Gravel Pit Proposed Near The Headwater Springs On the North Raven

[Swagger]

Another gravel pit has been proposed near the headwater springs on the North Raven River. Bob Scammell does a great job explaining the issue.

http://www.reddeeradvocate.com/lifes...ml?mobile=true

http://www.reddeeradvocate.com/lifes...265740661.html

Send comments to the Clearwater County before September 9 (I can’t remember the exact date).

Eleanor Pengelly
4340 - 47 Avenue
Box 550
Rocky Mountain House, AB
T4T 1A4
403-845-4444

[clouserminnow]

I hope all you flyfisher people that like to fish the creek let the powers that be know that our water is not to be squandered on gravel pit greed. There are already 4 pits in the 5 mile radius of the Butte. Hope this thing gets the boot.

[lannie]

We also need to realize the resources are to be shared equally with atv's, hunters , industry and any other interested partys. We need to be open minded and gather all info available then come to an agreement that is fair and equitable to the interested partys. There may be 4 or 5 other pits there but they may be saying there are many other options for fish too........

[pipco]

Originally Posted by lannie

We also need to realize the resources are to be shared equally with atv's, hunters , industry and any other interested partys. We need to be open minded and gather all info available then come to an agreement that is fair and equitable to the interested partys. There may be 4 or 5 other pits there but they may be saying there are many other options for fish too........

If it wasn't for the few morons that spoil it for the many I'd rather not be equitable at all to atv users. In my radical, selfish, unequitable view they should all be blown up.
As far as industry, if they were fair and equitable they would also be a little more concerned for the environment instead of the almighty dollar.

Wiebo Ludwig may have approached things a little too far outside the law but it's looking more and more like he may not have been far off track.

Just my skewed, opinionated, close minded view.

[MK2750]

If you want public support to protect the resource it needs to become public property. The Red Deer River Water Shed is basically a private boys club with very limited access to the public. The worst example of this is Stauffer and the Raven in general.

As long as farmers and land owners block access at bridges, allow cattle to roam the river bottom and grant access to privileged individuals very few are going to care.

This scenario is also advantageous to the oil companies. Two major oil spills and with a little hush money all is forgotten. The reason why is that the general public has no access to these areas.

I have met with dozens of people that have just given up fly fishing the most poorly manage river shed in the country.

If you people truly want change, proper management and environmental protection OPEN these areas up to the general public. Shine the spot light in the right direction and the money hungry will disappear like cockroaches.

For the record, I do have excusive access to some of the best water in central Alberta. I seldom see a foot print let alone another fly fisher. No one is out there for good reason. They got tired of begging for access and low fish numbers. They simply go to a better managed area.

If you are ever wondering why you can't get a parking spot at Beaver Lake, think about the hundreds of miles of water held privately that is the Red Deer River Water Shed.

Between Penhold and Red Deer there is enough pristine River to keep half the Provence entertained for a life time. If you know a rich landowner down the long gated lane way, have a good river/drift boat or a private plane you might get to see it someday.

[italk2u]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If you want public support to protect the resource it needs to become public property. The Red Deer River Water Shed is basically a private boys club with very limited access to the public. The worst example of this is Stauffer and the Raven in general.

As long as farmers and land owners block access at bridges, allow cattle to roam the river bottom and grant access to privileged individuals very few are going to care.

This scenario is also advantageous to the oil companies. Two major oil spills and with a little hush money all is forgotten. The reason why is that the general public has no access to these areas.

I have met with dozens of people that have just given up fly fishing the most poorly manage river shed in the country.

If you people truly want change, proper management and environmental protection OPEN these areas up to the general public. Shine the spot light in the right direction and the money hungry will disappear like cockroaches.

For the record, I do have excusive access to some of the best water in central Alberta. I seldom see a foot print let alone another fly fisher. No one is out there for good reason. They got tired of begging for access and low fish numbers. They simply go to a better managed area.

If you are ever wondering why you can't get a parking spot at Beaver Lake, think about the hundreds of miles of water held privately that is the Red Deer River Water Shed.

