Do you think all sheep should be on a draw?

Ya, that would definitely seem logical to me as well.......

[lazy ike]

With resident sucess rates as low as they are and what appears to be a fairly healthy population of sheep I don't see the value of a draw? I know of a couple of big rams harvested last season(one by a resident and another by a yank). It can happen, you got to work for it end of conversation! I personally would rather know 200 guys are hunting an area and harvesting a couple of squeakers Than live with 5 guys with tags trying to shoot a book ram.

[Torkdiesel]

I agree they live in two different habitats ABWhitetail but 8 years ago there was hardly any mule deer bucks left up here. I never expect to see anywhere near the numbers of sheep as I do deer. But it would be nice to have an idea of how many other guys are in the same area and I don't think that an increased number of sheep is a bad idea in anybodies book. As for following Montanas system as a guidline, I'd be carefull what I wissed for.

As for following Montanas system as a guidline, I'd be carefull what I wissed for.

Why? I apologize in advance here if it's not where you are going but please no references to Open Spaces and paid hunting. In Montana and Alberta, the vast majority of sheep live on public land open to general access without paying a fee. I've studied Montana's sheep management extensively and they do know how to produce trophy rams in a way that makes Alberta look pathetic, even though many of their populations began with our transplants.!

Drawing a tag in certain areas there is as close to a guarantee of a book ram as you can get.

[Torkdiesel]

What I meant by the comment was that I don't think a preference point system where you have to buy extra points and apply with them sometimes. Or you can use them on different animals. I've had many hunters up from montana and they think our resident draw system is the best thing going. As far as your comment on there draw for a guarenteed book ram. Do you think that would have happened with more over the counter tags?

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

What I meant by the comment was that I don't think a preference point system where you have to buy extra points and apply with them sometimes. Or you can use them on different animals. I've had many hunters up from montana and they think our resident draw system is the best thing going. As far as your comment on there draw for a guarenteed book ram. Do you think that would have happened with more over the counter tags?

I wasn't suggesting adopting their draw system...the one we have works great. I was talking about their management system. No reason we couldn't change our management style and keep the same draw system.

Do you think that would have happened with more over the counter tags?[/

Nope...that's why I like their system of some draw and some general areas.

[ABwhitetail]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I agree they live in two different habitats ABWhitetail but 8 years ago there was hardly any mule deer bucks left up here. I never expect to see anywhere near the numbers of sheep as I do deer. But it would be nice to have an idea of how many other guys are in the same area and I don't think that an increased number of sheep is a bad idea in anybodies book. As for following Montanas system as a guidline, I'd be carefull what I wissed for.

I know were you are coming from. I too hunt the peace area for Mule deer and know the improvments the draw system created up there. But I think it was a different scenario.

With sheep, I don't think the numbers are hurting like the Mule deer populations were. By putting the mule deer on draw and limiting the harvest...with the habitat and food sources the peace region offers and given mother nature taking it easy on the deer herds, it was only a matter of time before the numbers and quality of deer in that area went up...

To the point, I don't think a draw system accross the board will neccessarliy have the same effect on #'s and quality of Rams going up (especially as dramatically as in the peace and I assume the southerern zones though I don't hunt there).

With the Montana "managment' system, there are areas that if drawn, you have an excellant chance on scoring on a "book" ram. Yet a resident can still hunt other areas with a general tag. This is something I can see working here (with our draw system).

I just don't think the #'s of sheep and the # of hunters hunting them is that big of a problem....but if one could address a management strategy to grow bigger sheep in certain zones...I think there is some merrit to that....

[LongDraw]

Lets keep one thing in perspective when comparing Alberta bighorns and Montana's sheep herd;

Sheep are going to get bigger where they have an easier winter, and Montana does have some nasty sheep habitat, but the winters are way less severe. We are still in the deep freeze when there is green grass on the Missouri Breaks.

Bighorns in the Willmore are at the extreme northern tip of the Bighorn's range, and a book sheep is very rare from there, alot die of old age in the willmore. Seems we have the numbers, but the genetics for 16" bases is only in a few pockets in Alberta. We shouldn't judge the health of the herd just by the score of the ram, the Willmore proves this.

The Montana rams remind me of K country sheep that have easy winters, Just imagine how big K country sheep would get if there was 6 weeks less of nasty weather each year?, If it got green 3 weeks earlier?

Just look at the elk in Arizona, there are not elk that big up here even in Jasper or Banff, Yet they consistently kill bulls that gross over 400", and they seem to get bigger each year.

We could use a little more global warming up here to help out all of our herds, not just sheep.

Back to the draw idea;
Seems most guys wanting a draw or successful hunters to sit out longer are newer sheep hunters, or have not even seen legal rams on their outings. I think the idea of a draw, or longer waiting period changing guys success would not hold true. The biggest part of sheep hunting is getting out there and going hard on a consistent basis, not just one or two weekend jaunts a year. This is the "secret" to sheep hunting.

