except for a few organized groups making an attempt, which is ignored by the mainstream quad users who see them as fudds. If quadders want to quad into the future they better get their ducks in a row and clean up their act from within their community before they point fingers at other recreationalists.
I had used other user groups to demonstrate how recreational activities are being divided and targeted one at a time. Divide and concur is the easiest system to dismantle user groups and create infighting like we are witnessing with the ATV subject.

You mention your views of if these machines were never invented you feel this subject wouldn't be an issue. Prior to the ATV, these areas were accessed with vehicles, these units as well evolved with larger horse power, bigger tires and the same idiots behind the controls.. I remember my first experiences in the Castle area, there were a few dirt bikes but majority of machines were modified trucks digging craves and tearing it up...

Interesting you say that 50% of ATV users are abusers.... What is abuse ? Is this a visual thing or factual ? A group of riders bombing around, sticking to designated trails, enjoying themselves and respecting the environment to myself is NOT abuse. To others it may seem different.

You indicate that the ATV crowd must police themselves to have other user groups support their cause. I don't see the hunting community nor the angling community doing this, so the idea is good but the reality is not.

I too went to the rock pile last year while the fire and ATV bans were in place, it was quiet and felt strange actually... I did miss having the Ranger with too throw the fishing pole, chainsaw and picnic basket in the back...

IMO we need to enforce existing laws, not restrict recreational activities in this beautiful province.
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  #38  
Old 03-30-2018, 08:21 AM
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shootermcgavin shootermcgavin is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post

You indicate that the ATV crowd must police themselves to have other user groups support their cause. I don't see the hunting community nor the angling community doing this, so the idea is good but the reality is not.
I see anglers and hunters police each other all the time. We always debate ethics and fair chase. I can bet if you pulled out a barbed treble hook on the bow River, somebody might say something or call you in. Go into a hunting / archery shop and brag about 120 yard archery shot on your first season. Somebody might say something..
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2018, 11:01 AM
beltburner beltburner is offline
 
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all users leave a footprint.
all nice fishing spots are littered with hooks line and garbage
all good hunting spots are littered with garbage, nails in trees,make shift tent floors.
taking a picture of garbage left over from a massive grad party and trying to blame ohv's is just plain stupid.
posting pictures of trails that have been destroyed by floods is also stupid. you better ban nature at that point.
People who jump on the banwagon instead of looking for solutions are incredibly selfish.
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  #40  
Old 03-30-2018, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
Trying to drag hunters and fishermen who have been hunting and fishing these areas for oh maybe a century and a half or more before quads arrived on the landscape especially when all the damage began with the appearance of quads on the landscape, it was fine for a few years, quads were few, they were light and not very powerful, as quads evolved, got more powerful, bigger, heavier and louder so did the damage that evolved and the type of riders they attract, it became a free for all and now it has come to a boiling point.

Betting most of this crap wouldn't be happening and fishermen and hunters wouldn't be losing access if OHV's hadn't been invented. Lots of outdoor recreationists see The OHV community as the reason they are losing access.

You guys are your own worst enemies. You say 5% are causing the problem, I guess the other 95% are just putting around sightseeing and picking up garbage. My experience of what I see out there is at least at a minimum 50% of riders are a problem. Every other batch of riders I see are ripping and tearing and using their quads as they are advertised to be used, that's the express purpose for why they buy them, they have no intention of putting around quietly on their 1000cc 120 horsepower quad. If the OHV community wants other groups to support them then they must be first and foremost to set an example and proactively go after the bad apples of their community. I've seen little of that happening except for a few organized groups making an attempt, which is ignored by the mainstream quad users who see them as fudds. If quadders want to quad into the future they better get their ducks in a row and clean up their act from within their community before they point fingers at other recreationalists.
This is a false statement right here! before OHV's hunters and fishermen used to get into the back country with trucks, and if you think it never happened you are a hypocrite. and the pics that nacho put up I'm guessing that those trails were put there by logging, gas/oil. he must have rode his quad into these areas to take the pics as the one pic has his machine in the bottom of the pic. then the pic with him standing in the wash wasn't made from OHV's. It won't be long now and every user group will lose out.
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  #41  
Old 03-30-2018, 01:41 PM
Taco Taco is offline
 
