My brass has loose pockets?

[michaelmicallef]

I loaded some 7 mm rem mag last night and noticed that the primers went in with very little effort. The brass has only been fired once before and the load was about 5% under max load. No other pressure signs present. Is this normal with Remington brass? Should I try Winchester. Can't find any high end brass around.

[TriggerHappyHippy]

My once fired federal brass has the same problem
was not a max load, but some pretty loose pockets
i prefer winchester brass, for that reason.

[leo]

All kinds of goofy things can cause pressure spikes. Was the brass trimed to length? Bullets seated a bit too deep? Bullets crimped? Not saying this is the cause, but that particular brass has been subjected to too much pressure and I would dispose of it.

[elkhunter11]

That is not normal with Remington brass. If the same primers go into the once fired Remington brass, much easier than they go into new Remington brass, then the primer pockets are expanding due to excessive pressure.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That is not normal with Remington brass. If the same primers go into the once fired Remington brass, much easier than they go into new Remington brass, then the primer pockets are expanding due to excessive pressure.

X2^^^^^^

Back to the books by the sounds of it

[purgatory.sv]

Just curious this brass that was loaded was it new brass or loaded ammo fired out of the rifle?

[michaelmicallef]

I have loaded them for one more go but not sure if I should pull them apart and try new brass. I have some new Rem brass ready to go. Just need the #@$## collet for my puller (had to order for my hornady puller). This is the brass that I loaded for the first time and never did anything to it except pull it out of the bag and load it. The new brass I have has been run through the resizing die to clean up the case mouths, and chamfered.

[purgatory.sv]

Just trying to isolate potential issues, but if this is just the second or third time the results point to some pressure or a poor batch of brass.

This is just my opinion I am not qualified.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Is there such thing as a primer pocket expansion gauge?

That would be a great tool to have to see if your pocket has expanded too much before you seat a primer in it and go off of feel only.

LC

[wally338]

I have found loose pockets on some factory Federal 100gr 243 ammo.I only use Winchester brass since.

[elkhunter11]

Is there such thing as a primer pocket expansion gauge?

Not that I am aware of, but if the ID of the primer pocket increases, the brass has to go somewhere, so the OD of the case head around that primer pocket has to expand. That case head expansion can be measured with a micrometer.

[michaelmicallef]

Ok, must be Remington brass. Just put some primers in some cases I bought yesterday and they went in with same tension. Think I will try Winchester brass next. Many products I have purchased recently have been plagued with poor quality issues. Don't want to get into that with you guys now but quality control are just words in a dictionary these days. I loaded some new Remington brass the other day for the 308 and there was a definite difference in the amount of pressure required to seat the primers in those cases.

[elkhunter11]

Ok, must be Remington brass. Just put some primers in some cases I bought yesterday and they went in with same tension. Think I will try Winchester brass next. Many products I have purchased recently have been plagued with poor quality issues. Don't want to get into that with you guys now but quality control are just words in a dictionary these days. I loaded some new Remington brass the other day for the 308 and there was a definite difference in the amount of pressure required to seat the primers in those cases.

Were you using the same primers in the 308? Different primers do vary somewhat as well, when it comes to seating them into a cartridge case.

One of the reasons that I do all of my priming with a hand priming tool, is that it makes it easier to feel just how much effort it takes, to seat a primer. You can't feel that nearly as well if you prime with your press.

[michaelmicallef]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Were you using the same primers in the 308? Different primers do vary somewhat as well, when it comes to seating them into a cartridge case.

One of the reasons that I do all of my priming with a hand priming tool, is that it makes it easier to feel just how much effort it takes, to seat a primer. You can't feel that nearly as well if you prime with your press.

Both primers are the same other than one is for magnum and one is not. I just tried measuring the inside of my primer pockets, tried different cases all about .208. Guess it depends on how you use the calipers. I am also using the rcbs hand primer. Maybe they are ok I don't have that much experience reloading. All I know is some primers take a lot of force to seat. The 7 mm primers went in with one hand and the lever on my hand primer bottomed out.

[elkhunter11]

Both primers are the same other than one is for magnum and one is not.

Since you didn't use the same primers, you can't be sure if the case dimensions are slightly different, or if the primer dimensions are slightly different.
You can prove if it is the case dimensions that are varying, by trying a few of the same primer in both the 308win, and 7mmremmag cases. When you have tried this, just deprime the cases that you want to use different primers in. You can also prove if the primer diameters are varying by trying both types of primer, in one case.

Just to demonstrate that primers do vary:

[michaelmicallef]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Since you didn't use the same primers, you can't be sure if the case dimensions are slightly different, or if the primer dimensions are slightly different.
You can prove if it is the case dimensions that are varying, by trying a few of the same primer in both the 308win, and 7mmremmag cases. When you have tried this, just deprime the cases that you want to use different primers in. You can also prove if the primer diameters are varying by trying both types of primer, in one case.

Just to demonstrate that primers do vary:

Looking at the chart the Winchester large rifle and Winchester magnum large rifle dimensions are the same. So I did use the same primers. Other than what's inside them. At least that's my understanding.

