A good read from the financial post

[Ken07AOVette]

Financial Post
Canadians don’t value our fossil fuel economy, which explains why so many are OK to trash pipelines and see Alberta tank. Only 19 per cent think it more important to pursue oil and gas development than to go green and regulate oil, according to EKOS polling. That 19 per cent figure shrinks to eight per cent for Canadians who consider themselves Liberals, six per cent for NDPers and two per cent for those who vote Green, meaning that politicians of most stripes have no interest in alienating their supporters to help Alberta’s energy economy recover.


Those figures also explain why Alberta’s sense of alienation is on the rise. According to Ipsos, fully 62 per cent believe Alberta “does not get its fair share from Confederation” (up from 45 per cent two decades ago), 46 per cent feel more attached to their province than to their country (up from 39 per cent) and 34 per cent “feel less committed to Canada than I did a few years ago” (up from 22 per cent). Just 18 per cent of Albertans believe “the views of western Canadians are adequately represented in Ottawa.”

‘I’m afraid for Canada’: Energy CEOs losing patience with country’s indifference to oilpatch’s plight
Canada’s Catalonia? Careful Ottawa, western alienation is beginning to rear its head again
‘Heavy-handed’ intervention will not alleviate Alberta’s pain in long term

One-quarter of Albertans now believe Alberta “would be better off if it separated from Canada,” a number that may well rise if the provincial economy founders, and would certainly rise if Albertans realized that they need Canada a lot less than Canada needs them. Without Alberta’s wealth and foreign-exchange earnings, the living standard of Canadians outside Alberta would drop and the Canadian dollar would plummet, likely leading to inflation as the cost of imports rose. Albertans, in contrast, would see their affluence rise and, because oil sales are denominated in U.S. dollars, Alberta would be largely insulated from the inflation to its east and west.

Those pooh-poohing independence claim Alberta, being land-locked, would be held hostage if it were an independent state. Those scoffers have it backwards. Alberta is today held hostage, its pipelines east and west kiboshed by its fellow Canadians. If Alberta were independent, its newfound bargaining power would certainly cause the Rest of Canada to capitulate, and speed to completion any and all pipelines Alberta needed to either ocean.


An independent Alberta would control access to its land mass as well as the skies above it, requiring Canada’s federal government to negotiate rights for, say, Vancouver-to-Toronto flights over Alberta airspace. Canada would also need Alberta’s agreement to have trains and trucks cross its now-international borders. Threats of tolls and tariffs could abound as needed to chasten those perceived to be wronging Alberta, whether Quebec, which exports dairy to B.C., grain interests that now commandeer rail to the detriment of Alberta’s oil shippers, or the B.C. ports that depend on commodities going to and from points east. Anyone thinking that Alberta would be unable to police its borders needs to be reminded that, for the past 70 years, Alberta’s patrols have made it the continent’s only rat-free jurisdiction.



Should Alberta become a credible threat to leave the federation, the debate would embolden Quebec separatists, make Canada seem unstable and scare off investment


The Rest of Canada has other reasons to avoid pushing Albertans to the point of separation. Should Alberta become a credible threat to leave the Canadian federation, the debate would likely embolden Quebec separatists, make Canada seem unstable and scare off both domestic and international investment. Alberta would have the United States as a bargaining chip, too: Manifest Destiny, the U.S. dream of controlling the entire continent, would experience a revival at the prospect of welcoming Alberta as its 51st state, strengthening America’s influence over the world’s energy markets and, in particular, over a now energy-dependent Rest of Canada.

While history suggests Alberta would almost surely be better off outside Canada — Singapore, Norway, Taiwan, the Czech Republic and other breakaways have generally thrived — divorce would be messy, costly in the short term and unnecessary. The Supreme Court of Canada made separation plausible — separation negotiations would start as soon as a clear majority of Albertans in a clearly stated referendum voted to leave Canada. It wouldn’t take too many more blows to Alberta’s economy and Albertans’ pride for the 46 per cent who now see themselves more as Albertans than Canadians to become 56 per cent or even 66 per cent, figures setting Canada on a path to dismemberment.