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I prefer burrito over nacho rzrboy
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  #42  
Old 03-31-2018, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RZR View Post
This is a false statement right here! before OHV's hunters and fishermen used to get into the back country with trucks, and if you think it never happened you are a hypocrite. and the pics that nacho put up I'm guessing that those trails were put there by logging, gas/oil. he must have rode his quad into these areas to take the pics as the one pic has his machine in the bottom of the pic. then the pic with him standing in the wash wasn't made from OHV's. It won't be long now and every user group will lose out.
I’m hypocrite. I’ve 4x4 in them areas in the past when I was young and DUMB. Nowadays I look at the land a little differently. The old days are gone my friend. Time for new attitude. If you don’t recognize this then for sure your privileges will be removed from you before your eyes. If you think it’s ok to leave a huge foot print behind then fill your boots. But please stop whining about it unless you do something to help the situation. Oh and BTW mocking Taco because of his name shows us all your maturity level. Are you in grade two?
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  #43  
Old 03-31-2018, 06:41 AM
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Passthru Passthru is offline
 
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Originally Posted by RZR View Post
This is a false statement right here! before OHV's hunters and fishermen used to get into the back country with trucks, and if you think it never happened you are a hypocrite. and the pics that nacho put up I'm guessing that those trails were put there by logging, gas/oil. he must have rode his quad into these areas to take the pics as the one pic has his machine in the bottom of the pic. then the pic with him standing in the wash wasn't made from OHV's. It won't be long now and every user group will lose out.
And before trucks there were horses, and before that you walk in and pack the animal out. That's weird. Even today you can do these things. Without gasoline
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  #44  
Old 03-31-2018, 08:54 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I enjoyed last year's hunting season since it give me a chance to go out on foot,,, of course my friend and I both had quads and pick-up trucks incase we ended up with the big one,,, good thing for this since we needed both units to pack a nice bull Elk out of the bush.

I'm still some what mobile, but my long time friend is facing challanges in his age,,, my other 3 friends are in the same boat,,, they enjoy the out-doors even with thier disabilities,,, getting out there is what its all about.

Harvesting game, fishing, sight seeing, bon-fire Smoky dog cooks,,, and just relaxing,,, the OHV's allow for this.
There easy to use, store and put away, easy to load & pack and ALL of families are thrilled that us OLD FATS can still have something to do.

We all pitch in fixing and maintaining trials, most of us belong to the Big Horn ATV Society, it's all about fixing the Hummingbird, Paradise, Onion LK trails along with all of those behind the Big Horn Dam.

We do this for ALL user groups since its about sharing and giving back,,, we do this with our own funds,,, we clean up camp sites for free,,, it seems that road access folks like to leave garbage behind,,, not the majority of them,,, but the few do,,, 1 or 2%.

No big deal, ain't worth our time complaining since its faster picking up after our fellow brothers & sisters.

I still like mountain biking, archery season, Harvesting, OHV'ing, walking, camping, sight seeing mostly, and traveling frugal,,, no Provincial or National Parks for me since I save those entrance fee funds for food and gas to get to places.
The funds we save on camping allows us to bring our family & friends out West.

I was able to travel 2 X's across Canada and 2 X's across the USA for a full year on less than $17.000 Cnd funds with fuel, food, lodging included.

Crown lands, Walmart, Casino's Macdonald, National Forster, and Gas Stations, didn't spend 1 dime for camping for a full 355 days,,, those saved funds went to fuel, food, and distance.

Any Who, my plan is to remain the same, stay with in my budget, camp and live as close to free as I / we can.
Enjoy what we can, hopefully Alberta can be more of this for those of us who work hard/ wize,,, and take advantage of our crown lands with ALL user groups.

The world is full of lots of things we don't like,,, there's nothing wrong with this, I find it best for me / us to take care of the categories we like the most, improve on them, and pitch in when and where we can.

Got to go, it's traditional archery time on some crown land to day, pick up some garbage if I find any,,, lawn chair & bon fire.

Life is grand if this is where we put our sights.

Don

PS: If the AO spelling check folks wish to chime in on my crappy spelling and miss matched sentences, have at it.