Between Penhold and Red Deer there is enough pristine River to keep half the Provence entertained for a life time. If you know a rich landowner down the long gated lane way, have a good river/drift boat or a private plane you might get to see it someday.

Strangely enough, in 30 years I've fished the Stauffer from one end to the other and never have have i had any problem with access using public access points and making sure i stayed as close as possible to the high water line.
The real reason there are so few fly anglers out there on the streams is because most of them are on Strubel, Beaver, Mitchell and so on killing the government-stocked trout.
There is nothing elitist about fishing the Stauffer or any other foothills stream..you just have to put in the effort, and few of the younger generation are willing to do that.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by italk2u

Strangely enough, in 30 years I've fished the Stauffer from one end to the other and never have have i had any problem with access using public access points and making sure i stayed as close as possible to the high water line.
The real reason there are so few fly anglers out there on the streams is because most of them are on Strubel, Beaver, Mitchell and so on killing the government-stocked trout.
There is nothing elitist about fishing the Stauffer or any other foothills stream..you just have to put in the effort, and few of the younger generation are willing to do that.

If you have not asked permission you were trespassing. Stauffer (according to F&W) does not fall into the "high water" rule and is considered private property. In order to fish it, you need permission.

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If you have not asked permission you were trespassing. Stauffer (according to F&W) does not fall into the "high water" rule and is considered private property. In order to fish it, you need permission.

Interesting, this is not the response I received from the Public Lands Branch of the old ESRD, which is the branch that would actually determine if the beds and shores of the Creek were crown claimable a couple of years ago.

[MK2750]

I would like to see it in the courts. Farmers post signs basically right in the stream and place electric fencing right to the waters edge. In many places fencing crosses the creek.

Some say that the Raven River follows federal water ways law but the land owners still try to block access.

I told one particularly ignorant land owner to phone the authorities but they did not show. I was just standing at a bridge, not fishing.

I also asked a F&W officer and he said I should ask permission.

[MathewsArcher]

The beds and shores of naturally occurring permanent and semi-permanent water bodies are in general crown lands under Section 3 of the Public Lands Act. If in doubt contact the water boundaries unit of environment and parks and ask for a determination. The water itself is definitely owned by the Province. Fencing across a water course is exempt from the Water Act and legal for them to do under provincial legislation.

Definitely easier to ask permission and probably the best idea, but legally may not be required if you stay within the water body.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by pipco

If it wasn't for the few morons that spoil it for the many I'd rather not be equitable at all to atv users. In my radical, selfish, unequitable view they should all be blown up.
As far as industry, if they were fair and equitable they would also be a little more concerned for the environment instead of the almighty dollar.

Wiebo Ludwig may have approached things a little too far outside the law but it's looking more and more like he may not have been far off track.

Just my skewed, opinionated, close minded view.

Wiebo was a sawed off, arrogant, off his rocker, egotistical cult leader who liked to dabble in terrorism. Don't forget he also didn't seem to have a problem with murder. To even bring up his name and somehow try to justify what he did is......well.......speaks volumes......

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

The beds and shores of naturally occurring permanent and semi-permanent water bodies are in general crown lands under Section 3 of the Public Lands Act. If in doubt contact the water boundaries unit of environment and parks and ask for a determination. The water itself is definitely owned by the Province. Fencing across a water course is exempt from the Water Act and legal for them to do under provincial legislation.

Definitely easier to ask permission and probably the best idea, but legally may not be required if you stay within the water body.

If it were easy people would be out there. Most don't want to kiss up to someone every time they want to go fishing for an hour.

Staying within the water body means you are swimming in Stauffer.

I believe Jumping Pound also falls under this idiotic legislation.

Obviously one could walk the Red Deer River but with many miles without access it too is pretty much a private club.

[italk2u]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If it were easy people would be out there. Most don't want to kiss up to someone every time they want to go fishing for an hour.

Staying within the water body means you are swimming in Stauffer.