"I don't think that an increased number of sheep is a bad idea in anybodies book."

Too many sheep in an area can mean severe disease outbreaks. There's lots of factors but look at WMU 400. At one time it had one of the densest sheep populations in Alberta, then lung worm hit and dramatically reduced the herds. They have not recovered to a population anything like what used to be there. At least some nice rams are now present but the Ewe numbers are still low.
I suspect part of the problem is treeline infringing on winter range in a few valleys that should naturally burn every 50 years or so, prescribed burns in that area aren't exactly a safe option. I've found lots of areas that look grassy from a long range but up close just consist of small pines and decades of dead juniper stems.
This is a neat thread, i enjoy most threads that discuss management as I'll usually read some point of views or comments that are very interesting and well thought out.

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Lets keep one thing in perspective when comparing Alberta bighorns and Montana's sheep herd;

Sheep are going to get bigger where they have an easier winter, and Montana does have some nasty sheep habitat, but the winters are way less severe. We are still in the deep freeze when there is green grass on the Missouri Breaks.

Bighorns in the Willmore are at the extreme northern tip of the Bighorn's range, and a book sheep is very rare from there, alot die of old age in the willmore. Seems we have the numbers, but the genetics for 16" bases is only in a few pockets in Alberta. We shouldn't judge the health of the herd just by the score of the ram, the Willmore proves this.

The Montana rams remind me of K country sheep that have easy winters, Just imagine how big K country sheep would get if there was 6 weeks less of nasty weather each year?, If it got green 3 weeks earlier?

Just look at the elk in Arizona, there are not elk that big up here even in Jasper or Banff, Yet they consistently kill bulls that gross over 400", and they seem to get bigger each year.

We could use a little more global warming up here to help out all of our herds, not just sheep.

Back to the draw idea;
Seems most guys wanting a draw or successful hunters to sit out longer are newer sheep hunters, or have not even seen legal rams on their outings. I think the idea of a draw, or longer waiting period changing guys success would not hold true. The biggest part of sheep hunting is getting out there and going hard on a consistent basis, not just one or two weekend jaunts a year. This is the "secret" to sheep hunting.

Ya there's definitely truth to the weather comments but Montana really seems to have it figured out well.....In the past ten years they have put 261 rams in the book compared to Alberta's 54. I agree we may not mirror Montana's success no matter what we did but I think we could see a lot more book rams here with a modified version of their management plan. When you consider that one county alone in Montana is responsible for more book rams in the past 10 years than the entire province of Alberta...my interest is piqued.

I suspect more late-season hunts in Alberta would greatly increase the number of book rams as well. I mean look what's happening in 438. Maybe that's a better route. Create opportunity with more late-season draws rather than decreasing opportunity with regular season draws. This would help target sheep that are typically protected by parks and mines and such when they move out onto rutting slopes. It's worked in 408 as well.

[LongDraw]

I agree-

More late season draw opportunity would definately target sheep that are not even around until November. That would make more sense from a management/trophy potential point of view.

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I suspect more late-season hunts in Alberta would greatly increase the number of book rams as well. I mean look what's happening in 438. Maybe that's a better route. Create opportunity with more late-season draws rather than decreasing opportunity with regular season draws. This would help target sheep that are typically protected by parks and mines and such when they move out onto rutting slopes. It's worked in 408 as well.

Originally Posted by LongDraw

I agree-More late season draw opportunity would definately target sheep that are not even around until November. That would make more sense from a management/trophy potential point of view.

I also agree with both of you. This is one option were more trophy rams could be harvested, while allowing non succesful hunters to still be able to hunt year after year.
Your also getting to harvest some of these mature rams that would normally die from old age.

[sheep nut]

Originally Posted by pika

You are big time wrong on your assumptions on how many people hunt given WMU's. For example WMU 400 has an estimated 200 hunters with a sheep tag accessing it for sheep hunting according to the hunter surveys. Currently 3 rams are harvested most years. It has been suggested by SRD giving 5 tags for the WMU and put it on draw. 200/5= 40 years to draw a tag not including the people who will put in that don't currently hunt sheep. 75 percent of the sheep taken in this WMU are taken by poachers and subsistence hunters according to last years stats. TELL ME WHAT GOOD IS A DRAW FOR THIS PARTICULAR WMU?

You make my point. Everyone is saying " I never see a hunter". You say 200 hunters in 1 zone! I hunt 400 a lot because it's close. I see sheep hunters everywhere the first week and last week and only taking a few rams. Ive been hunting sheep for 21 years now and have been very sucessfull, ( and very picky). I wish I could hunt sheep every day, but I am concerned about our sheep first. Thats why I asked the question. I have hunted several valleys from the wilmore south to 400 and always seem to have a foot race to ther rams,but it sounds like I need to go exploring more. Some very interesting viewpoints though.