LOL
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  #45  
Old 03-31-2018, 09:09 AM
RZR RZR is offline
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I’m hypocrite. I’ve 4x4 in them areas in the past when I was young and DUMB. Nowadays I look at the land a little differently. The old days are gone my friend. Time for new attitude. If you don’t recognize this then for sure your privileges will be removed from you before your eyes. If you think it’s ok to leave a huge foot print behind then fill your boots. But please stop whining about it unless you do something to help the situation. Oh and BTW mocking Taco because of his name shows us all your maturity level. Are you in grade two?
Hahaha! Get it right I’m in grade three, those trails have been there for probably 60-70 yrs. so what your saying is now that I’m done enjoying what I did in the past and don’t or can’t get out way in the back country, no one else should either. I’m sorry that you two get your feelings hurt so often, I apologize for that. Every user group should be sticking together or we are all going to lose out on the great Alberta outdoors! I really feel for the kids of the future they won’t be able to experience the great outdoors with people like you who want to divide user groups. That’s exactly what miss Phillips wants. Hopefully there is only one more year of her.
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  #46  
Old 03-31-2018, 09:18 AM
Taco Taco is offline
 
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Never bothered to read posting #22 did ya?
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  #47  
Old 03-31-2018, 09:25 AM
oldgutpile oldgutpile is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Passthru View Post
And before trucks there were horses, and before that you walk in and pack the animal out. That's weird. Even today you can do these things. Without gasoline
And people without the use of horses, seniors and mobility impaired people, can still sit on the outside looking in. Just like in the old days!

I meet up with many retirees and seniors annually in my old hunting spot. Most have sold the farm and live in town. They live to spend the entire fall out hunting and reminiscing. Most of them never even bother to pull the trigger on an animal, they just enjoy the chance to spend time in the mountains and share time around the campfire with friends in the evenings. They putt around the trails on their quads (many of them now using sxs units with their wives along) and enjoy the great outdoors. I guess many of them can find new pastimes unless we maybe have a change in government soon!
I am not in any way saying that abuse of machines doesnt happen out there. Just reinforcing one more time, that if we had had, or could have, the type of enforcement out there that has been put in place lately, a blanket closure is not necessary.
You foot-only advocates are at the same level as some of these anti-gun protesters. Just because someone abuses something, we should ban them all rather than enforce the rules in place. Be careful what you wish for.
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  #48  
Old 03-31-2018, 09:36 AM
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Never bothered to read posting #22 did ya?
Yes I did read it, too bad you want certain things banned though. The government tried to stop fishing in most of the waters in the eastern slopes this spring as well and retracted that when there was an uproar. My point is we should all stand together as a whole user group. You have bad apples in every user group as well
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  #49  
Old 03-31-2018, 09:43 AM
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Please email your UCP rep with your concerns. Hopefully they can rescind the NDP's changes when they win the next election.
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  #50  
Old 03-31-2018, 10:02 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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What share do us All outdoor folks contribute to the system,,, lots when we look at the big picture.

Horse folks grow or buy lots of feed, medical aid, storage and long term up keep of their horses,,, plus tack, camping supplies, transportation, fuel, taxes and much more.

The OHV crowd the same thing, along with the folks that walk, hike, or Mountain Bike. Even the kayak and fishing folks along with the bird watchers,,, ALL of us pay our way.

Food, owning a car or truck, insurance, registration, food, gas, and jobs that we get taxed on,,, ect...

The big picture as I refer to it, we have paided our way, and will continue to do so in a broken system,,, oh well, get by on what little we have.

Why can't there be free crown lands,,, we as Albertans own our lands, we foot the bill in taxes to have them. All of us pay for these lands and we ask nothing for folks out side of Alberta to use them.

Isn't that something to be proud of, a place to visit that cost ALL people nothing for some kind of enjoyment for our years of work. Again,,, "THE BIG PICTURE."

Crown land for ALL of us to share, so long as we pick up what we bring with us. Even if we clean up what gets left behind.

Our club asked the GOA last year for permission to fix up the trails in the Onion LK and Big Horn Dam last year so ALL user groups could access these areas with ease.

The GOA didn't give us the go on fixing the bridges and crossing. Oh well, dosen't matter since the crossing will disappear over time and the old cut-lines will over grow.

Pretty hard getting horses into the far reaches after the 2011 floods back there.

At least I can say that the Big Horn OHV Society along with the Horse Aqusetrian club tried our best to keep access open for all user groups,,, hikers, mountain biking, fishing and game Harvesting folks.

There are alot of folks that don't have the options to own horses, and walking 2 to 7 miles is not an option for us older and disabled folks,,, little lone the 42 kms to the white rabbit.