[Dick284]

Winchester primers?
Silver plated or not?
Because the unplated(brass colored) primers are a smudge smaller diameter.

I think EH 11's chart is a bit older with plated Winchester primers.

[elkhunter11]

The 7 mm primers went in with one hand and the lever on my hand primer bottomed out.

It should only take one hand to seat primers, and you should feel the primers bottom out.

Looking at the chart the Winchester large rifle and Winchester magnum large rifle dimensions are the same. So I did use the same primers. Other than what's inside them. At least that's my understanding.

You seem quick to assume that the Remington brass tolerances are out, but yet you appear willing to accept that the two different batches of primers are built exactly to specification. Like any other manufactured product, there are tolerances. Unless you used primers of the same type, and of the same lot#, you didn't use the same primers.

I think EH 11's chart is a bit older with plated Winchester primers.

Quite possibly, it's the only chart that I had handy, but it does demonstrate that the dimensions of primers do vary, even when comparing primers of the same type.

[Bushrat]

Measure your primers and primer pockets, diameter can vary between lots and sometimes within the same lot, primer stamping dies wear, primers off new dies may vary in size from primers that have been stamped on dies that have made several million primers, same applies to brass between lots and brands. I prefer federal primers they tend to be made slightly larger diameter than most others. Loose primer pockets don't always reflect a pressure problem, especially when it appears in new or once fired brass that hasn't been hot loaded, in that case it often is simply a difference in dimensions between manufacturers of both brass and primers.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Is there such thing as a primer pocket expansion gauge?
That would be a great tool to have to see if your pocket has expanded too much before you seat a primer in it and go off of feel only.
LC

http://www.google.ca/search?q=small+...ient=firefox-a

http://ecatalog.mitutoyo.com/Small-H...154-C1536.aspx

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/me...ortBy=none/asc

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/WES...Gage-Set-4KU94

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Not that I am aware of, but if the ID of the primer pocket increases, the brass has to go somewhere, so the OD of the case head around that primer pocket has to expand. That case head expansion can be measured with a micrometer.

There is much opinion as to whether case head growth is a reliable indicator of pressure. EH2 is correct that the brass has to go somewhere, but it does not have to go only to increase case head OD and IMHO the relationship between pressure and OD growth is not direct or linear.

I would also submit that the measurement of either pocket or case head expansion is beyond the accuracy of a beam caliper and requires a proper micrometer with a vernier scale to measure .0001.

Good Luck, YMMV

[michaelmicallef]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It should only take one hand to seat primers, and you should feel the primers bottom out.



You seem quick to assume that the Remington brass tolerances are out, but yet you appear willing to accept that the two different batches of primers are built exactly to specification. Like any other manufactured product, there are tolerances. Unless you used primers of the same type, and of the same lot#, you didn't use the same primers.



Quite possibly, it's the only chart that I had handy, but it does demonstrate that the dimensions of primers do vary, even when comparing primers of the same type.

Ok might be I don't know what I'm talking about as I am new to reloading. And all I know is with hornady brass it takes more effort to seat primers and with remington it seems effortless. What does a loose primer actually feel like? I might be fine. I'll make sure I wear safety glasses when I fire the my 7 mm and check for leakage around the primers. Maybe my hornady was too tight? Still learning and my confidence in many things I buy these days is low.

[michaelmicallef]

I'm sure someone could make some money setting up a reloading class to teach newbies (like me) the finer aspects of reloading. I changed the title of my post as describing feel online is somewhat difficult.

[elkhunter11]

There is much opinion as to whether case head growth is a reliable indicator of pressure. EH2 is correct that the brass has to go somewhere, but it does not have to go only to increase case head OD and IMHO the relationship between pressure and OD growth is not direct or linear.

Given that you won't be able to measure any increase in case head diameter until a certain pressure is reached(which will vary from case to case type, material, and hardness), case head expansion is certainly not direct or linear.

However, if I see a case head expand by .002" after one firing, I am going to back off the pressure charge, regardless of what the load is, or what the velocity is. In fact, I will back off the pressure charge for much less than .002" expansion. And guess what, every time that I have seen significant case head expansion, the primer pockets were also loose. It's not an exact science, but I will still pay attention to excessive case head expansion, and adjust my loads accordingly.

Ok might be I don't know what I'm talking about as I am new to reloading. And all I know is with hornady brass it takes more effort to seat primers and with remington it seems effortless. What does a loose primer actually feel like? I might be fine. I'll make sure I wear safety glasses when I fire the my 7 mm and check for leakage around the primers. Maybe my hornady was too tight? Still learning and my confidence in many things I buy these days is low.

If it took both hands to seat the primers in the Hornady brass, then they were tighter than necessary. The primer pockets on the Hornady brass may be a little on the small side, and the primer pockets on the Remington cases, may be a little on the large size. In any case, if the effort to seat a primer in either case changes significantly, I would pay attention to that fact.