I believe Jumping Pound also falls under this idiotic legislation.

Obviously one could walk the Red Deer River but with many miles without access it too is pretty much a private club.

Tell you what then, I'll continue to ask permission to cross private land and fish the adjacent stream and you can continue to sit on your ass and whine and bitch and complain about how unfair life is. Betcha I have more fun than you do!!

[MLayden]

Hello,
I am responding to your email inquiry below.

First, it is important to point out that Crown land (related to creeks and rivers), only extends to the “bed and shore” of permanent water bodies. For information, please see:
http://esrd.alberta.ca/lands-forests...oundaries.aspx .

Second, for the most part, the riparian area of a stream like the North Raven River is private land (that is, your assertion that “…in Canada…the high water mark…includes the riparian area” is incorrect). For information on what a riparian area is, please see: www.cowsandfish.org

Third, the fencing of the North Raven River at **** was not paid for by Trout Unlimited nor by the Buck for Wildlife Program. Further to that, it is my understanding that for sites on private land where fencing is paid for by Trout Unlimited or the Buck for Wildlife Program, a) participating landowners are expected to provide reasonable (not blanket/universal access) to the public, and b) individual members of the public are expected to seek the permission of the landowner before access, out of respect for the fact that most of the lands involved in those projects are private (for example, see: http://www.ab-conservation.com/go/de...d/use-respect/ )

Finally, if you would like to learn more about the many great things that landowners in Red Deer County are doing to benefit the environment, and how the public can support them, it would be great to talk with you.

All the best,
Ken


Ken Lewis
Conservation Coordinator
Environmental Farm Plan (EFP) Technician
Alternative Land Use Services (ALUS) Coordinator
Red Deer County

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Interesting, this is not the response I received from the Public Lands Branch of the old ESRD, which is the branch that would actually determine if the beds and shores of the Creek were crown claimable a couple of years ago.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by italk2u

Tell you what then, I'll continue to ask permission to cross private land and fish the adjacent stream and you can continue to sit on your ass and whine and bitch and complain about how unfair life is. Betcha I have more fun than you do!!

I don't sit on my ass and whine. I fly fish at least twice a week on these streams and have exclusive access you could only dream about. I have caught no less than 100 20+ inch Browns this season and never met even one other fisherman except on the road ways.

I'll tell you what then, you let things go the way they are where 95% of people have no right of access or are even aware of the fishery. When big oil, agriculture or a gravel company come knocking it will be you very few that oppose them. It is a private matter on private property.

I won't take the "betcha" you have more fun. You obviously live in a fantasy world so no doubt you are giggling in bliss.

The real friends of the Red Deer River Water Shed are continuing to fight for ease of access, improved regulation and fish management. They know the way it was and how good it could be.

[italk2u]

Originally Posted by MK2750

I don't sit on my ass and whine. I fly fish at least twice a week on these streams and have exclusive access you could only dream about. I have caught no less than 100 20+ inch Browns this season and never met even one other fisherman except on the road ways.

I'll tell you what then, you let things go the way they are where 95% of people have no right of access or are even aware of the fishery. When big oil, agriculture or a gravel company come knocking it will be you very few that oppose them. It is a private matter on private property.

I won't take the "betcha" you have more fun. You obviously live in a fantasy world so no doubt you are giggling in bliss.

The real friends of the Red Deer River Water Shed are continuing to fight for ease of access, improved regulation and fish management. They know the way it was and how good it could be.

I too remember how great it used to be. I remember spending hours with Lloyd Shea and others like him on the Stauffer. There was never any discussion of trespassing then and there shouldn't be now. If you think you can return the Stauffer and other streams to what they were like in those days, you are the one living in a fantasy world. I have access to many streams in that area, public and otherwise and it's working just fine for me, thank you.
Your Friends of the red deer need to spend more time on really important things like fracking and quad destruction.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by italk2u

I too remember how great it used to be. I remember spending hours with Lloyd Shea and others like him on the Stauffer. There was never any discussion of trespassing then and there shouldn't be now. If you think you can return the Stauffer and other streams to what they were like in those days, you are the one living in a fantasy world. I have access to many streams in that area, public and otherwise and it's working just fine for me, thank you.
Your Friends of the red deer need to spend more time on really important things like fracking and quad destruction.