Shame to see what has become of the both sides of the coin.

I don't have a crystal ball, so this is my guess, and guess only.

If 1 group is removed from our crown lands, then it makes it easier for the rest of the Domino's to follow suit,,, hopefully I'm wrong, but we won't know this till the time comes.

Our fishing folks are losing their thing, same for us OHV folks, horse and Mountain biking could be next along with hunting / Harvesting.

The Big Horn Back Country all ready has time restrictions in place for all user groups, so why the extra push to add it into a park or wild land park.

My guess is that it has something to do with pay for access,,, greed at the government level.
Pay to use our own crown lands that we already own,,, then tax on top of that.

I don't know, and I've / we've tried our best to keep the Castle Area open with little luck.

The poor folk from Southern Alberta have a few paided for camp sites to choose from, that means that those with limited funds are not able to enjoy Alberta's great out doors.

Maybe Joany Mitchell's song is true.

"Pay a dollar and a half to see them."

Yuppers, welcome to Canada, an expensive place to live.

Most likely wrong since I give up on trying to fight for access for ALL user groups because I / we partake in every thing out-doors like many of on this forum.

Looks like a nice day to shoot the bow out side and visit with the folks that show up, free out-door activists are the best

Don
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  #51  
Old 03-31-2018, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by oldgutpile View Post
And people without the use of horses, seniors and mobility impaired people, can still sit on the outside looking in. Just like in the old days!

I meet up with many retirees and seniors annually in my old hunting spot. Most have sold the farm and live in town. They live to spend the entire fall out hunting and reminiscing. Most of them never even bother to pull the trigger on an animal, they just enjoy the chance to spend time in the mountains and share time around the campfire with friends in the evenings. They putt around the trails on their quads (many of them now using sxs units with their wives along) and enjoy the great outdoors. I guess many of them can find new pastimes unless we maybe have a change in government soon!
I am not in any way saying that abuse of machines doesnt happen out there. Just reinforcing one more time, that if we had had, or could have, the type of enforcement out there that has been put in place lately, a blanket closure is not necessary.
You foot-only advocates are at the same level as some of these anti-gun protesters. Just because someone abuses something, we should ban them all rather than enforce the rules in place. Be careful what you wish for.
I'm not a foot advocate just pointing out it can be done. Don't get me wrong I like using atvs at times to to pack out animals. It's easier. It's just that I've heard the argument for the older crowd not being as mobile and using atvs to wander the mountains. I think it was Steve Rinella that said "Should the younger generation have to deal with the impacts of atv use in the mountains, whether it's responsible or otherwise, so that the older generation can still say that they can get out there? Even though the older fella has had a lifetime of experiences and adventures and the younger guy not so much". You still should be able to do the things you enjoy young or old but not at the cost of the very thing we are out there to enjoy.
And to the others pointing fingers at the logging industry,oil and gas, etc. Yes they cause massive damage, no question, more so probably than the atvs and such but if we don't look at ourselves and ask "how can I minimize the impacts of what I do?" then the evidence on the foothills by atv might not be so prevalent and we would not be at this point. Even the most responsible rider makes an impact on such a fragile environment like the foothills unfortunately, no matter how small.
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  #52  
Old 03-31-2018, 11:10 AM
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I dunno. I see both sides of the story and wish there was a better solution so everyone is happy
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  #53  
Old 03-31-2018, 11:19 AM
damaltor damaltor is offline
 
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I am guilty, I began riding and racing dirt bikes throughout the eastern slopes in the early ’70’s. I have ridden trails from north of Hinton to the Canada/US border and all over Canada and the US for that matter. In the early 2000’s, I wandered away from motor sports and began mountain biking with my son, primarily in BC, but also in AB. The last few years, I primarily, spend my time and enjoy fly fishing.

The point being, over the last 40+ years, I have witnessed first hand the impact we have all had on our environment and in particular, the eastern slopes. The reality of the situation, is that circumstances as they are now, cannot continue to go unchecked. The effects of industry and OHV activity, cannot continue at the level they are at now. It is a cancer that is killing our life’s blood, our water sheds.

There have been comments made by members, that infer that the trails and erosion that exits today, has existed for 70 years, I can say first hand, that no they did not. There are members claiming that the photos Taco has posted are isolated incidents and are the cause of flooding, no they are not. They are caused by industry and OHV activity and I believe that those that refuse to acknowledge this are closing their eyes to the reality of our impact.