[sheep nut]

One thig I don't like are draws that if you don't get in on the first round you no chance of ever getting drawn.

Originally Posted by sheep nut

One thig I don't like are draws that if you don't get in on the first round you no chance of ever getting drawn.

That's the good thing about 438...it's a no priority draw. Now if I could just draw that 408 tag, I could start putting in there....lol

[Mintaka]

.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

This would help target sheep that are typically protected by parks and mines and such when they move out onto rutting slopes. It's worked in 408 as well.

Just take a quick look at all the sheep hunting ground we have lost to stupid parks that don't allow hunting in the last 10 years. At the rate we are going creating non hunting mountain parks there will have to be so many sheep that they won't even be living insight of a mountain to be in an area where we can hunt. Yeah, we really need to put sheep on a draw.

[Donny Bear]

I have not read the entire thread and sorry if I got off course with my last post. I think a few more draw areas in the easy access regions would be a good Idea and would reduce presures on said areas. I expect this would reduce hunters as those looking and hoping for an easy Ram would be less inclined to hunt the more remote areas. I am a priority 9 in 437 and it looks so bleak that it leads me to feel that it should be open to build priority and then select your draw zone soo you can change if so desired. I still have hopes for 437 before I am to old I figure if I don't get it in the next 20 yrs I'll be pooched JMHO

Note: Still hate seeing true Smashers dieing of old age because they are broomed off short.

[Pathfinder76]

TJ, please do not tell me that you think Montana's unlimited areas are any good. Cause they sure aren't. I also know my share of Montanan's that would like to hunt sheep in the draw zone's but know they will likely never draw. But yea, if you get drawn in a key zone you can walk up onto a hill a kill a book sheep. How thrilling.

For those that think a few draw zones are the answer, make it impossible to have your cake and eat it too. If you apply for a draw, you cannot buy a general tag that year.

I for one am not willing to gamble a lifetime of hunting opportunity for a possible one chance of going after one big ram. No thanks.

[Donny Bear]

Originally Posted by chuck

TJ, please do not tell me that you think Montana's unlimited areas are any good. Cause they sure aren't. I also know my share of Montanan's that would like to hunt sheep in the draw zone's but know they will likely never draw. But yea, if you get drawn in a key zone you can walk up onto a hill a kill a book sheep. How thrilling.

For those that think a few draw zones are the answer, make it impossible to have your cake and eat it too. If you apply for a draw, you cannot buy a general tag that year.

I for one am not willing to gamble a lifetime of hunting opportunity for a possible one chance of going after one big ram. No thanks.

If you get the draw you can not buy a general tag if you don't you can still get a general as it sits, so are you saying change it so that if you enter a draw you become ineligable for a general tag?

Originally Posted by chuck

TJ, please do not tell me that you think Montana's unlimited areas are any good. Cause they sure aren't. I also know my share of Montanan's that would like to hunt sheep in the draw zone's but know they will likely never draw. But yea, if you get drawn in a key zone you can walk up onto a hill a kill a book sheep. How thrilling.

For those that think a few draw zones are the answer, make it impossible to have your cake and eat it too. If you apply for a draw, you cannot buy a general tag that year.

I for one am not willing to gamble a lifetime of hunting opportunity for a possible one chance of going after one big ram. No thanks.

I know several people that will beg to differ with you about Montana's general areas....kind of like here I guess....there are sheep hunters that have it figured out and there are those that don't.

Why couldn't you buy a general tag if you don't draw. I'm not talking about anything new here.....Alberta already has a system where some areas are on draw and some aren't and if you don't draw you can buy a general tag...why would that change?

Can you please explain

I for one am not willing to gamble a lifetime of hunting opportunity for a possible one chance of going after one big ram. No thanks

I'm not sure what you are getting at??????

[LongDraw]

Chuck,

I hear you on some of the "exclusive" Montana units where you are basically an exocutioner. Same in Colorado. They know what all the sheep will score, as they have been photograohed so much, as well they name them, or refer to them by their ear tag number. Problem there is so few tags are given out that they are basically like a "park" herd that has become habituated to humans. I am sure there are other dynamics that enter into the way they manage their herds as well. Seems sheep have more tolerance to human encroachment than most species...

Certainly more gratifying to hunt sheep every year or two, than waiting maybe near a lifetime to "kill" one whopper that is looking at you chewing its cud thinking you are just another tourist..

[Swagger]

SHEEP HUNTING SHOULD NOT BE PUT ON DRAW!