I know it works fine for you. It works fine for me as well.

The problem, if you think rather than mindlessly contradict, is that things are getting worse rather than better.

Years ago access was no issue. The land owners not only knew my vehicle, they left the keys in the farm truck in case I needed a four wheel drive. I could come and go as I pleased and still do in many cases.

Now the older folks are retiring, sons and daughters sell off the land and many parcels are sold as private recreational properties. They basically are buying up our natural resources for both hunting and fishing.

Because so few have access there is little reason for the government to improve fisheries, stock fish or even enforce the regulations. (have you ever seen a fish cop anywhere but a bridge or at Dickson Dam)

If access was improved for the general public we would have a strong voice as numbers of users increased. Not only fisherman but hikers, bird watches and hunters. This would take some the stress off of the few areas in central Alberta where there is easy access and improve the fishery as a whole.

It is not just Stauffer as that system will never be a popular place for anyone but the die hard anglers.

The Red Deer, Little Red, Dog Pound etc., could be world class with some dollars spent, easy access and proper stocking/fish management. Rather than an expense, these systems could be major boost to local economies and government. This added revenue could in turn be used for further improvement.

Anyhow, I am done. Continue on with your little piece of private heaven and every week of so we can read about threats from big business and the wealthy wanting to take it from you. One day they will succeed and our sons and daughters can find something else to occupy themselves.

[italk2u]

Not disagreeing with anything you just wrote, what I am sayig is that ease of access is still there and all it takes is a quick knock on somebody's door and the question> "May I cross your land to fish stream X"?.
If our sons and daughters don't have the balls to do that, then they deserve what they get.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by italk2u

Not disagreeing with anything you just wrote, what I am sayig is that ease of access is still there and all it takes is a quick knock on somebody's door and the question> "May I cross your land to fish stream X"?.
If our sons and daughters don't have the balls to do that, then they deserve what they get.

There will be no reason to knock if the fishery is gone. BTW many landowners are now refusing access to anyone they don't know.

Most will not knock and continue elsewhere. More people fish the Ram on any given weekend than all of the central Alberta streams combined.

If more people were enjoying this resource, there would be no threat from gravel companies or anyone else.

[pipco]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Wiebo was a sawed off, arrogant, off his rocker, egotistical cult leader who liked to dabble in terrorism. Don't forget he also didn't seem to have a problem with murder. To even bring up his name and somehow try to justify what he did is......well.......speaks volumes......

I know we're off topic here but....

If you believe what the media feeds you like pablum regarding Wiebo or anything else then I feel sad for you. I know people that have lived next to gas wells and have contracted cancer, had animals die and could not drink their water. Facts. Not controlled media propaganda.

Believe what you want and I'll continue to rail against multi- national corporations that care nothing for the environment or most humans.

[kevin1949]

Originally Posted by italk2u

Not disagreeing with anything you just wrote, what I am sayig is that ease of access is still there and all it takes is a quick knock on somebody's door and the question> "May I cross your land to fish stream X"?.
If our sons and daughters don't have the balls to do that, then they deserve what they get.

My count this year alone 7 doors knocked on------- 1 access granted.Ease of access is NOT there.Please explain why my dollars should support a "private fishery"

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by kevin1949

My count this year alone 7 doors knocked on------- 1 access granted.Ease of access is NOT there.Please explain why my dollars should support a "private fishery"

You are not alone.

I have 30+ years sales experience, several years cold calling and all one on one with home owners. I know 100s of people in the areas I hunt/fish and can name drop reliable references. I am still uncomfortable asking but generally gain access.

My son and his buddies do not have this kind of experience and do not have much luck even though they are clean cut and well mannered. It certainly isn't as easy as knocking on a door and asking to go into stream X.