I would hope that OHV activity could continue to an extend, if managed differently, but people’s attitudes need to change. There have been comments made inferring that damage is being created by a small percentage of “bad apples”, it is actually a very high percentage of users who do not care or think about what they are doing. There have been comments made that better and more enforcement is the answer, with substantially higher fines for infractions, yes that would be a start. As an angler, I will and do call RAP, whenever I see another angler breaking regulations, as an OHV user, will you or do you, take photos or videos of a user operating illegally and call it in??

The biggest issue I see now, when compared to 30-40 years ago, is the sheer volume of OHV activity in our eastern slopes, with no regard to the impact of this activity. I know there are those that will point a finger at me, as an angler, for having a negative environmental impact as well, true, but do you seriously think I have as much of an impact wading through a stream, picking my way trough boulders as a SxS riding through that same stream??

I think we all need to honestly look at what is happening to the outdoors we love and make some hard decisions on what’s needed to stop it.
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:39 AM
artie artie is offline
 
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There still is room out there to have organizations like the quad squad set up trail systems that meet concerns over the environment. It could be funded by user pay like a seasons pass and has to be enforced. Big fine if you are off of the trail system. No more trashing high alpine areas and wet areas.
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:39 AM
RZR RZR is offline
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I remember in the 70’s when west of Longview highway 40 was just a washed out trail. Used to take a truck in there to sheep hunt. Another place was mill creek, it was just as washed back in the 70’s as it is now. There hasn’t been any Off highway use in there for over 20 yrs. Mother Nature can be a beotch!
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Old 03-31-2018, 11:41 AM
RZR RZR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artie View Post
There still is room out there to have organizations like the quad squad set up trail systems that meet concerns over the environment. It could be funded by user pay like a seasons pass and has to be enforced. Big fine if you are off of the trail system. No more trashing high alpine areas and wet areas.
They have rerouted the trails in the castle area and yet the government still closed it. Spent how much on new bridges a such for what
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:18 PM
damaltor damaltor is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RZR View Post
I remember in the 70’s when west of Longview highway 40 was just a washed out trail. Used to take a truck in there to sheep hunt. Another place was mill creek, it was just as washed back in the 70’s as it is now. There hasn’t been any Off highway use in there for over 20 yrs. Mother Nature can be a beotch!
Was it Mother Nature that created the trail to begin with?
This is the issue, although there is no longer OHV use, the trail still exists and erosion continues.
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  #58  
Old 03-31-2018, 12:39 PM
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fainthopeacres fainthopeacres is offline
 