[bulletman]

I have had very good success with Remington brass for the most part. Federal brass is another story. When my son bought his .300WSM he purchased one box of Federal Premium 165 Barnes Triple Shocks. The rifle ( Weatherby Vanguard) was so accurate it was really hard to beat with hand loads. It actually took me quite a while to come up with a load that shot as well. Of course, 60 bucks a box is not the kind of ammo you take to the range for practicing with. Anyway, when I finally put that Federal box thru the press, the primer pockets were pretty iffy. I have loaded Remington brass, for my .270 Wby. Mag. 9-10 times. They don't sell Remington brass in 7mm Wby. Mag. anymore. The Nosler lasts pretty good also, but way more money! It sure is pretty though!

[Traps]

There is much opinion as to whether case head growth is a reliable indicator of pressure. EH2 is correct that the brass has to go somewhere, but it does not have to go only to increase case head OD and IMHO the relationship between pressure and OD growth is not direct or linear.



There is no opinion involved as to whether case head growth is a reliable indicator of pressure. The end result is if you go from having normal primer pockets to loose ones more than likely your pressures are too high.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Given that you won't be able to measure any increase in case head diameter until a certain pressure is reached(which will vary from case to case type, material, and hardness), case head expansion is certainly not direct or linear.

However, if I see a case head expand by .002" after one firing, I am going to back off the pressure charge, regardless of what the load is, or what the velocity is. In fact, I will back off the pressure charge for much less than .002" expansion. And guess what, every time that I have seen significant case head expansion, the primer pockets were also loose. It's not an exact science, but I will still pay attention to excessive case head expansion, and adjust my loads accordingly.

In any case, if the effort to seat a primer in either case changes significantly, I would pay attention to that fact.

I agree.
Anytime that metal moves it is a strong indication that the load has passed the yield point. Since few of us have proper instrumentation needed to directly measure pressure loading, we must be very watchful for any and all indications that we are getting close to the limits of material strength. Case head and pocket expansion is easy to measure with affordable tooling and the feel of proper primer insertion force is something we need to learn by practice and experience and monitor carefully. Careful logging of individual loaded and fired case histories is very helpful. We always need to have caution and respect for the very high pressures that we are attempting to contain.

"Be thankful for luck, but don't count on it."

[michaelmicallef]

I measured the case head diameter on new and old brass ,no difference measured. I will be switching to different primers as soon as the Winchesters are gone. That might make a difference. Thanks for your help guys. I don't think I should have a problem. What made me question the looseness of the primer pockets is that I don't recall them (7mm rem brass) being that easy to seat. But I can't say for sure. I can assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, that different primers may fit tighter or looser in the same brass. And the same may be true if the brass changes but the primers stay the same.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Traps

There is much opinion as to whether case head growth is a reliable indicator of pressure. EH2 is correct that the brass has to go somewhere, but it does not have to go only to increase case head OD and IMHO the relationship between pressure and OD growth is not direct or linear.


There is no opinion involved as to whether case head growth is a reliable indicator of pressure. The end result is if you go from having normal primer pockets to loose ones more than likely your pressures are too high.

I agree that loose primer pockets are an indicator that the pressure MAY have been excessive, IMHO, it may also indicate soft brass or faulty pocket cleaning or accumulated tolerance of manufacture of case or primer.

The absence of case head expansion does not indicate absence of pressure.

I suspect that we will agree that if case head expansion is large after one firing or continues to accumulate after multiple firings then it is a cause for concern. IMHO the real issue is how accurately it is possible or practicable to measure and record case head expansion on a regular basis. I suspect that few people ever measure case head expansion and even fewer do it on a regular basis, YMMV. I would certainly NOT advise anyone to just keep increasing the load until the case head expanded XXamount or the primers started to drop out of the case.

[elkhunter11]

I suspect that we will agree that if case head expansion is large after one firing or continues to accumulate after multiple firings then it is a cause for concern. IMHO the real issue is how accurately it is possible or practicable to measure and record case head expansion on a regular basis. I suspect that few people ever measure case head expansion and even fewer do it on a regular basis, YMMV. I would certainly NOT advise anyone to just keep increasing the load until the case head expanded XXamount or the primers started to drop out of the case.

I use case head expansion, like any other reference. I realize that it can't be used to actually estimate pressure values, but rather I view significant case head expansion as a warning that excessive pressure is quite possibly present, and that I should investigate the situation, before firing that load again.

As to increasing the powder charge until I see X amount of case head expansion, I view that in the same light as simply increasing the powder charge, until I see X velocity on the chronograph. Neither case head expansion or velocity can be directly interpreted to pressure values, so neither method on it's own can be relied upon to estimate pressure. It would be so easy if the load data simply stated to start at X of powder for a given powder and bullet weight, and stop when you reach X amount of case head expansion, or X velocity, but I have yet to see commercial loading data that advices the handloader to do either of these. As such, unless we have actual pressure measuring equipment, our only recourse is to use the tools that we do have to try and ensure that our loads are safe in our firearms.

I pay attention to several things, such as case head expansion, brass extrusion, difficulty in opening the bolt, and velocity readings that don't seem reasonable to me, in my effort to detect, and avoid excessive pressure.

[bigshell]

If it requires the use of both arms on the lever of the ram to seat primers in the hornady brass I would be suspecting that brass of having undersized pockets.
A loose primer pocket is one where you can seat the primer in with you thumbnail or where the primer falls out.