Adding to the frustration is knowing that others have gained access. Most are like you and couldn't care less what happens in these private resorts.

Even if permission is granted, you have to go through the whole ordeal again next time you want to wet a line. Today's generation are more comfortable texting than talking and in fact many are socially awkward speaking with strangers.

Then there is the frustration of tracking the landowner down, even if they are generally good about granting access. One is suppose to report each and every time they access the land. If the landowner is away for a few weeks the fishery is closed for those that didn't plan well ahead.

Until this changes there will be no public support to fight industry and little funding for improvement. Those thinking all is well because they have access are part of the problem not the solution.

[Swagger]

Hopefully it is OK to bring the discussion back on track...

Obviously there are alot of threats and challenges to fish / wildlife and natural resources on a whole. COMPLACANCY is our biggest problem. In order to see things change in Alberta we need to start somewhere and we need to hold the regulators feet to the fire.

In the case of the proposed Mcquiston gravel pit, this pit IS located in an "environmentally sensitive area" right near the headwater springs on the North Raven. I think there is a real risk to water quality and flow due to potential spring piracy, suspended solids and temperature changes entering the aquifer screwing up spawning and rearing.

BTW much of the headwaters of North Raven IS open to public access. Both Leavitt Springs and Stainbrook Springs are adjacent properties to the proposed pit and are jointly owned by ACA / TU and AF&G. I am sure if ACA / TU could have outbid the pit operators ludicrously high purchase price, then this area would have been set aside for conservation as well.

This is a numbers game... With enough reasonably thought out "Letters of Concern" submitted to the county, approval will be reconsidered. Without opposition, I expect to see a rubberstamped approval.

Send comments to the Clearwater County before September 9.

Eleanor Pengelly
4340 - 47 Avenue
Box 550
Rocky Mountain House, AB
T4T 1A4
403-845-4444

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Swagger

Hopefully it is OK to bring the discussion back on track...

Obviously there are alot of threats and challenges to fish / wildlife and natural resources on a whole. COMPLACANCY is our biggest problem. In order to see things change in Alberta we need to start somewhere and we need to hold the regulators feet to the fire.

In the case of the proposed Mcquiston gravel pit, this pit IS located in an "environmentally sensitive area" right near the headwater springs on the North Raven. I think there is a real risk to water quality and flow due to potential spring piracy, suspended solids and temperature changes entering the aquifer screwing up spawning and rearing.

BTW much of the headwaters of North Raven IS open to public access. Both Leavitt Springs and Stainbrook Springs are adjacent properties to the proposed pit and are jointly owned by ACA / TU and AF&G. I am sure if ACA / TU could have outbid the pit operators ludicrously high purchase price, then this area would have been set aside for conservation as well.

This is a numbers game... With enough reasonably thought out "Letters of Concern" submitted to the county, approval will be reconsidered. Without opposition, I expect to see a rubberstamped approval.

Send comments to the Clearwater County before September 9.

Eleanor Pengelly
4340 - 47 Avenue
Box 550
Rocky Mountain House, AB
T4T 1A4
403-845-4444

Other than a couple of comments about Wiebo Ludwig the discussion has been exactly on track.

In order to get enough reasonably thought out "Letters of Concern" submitted to the county, there has to be enough people that actually are concerned.

The headwaters suck compared to the large Browns that lurk in the farm country. Everyone that has private access always points people in the direction of the buck for wildlife site knowing full well it is over fished and rarely productive.

You are exactly right that without enough concern one of these projects will get rubber stamped and the damage will be done. COMPLACANCY is NOT our biggest problem. Our biggest problem is that so few of us enjoy the fishery that our stance is weak.

I fear the future will be less promising as many of those willing to fight are getting too old to do so. It seems every year we are losing another prominent protector of our resource. Without recruitment of our youth via easier access these people will not be replaced.

Thank you for providing the contact information and hopefully more of us will raise our concerns to the county.