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Woah woah woah folks why am I being labelled and lumped in as an enviro wrecker? Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I live and breathe the outdoors more so than my husband and we enjoy year round activities in the back country. Our hunting rig is 14 feet from hitch to bumper - runs off solar power <no gennies> and I will point out we are non-drinkers non-smokers. Like most - we take our hunting quite serious and plan year round for the fall. We scout - use trail cams etc.. and we do random camp. In fact, we rely on random camping. We also own two 4 wheelers and use them on occasion - we are more into fat biking/hiking & pretty much anything none atv. Our main hunting zone is 404 which is non-motorized and no random camping - foot access only and on occasion we will hunt 308 and 402. While hunting 404 - we rely on the random camping in 308 & 402. I will say we hunt by foot regardless of what zone we're in even though we can use our machines in 308 and 402. In off hunting season - we will have a small fire and sit around the fire and bs for a while. But come hunting season - we are up when it's dark and we begin our hike into our spot for the day - come sunset, we hike out - grab a quick bit to eat and are usually in bed by 7:30 - 8:00 and then - repeat the next day. No fires no nothing - just a place to eat and sleep.
We live close to 2.5 hours from this area and staying in a campground (Strawberry Equestrian is $26 per night) well, we just can't afford that and it ads a lot of extra driving to our hunting grounds. We usually take two/three weeks off for hunting/vacation in the fall and spend our time out there. As you're well aware - hunting is costly and on top of it, we use a butcher in Calgary and a deer will average us $300. Nanton & Longview receive a lot of our business come hunting season as well. We strongly agree something needs to be done and we agree with the designation. I have read the 132 pages from both survey's a couple of times and have viewed the maps as well. Now back when the Castle surveys came out - I had written several letters & I did get a generic response from Shannon Phillips and the letter is dated March 22, 2017. Here is a quote from the letter " There are other areas with trails systems that are suitable for OHV use". My questions to her were regarding 4 wheelers. I have read over this current survey regarding 402 & 308 a few times and have looked at the maps several times. I see snowmobiles/single tracked vehicles mentioned quite a few times and - even proposed trails on the maps for them. But, there is nothing for trails shown for 4 wheelers. In the Castle, they closed first & planned later. Seems like it is repeating itself once again with these survey's. All I would like to know is "where" are the trails for the 4 wheelers going to be? Does this make me an arse hole enviro wrecker for just wanting to know? All ohv users are not crying - they are just like me - want to know where and just to see some clarification. I see the designation for rustic camping & public land rec areas in the 402/308 zones and I'm fine with that. What concerns me is the wording "seasonal" with no dates attached. There is a winter map that does show a few spots in 402 and one spot in 308 for designation but, when and what time of the year is that for? Also, not liking the wording for "noise" when it comes to the animals - last time I fired my rifle - it was way louder than my machine could ever be so that has raised a few flags for sure. I also do no like the vagueness of the whole entire survey. To me it seems like they are going to push it through quickly and plan later. I would really like to see a paid trail pass system - no pass - no riding on the trails and in return, the funds from the passes used for maintenance etc... Also, would like to see a permit system put in place for each rustic camping rig. That way - it would curb those terds like the hunters in 308 dubbed "poachers corner" who seem to think it is their given right to park their rigs Sept. 1st right thru to Nov. 30 and chase every outsider out of that spot so they can have it to themselves. Random camping is very limited in 308 and those who know the area know exactly what I am talking about.
But, I guess all in all if this makes me a bad person in your eyes - so be it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am entitled to mine, I still can't wait until 2019. Thankfully, this is not written in stone and forever put in place, things can be added - deleted and changed so all is not lost and I am not going to lose sleep over it & that is how we're all pretty much looking at it.
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  #59  
Old 03-31-2018, 12:48 PM
oldgutpile oldgutpile is offline
 
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I witnessed (about 3 years back IIRC) the erosion and power of mother nature in 400. The spring run-off was so intense, that a little stream that used to be a tiny rocky spot in the trail, turned into a washout that you could hide a greyhound bus in! This was nowhere near a designated trail, and had nothing to do with OHV traffic. The stream crossed the atv trail at 90 degrees and never came close again.
On the opposite side of the river, there were multiple spots on the south facing slopes that saw avalanche and run-off damage that made the same type gullies while ripping 100 foot spruce trees up by the roots. None of this slope damage was even intersected by the atv trail. It happens!
The amount of subsequent silt and damage to the stream bed would be more than 1000 fishermen wading through spawning redds might accomplish. It's not always just the human footprint to blame.
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  #60  
Old 03-31-2018, 12:57 PM
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fainthopeacres fainthopeacres is offline
 
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I have to ask, did you document dates-times, get license plate numbers & report the culprits for breaking the law? If not, why? In the zone I hunt 404, it is non-motorized. I spend more of my time which I take out of my hunting time documenting - photographing and reporting law breakers. Especially the hunters who don't like to get out and walk - they like to drive up the hills - along the ridges - through the skeg to look for game. They too scare the land with their trucks - 4x4's and leave a hell of a mess on the ground and hillsides. I am on first name basis with the f&w fella in my zone as there is so much of it going on - there is so much to report & I do my part and report it all. Also, those pics of the garbage - where is the after picture of the same spot cleaned up? Again, did you report it? I have attached a pic of my husband and I with 5 extra large heavy duty bags of garbage. You see, last May long weekend instead of spending it with family, we put on roughly 55 kms cleaning campsites and ditches in the Dutch Creek - North Fork area. We do this every year and it has been a family tradition for us since I can remember (way back in the day before atv's - we walked & used the trucks) as we feel the need to give back. I have never documented - talked about this or taken pics of us as I have never seen the need to until crap like this began. I see folks like you posting pics - pointing fingers at the two user groups and gloating like it's a big trophy. People like you who do nothing but post pics and do nothing about it by cleaning up or reporting are a bigger part of the problem than the pics you are posting. Perhaps you'd like to join us this upcoming May long to help clean things up and do some reporting of the law breakers instead of sitting there posting pics?
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