My thoughts are that only individuals who are looking for an easy trophy want sheep to be put on draw. If we put sheep on draw, we will plug up the priority system with the folks who wouldn't otherwise be interested in sheep hunting. I expect it would be a long wait to get drawn.

I am a passionate sheep hunter. I don't hunt sheep because I want to kill a ram regularly. I hunt sheep because it is in my blood...it is a way of life for me! Sheep hunting is hard. It is supposed to be. That is what "we" like about it.

If you don't like the crowds...be more strategic in where and when you go.

I have way more to say about this topic than anyone cares to hear so I will leave it at that.

[Pathfinder76]

I know several people that will beg to differ with you about Montana's general areas....kind of like here I guess....there are sheep hunters that have it figured out and there are those that don't.

Why couldn't you buy a general tag if you don't draw. I'm not talking about anything new here.....Alberta already has a system where some areas are on draw and some aren't and if you don't draw you can buy a general tag...why would that change?

Can you please explain

There is not one zone in Alberta I would trade for Montana's unlimited areas, nor their quota system.

I'm well aware of the fact that we have zone's currently on draw for sheep. I would suggest that all but 438 aren't worth the application fee to put in for. Why would you begin to suggest that more such zones would be benificial? It would be an absolute target, once again, for subsistance hunter abuse. The numbers also suggest that I may never draw a tag. So for those of you that would push such a plan can do so, but I would propose that you have a choice. Put in for your draw and forfeight your right to buy a general tag for that year.

Are you commited or not?

I also think that 408's draw priority should be dumped in the toilet post haste. Put it to a lottery, and give everyone a chance.

Originally Posted by chuck

There is not one zone in Alberta I would trade for Montana's unlimited areas, nor their quota system.

I'm well aware of the fact that we have zone's currently on draw for sheep. I would suggest that all but 438 aren't worth the application fee to put in for. Why would you begin to suggest that more such zones would be benificial? It would be an absolute target, once again, for subsistance hunter abuse. The numbers also suggest that I may never draw a tag. So for those of you that would push such a plan can do so, but I would propose that you have a choice. Put in for your draw and forfeight your right to buy a general tag for that year.

Are you commited or not?

I also think that 408's draw priority should be dumped in the toilet post haste. Put it to a lottery, and give everyone a chance.

I think the important thing being missed is that both 438 and 408 are additional opportunities that allow hunters to hunt rams that are not in legal hunting areas during regular season....how can more sheep hunting opportunities be a bad thing.

I don't want to give up anything but I'd sure love some more opportunities.....

As for your comment on priority on draws such as 408....I think you are definitely on to something. New hunters are totally excluded from ever getting in on these draws....same as 437. The nice thing about a few more of these additional draws after the regular season is that it would spread the draw out and give more people opportunities. I mean why can't we hunt Wilderness areas? Why can't we hunt provincial parks? We used to be able to before they became parks. I don't know but I think more opportunities are a great idea as it doesn't prevent anyone from enjoying the great general season we have here and it increases hunter's opportunities and in my opinion increases the odds of taking some more trophy rams.

[pika]

Originally Posted by sheep nut

You make my point. Everyone is saying " I never see a hunter". You say 200 hunters in 1 zone! I hunt 400 a lot because it's close. I see sheep hunters everywhere the first week and last week and only taking a few rams. Ive been hunting sheep for 21 years now and have been very sucessfull, ( and very picky). I wish I could hunt sheep every day, but I am concerned about our sheep first. Thats why I asked the question. I have hunted several valleys from the wilmore south to 400 and always seem to have a foot race to ther rams,but it sounds like I need to go exploring more. Some very interesting viewpoints though.

q

[gunslinger]

For those that think a few draw zones are the answer, make it impossible to have your cake and eat it too. If you apply for a draw, you cannot buy a general tag that year.

chuck are you talking montana here cause that isnt the way it is here.

if you dont draw the tag you can still buy a over the counter tag.

[Pathfinder76]

I think the important thing being missed is that both 438 and 408 are additional opportunities that allow hunters to hunt rams that are not in legal hunting areas during regular season....how can more sheep hunting opportunities be a bad thing.

I couldn't agree more!

[lazy ike]

Originally Posted by chuck

I for one am not willing to gamble a lifetime of hunting opportunity for a possible one chance of going after one big ram. No thanks.

Could not agree more!

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As for your comment on priority on draws such as 408....I think you are definitely on to something. New hunters are totally excluded from ever getting in on these draws....same as 437. The nice thing about a few more of these additional draws after the regular season is that it would spread the draw out and give more people opportunities.

Chuck & Sheephunter - That is where it would be nice in some of the impossible draws in the province (ie 408) that they allocate say 75% of the tags to people using priority points, and say 25% to a random draw process. This would be an option unless in the impossible draw zones they scrapped the point system entirely. There are a number of various species draws in the province that could benefit from this.