The last time Alberta was pushed toward the brink, it argued that “the West wants in.” The next time it might argue that “Alberta wants out.” The Rest of Canada needs to understand it has no hand to play if it continues to fuel Albertans’ discontent. If we don’t come to have regard for the needs of Alberta, Alberta will come to have no regard for Canada.

[sk270]

If Alberta goes, please take Saskatchewan with you. We're in the same boat.

[Sooner]

Just find a way to stop the transfer payments and see how fast were noticed for our contribution to the dominion, especially when Quebec cries foul.

It's a sad day when we have a golden egg and can't use it. No other country would "leave it in the ground".

[lmtada]

I have been separation ready since 1980 Let’s do it! Republic of Alberta.

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by Sooner

Just find a way to stop the transfer payments and see how fast were noticed for our contribution to the dominion, especially when Quebec cries foul.

It's a sad day when we have a golden egg and can't use it. No other country would "leave it in the ground".

Just turn off the taps in all directions. Yes, it would be painful for Alberta immediately, but no income means no transfer payments to the east! In fact Alberta immediately becomes a have not province and then transfer payments come the other way! Yes, I know, west bound transfer payments are a dream,but we can't send Ottawa money we don't have. That is going to get a lot of attention in a big hurry!

[slough shark]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Just turn off the taps in all directions. Yes, it would be painful for Alberta immediately, but no income means no transfer payments to the east! In fact Alberta immediately becomes a have not province and then transfer payments come the other way! Yes, I know, west bound transfer payments are a dream,but we can't send Ottawa money we don't have. That is going to get a lot of attention in a big hurry!

They use a 3 year rolling average for transfer payments so that likely isn’t going to happen. Really the only way to stop transfer payments is to establish an Alberta revenue agency that collects all tax from within Alberta and refuses to pay anything to Ottawa.

[Digger1]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Just turn off the taps in all directions. Yes, it would be painful for Alberta immediately, but no income means no transfer payments to the east! In fact Alberta immediately becomes a have not province and then transfer payments come the other way! Yes, I know, west bound transfer payments are a dream,but we can't send Ottawa money we don't have. That is going to get a lot of attention in a big hurry!

Sure. As long as we don’t have to pay any taxes while we’re unemployed eh. I’ve got moose and veggies in the freezer. Let’s do it.

[Parker Hale]

Originally Posted by sk270

If Alberta goes, please take Saskatchewan with you. We're in the same boat.

I have lived my whole 52 years as a western Canadian, born in B.C. and currently residing in Alberta. Over my life I have watched the eastern elite alienate the western provinces over and over and heard the cries for western separation as many times. I do believe we are getting s**t on by the feds and feel we need to do something for sure. My question for all those who feel separation is the way to go is what will separating accomplish? As it stands the federal government as well as some provincial governments stand in the way of pipelines being built, and this is affecting the whole Canadian economy. If Alberta and lets include Saskatchewan too were to separate they would become a landlocked country with no access to tide waters at all and neither BC or Quebec are suddenly going to say: "Hey you guys are your own country so go ahead and build your pipelines through our provinces"

As angry as I am about the whole western alienation thing separation will do nothing for the west, unless B.C. can some how be talked into joining too.

My idea, turning off the taps is a good start as well as a tax revolt. Stop sending our money east altogether.

[Ehgun]

Originally Posted by sk270

If Alberta goes, please take Saskatchewan with you. We're in the same boat.

I hope that you do come with us.

[Drewski Canuck]

You DO UNDERSTAND that there is nothing the US wants more than Alberta to Separate. We would be a Protectorate of the US, much like Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.

We would use US Currency, have no Voting Rights, but special entry status and passports, AND THE BIGGEST THING THAT THE US WANTS...........


Access to all that wasted Water that is now flowing NORTH TO NOWHERE!

Alberta would sell the Water and the US would gladly welcome the BULK WATER TRANSFER to the Dry midland US States.

All the dams have been built at the strategic locations, only requiring large pipelines or canals for transfer to the St. Mary's Reservoir, and then to the USA.

These arrangements have worked for other US Protectorates, and still left them with independence of government. What's so wrong with that?

Alberta already has an Office in Washington, and Hong Kong. Why not make these an Embassy?

If Saskatchewan throws in with Alberta, the US then have security on Uranium, Potash, Oil, and Water, not to mention our food production.

BUT DON'T YOU WORRY ABOUT A THING!

Those Smart Liberals in Ottawa know that Canada stops at the Manitoba Border, and nothing the West might do is going to affect Central Canada anyway!

Drewski

[HoytCRX32]

I can say “huh” just as easily as saying “eh”....sick and tired!

[KGB]

Separation isn’t an answer. Unless we separate, then declare a war on Montana and surrender in an hour.... Turning the tap off will never happen, this will cause us more trouble than anything else. The east will just buy more oil from Saudies and Venezuela. They don’t give a rats bum. BC will start bringing oil from Alaska and gasoline from Seattle. They have their own nat gas.
The only option for us that I can see might actually work is a tax revolt. Stop transfer payment completely based on the facts that we are a have not province at this moment. But the politician who will have to initiate that has to have a gigantic pair of testicles. The provincial government won’t be able to do that, it has to be the new federal. The new federal- assuming it is going to be Concervatives- will be putting themselves at risk of loosing all Quebec votes.... but this is the only way to get their approval to build a pipeline. No money-no honey!

[HunterDave]

Western separation has already been discussed and planned with a Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta coalition. It was back when Quebec had their referendum to separate and Cretin sent all those busloads of people from Ontario to Quebec. I read a good article about it in Macleans (I think it was). If Quebec had separated Manbertawan would have happened.

Man, I wish that I could find that article again. It was really interesting.

[MK2750]

A CTV news poll the other day asked "What is the more important economic crisis, losing the GM plant in Oshawa or the oil price drop.

85 % +/- said the oil price problems.

Don Martin brushed this aside stating "It's nice to see Albertans can still vote!"

A similar poll two days ago asked about the oil price crisis, the first minister's conference and what priorities should be discussed. It returned the same or higher results. One of the two polls was 89% IIRC

Canadians, even those living off government wages or social programs are coming to the realization that money has to come from some where. 80 million dollars a day rolls off the tongue with hardly a facial expression change from the media BUT people as not that stupid. They realize that some stupid games are being played and are not liking the look of the stupid prizes.

[Twisted Canuck]

Good article Ken, thanks for posting that.

I'm all for separation at this point and would happily vote so in a referendum. Since His Highness the Right Arrogant Trudeau wouldn't consider me a True Canadian anyway, by whatever his current criteria are, I don't see much point in being one either. I'm proudly an Albertan, but I'm also very happy that we will have green cards to become Permanent Residents to the USA before 2019 closes. Next October's federal election is going to help me decide on what course of action we follow. And I really am tired of long winters.

[mediumrare]

Originally Posted by sk270

If Alberta goes, please take Saskatchewan with you. We're in the same boat.

Another vote here

[mediumrare]

There are alot of people in the east that I bet would be happy to join in a separated Alberta.the majority of people in rural areas of Ontario are just as fed up as Alberta with the Liberals.

[amosfella]

There's an interesting video series on youtube called The Myth is Canada. It's quite interesting. I'd come to the same conclusion that Canada is a myth 4 years ago independent of this guy.

Also, David Johnson, the former Governor General, wrote a book called The Idea of Canada. In that book, he never once refers to Canada as a nation or a state. He only refers to it as an idea.

Canada is a myth. As of 1931, the Provinces are sovereign nations unto themselves. They have never come together and confederated a country. There are no articles of confederation for Canada. There's been no constitutional convention creating a country called Canada.

In reality, Canada is nothing more than a corporation formed by letters patent commonly called the Charter. That is what Queen Lizzie signed when the constitution was supposedly 'repatriated'.

But wait!!!! Repatriated??? How can that be?? Repatriated means to send something back to its country of origin... Canada never had a constitution... How can they repatriate something that didn't exist before in Canada???

Things that make you go hmmmm....

[icehunter]

Originally Posted by mediumrare

There are alot of people in the east that I bet would be happy to join in a separated Alberta.the majority of people in rural areas of Ontario are just as fed up as Alberta with the Liberals.

Sorry,were full.

[HVA7mm]

Originally Posted by icehunter

Sorry,were full.

We'd have lots of room if we just traded the NDP supporters from the last provincial election, and the Liberal supporters from the last federal election for Rural Ontarians and Rural British Columbians. I'd be happy with that trade.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by amosfella

There's an interesting video series on youtube called The Myth is Canada. It's quite interesting. I'd come to the same conclusion that Canada is a myth 4 years ago independent of this guy.

Also, David Johnson, the former Governor General, wrote a book called The Idea of Canada. In that book, he never once refers to Canada as a nation or a state. He only refers to it as an idea.

Canada is a myth. As of 1931, the Provinces are sovereign nations unto themselves. They have never come together and confederated a country. There are no articles of confederation for Canada. There's been no constitutional convention creating a country called Canada.

In reality, Canada is nothing more than a corporation formed by letters patent commonly called the Charter. That is what Queen Lizzie signed when the constitution was supposedly 'repatriated'.

But wait!!!! Repatriated??? How can that be?? Repatriated means to send something back to its country of origin... Canada never had a constitution... How can they repatriate something that didn't exist before in Canada???

Things that make you go hmmmm....

I just downloaded the book to kindle. Looks very interesting, thanks for that post! Just reading Stephan Harpers book 'Right Here Right Now'..excellent book so far!

[fishtank]

this is in the headlines
Alberta unemployment falls by a full percentage point to 6.3% — the largest drop in more than a decade...
heres the break down
Out of the roughly 24,000 jobs added in Alberta from October to November this year, more than 10,000 were in the goods-producing sector, which includes the natural resources sector. However, only about 900 jobs were added in that sector.

The manufacturing sector added 4,300 jobs; there were 2,300 new agriculture jobs; there were 1,800 new jobs in utilities; and there were 1,300 new jobs in construction.

Growth in the service sector accounted for 13,200 new jobs, including 8,200 in health care and social assistance.

after chrismas there will be another round of layoff in the oil sector, we are getting peanuts service replacements for oil trade sector jobs .

ps ... utilities jobs including putting up christmas led street lights up on trees at night.. been seeing lots on those city of edmonton trucks at it nightly

[Twisted Canuck]

Agree.

Those are great stats if you are a politician trying to put a spin on things. What I'd like to know is how many of those newly employed people took whatever job they could get because benefits ran out, at a substantial decrease in pay from a previously held good job in the energy sector. That might shine a different light on things. People may be working, but that doesn't mean it's all sunny ways...

[gunluvr]

BC with its current government will likely never want to help us out. Eastern Canada doesn't want our oil-only our money. Our federal votes mean nothing. There's zero representation for us in Ottawa. This is nothing new.
Joining the US is probably our best option...but best wait till that cartoon character in the white house is gone.

[sk270]

The premier of Quebec says there won't be any oil pipelines across his province. Instead, he wants to sell the rest of Canada the hydroelectricity that is generated from the dams that flooded First Nations' land.

He is, however, happy to accept over $11 billion in equalization payments, most of which come from Alberta and Saskatchewan.

There is something wrong with this picture but we cannot expect a Prime Minister from Montreal to understand. This Prime Minister continues to prefer buying oil from the repressive regime in Saudi Arabia despite all the publicity he generates in support of gender equality.

BTW I think this fits in the Outdoors Forum because I would have a lot more money to spend on hunting and fishing if more of my taxes stayed here instead of going to the "have not" provinces.

[Twisted Canuck]

Per the Financial Post, all those sunny new jobs in context....not really encouraging at all, but great optics for the Liberals as far as 'creating new jobs' goes. Bravo.

https://business.financialpost.com/n...il-in-the-data

[Alberta Separatist]

Originally Posted by lmtada

I have been separation ready since 1980 Let’s do it! Republic of Alberta.

X2

[Ehgun]

Originally Posted by Alberta Separatist

X2

X3.

[Weedy1]

Recognizing Alberta's Outsized Contribution to Confederation

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/site...federation.pdf

[gunluvr]

Originally Posted by Weedy1

Recognizing Alberta's Outsized Contribution to Confederation

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/site...federation.pdf

This should be required reading for all Canadians east of Saskatchewan. As long as the money keeps flowing west-to-east, they just don't seem to care. I say pull out of this disgraceful mess of a country, the sooner the better. And BC can burn down, or fall into the ocean, for all I care.