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  #31  
Old 03-10-2013, 08:54 PM
tchardy1972 tchardy1972 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fish gunner View Post
Did I fax pas?? . When the mans shooting 4 under a dime what else do you call the 5th?? A squeaker. 1/4 moa at 100 gives 1 at 200 . As stated I'm no reloader but I do shoot a little.
What I was getting at is, was it a called flier? As in did he know it was a bad shot? If everything felt right when the shot broke and the bullet landed out of the group it might not matter what the other four rounds did. Only thing to do is load up and try to repeat it. Bullets sometimes land in tight group for the same reason they land in a two inch group. Like 260 said you need a large sample before you call it good.
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  #32  
Old 03-10-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tchardy1972 View Post
What I was getting at is, was it a called flier? As in did he know it was a bad shot? If everything felt right when the shot broke and the bullet landed out of the group it might not matter what the other four rounds did. Only thing to do is load up and try to repeat it. Bullets sometimes land in tight group for the same reason they land in a two inch group. Like 260 said you need a large sample before you call it good.
X2
Many times there is a step missed in the shot sequence, and a flyer results.
if the shot can be called, all the better, but proper follow through is needed for that as well, another part of the shot sequence that is often missed.
There are several things that make up a proper shot sequence, none of them more important than the other, but several are often left out.
Cat
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  #33  
Old 03-10-2013, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gopher View Post
Mark the hi side of bullet run out and chamber same way every time.

Chasseing ones ass with a semi-custom rifle never made much sense to me why not get a real bench rest rifle and do it right?
Thanks for the tip on marking run out, never heard of that before but I'll give it a go.

Not sure what your definition of a semi custom is? I bought an action (Defiance Rebel), bottom metal, trigger, custom barrel had a smith assemble and bed it... Is that a custom or a semi-custom?

Not sure how asking a question and generating a valid conversation constitutes chasing ones ass? doesn't matter what kind of rifle you shoot when you reload invariably you learn a lot about your rifle, load, shooting technique amongst many other things.

LC
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:25 AM
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It's not always the ammo or the gun that is the problem.
I've posted this before, but here is an example of what happens when form is not followed exactly.
These shots were alternated with the same hand loads, the only thing different was the slight amount of pressure on the butt stock of the rifle, that's it.
The range was 100 yards, and the difference in point of impact is quite noticeable.At 200 yards it would be twice the distance between the two groups.

Cat
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:42 AM
densa44 densa44 is offline
 
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Smile wow what a post.

I'm with the parallax boys. Cat sent me some instructions last year that may help here, he mentions all the steps and the order to take them. He fired a shot and used that as the aiming point for the rest of the group. If you can keep everything the same, and use the first hole as the aim point, I think you will see a very good group.

Bye the way feel free to ignore my advice because I don't shoot as well as some of the other AO members who have already posted, including LC.
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  #36  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:07 AM
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I also have suffered from the two group problem, it has gone away for now. I have remounted my scope bases, using a pinhead of JB weld on the corners. I have worked up a different load, changeing the COAL as well as upping the powder by a grain. I have tried to be more consistant in my rifle hold. I am not sure what to credit the change with, may be it is just hiding ready to leap out and bite me when I get too confident.
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  #37  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:27 AM
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Appreciate all the input and the discussion gents.....keep it coming

LC
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  #38  
Old 03-11-2013, 10:13 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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IMO when an experienced, decent shooter falls victiim to "two group syndrome (TGS)", while using a custom rifle with a known scope...the problem is likely a loading issue.
Consistent horizontal stringing is often related to "technique" (poor placement of the finger on the trigger, torque roll from a poorly placed forestock postion in the front bag, not reading wind effect properly.... and the list goes on).
Vertical stringing also has a myriad of potential roots, but the most common would be due to variations in velocity. In this category, it is up to the loader to test the various possibilites. Some of the more common velocity variations could be the result of: powder charge weight, seating depth, and neck tension. POWDER CHARGE WEIGHT is easliy resolved with a good scale and attention to detail (ie: "dip" the beam after it zeros every time to insure that the magnetic damper has enough beam movement to detect. / Insure the pile in the pan is at the same spot ---not off to the side one time and in the center the next...). SEATING DEPTH can be measured consistently only on the ogive...and even then, top shooters sometimes sort bullets by length form the base to the ogive. Variations can also occur in presses with loose linkages. That can be usually be resolved by insuring light contact between the shellholder and the seating die. Set it up so there is enough contact to just hold a piece of paper between the two at the top of the stroke. NECK TENSION of course requires brass with consistent neck thickness. Check by measuring the neck diameter before and after seating. Sometimes, there can be variations in brass spring back when using the Lee mandrel style sizer............
These possibilities are only a few...
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  #39  
Old 03-11-2013, 10:42 AM
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Thanks 260rem!

I also have to thank you for the assistance you have already given at the range and offered.

I have to drag out my chrony to see if velocity variation is a factor.

LC
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  #40  
Old 03-11-2013, 10:55 AM
duceman duceman is offline
 
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at 100 yds, with the case capacity you are running, inconsistent charges are probably not your issue here. you could have 1 grain variations at 100yds and not see a vertical difference.
pay special attention to neck tension. you can feel tension differences when seating a bullet; strive to pick loads that felt the same as they were seated.
if you feel a bullet go in harder or lighter than the majority, pull them from the batch and shoot separately.
i would swap primers, then powder, and retest if you feel your loading technique is good, lee.
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  #41  
Old 03-11-2013, 12:38 PM
6.5x47 lapua 6.5x47 lapua is offline
 
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LC you need a cheekpiece on that stock.your load is fine.i like a cheekweld that makes me force my cheek down on the stock to see through the scope.you may have minor tracking problems in your rest setup also.find the "sweet" spot on your forend where it sits on the rest by shooting groups and moving forend back and forth.remember to keep your thumb on the side of the gun.when breaking the trigger put same amount of pressure on your pinky finger as you do on your trigger finger to help balance out your trigger pull with hunting weight triggers.finally,put a dime on the end of the barrel and break trigger withuot moving dime.
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  #42  
Old 03-11-2013, 03:15 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Lefty- your welcome... I have spent 10 years making mistakes, so I have some advantage in diagnosing them
Good advice by duceman regarding seating resistance "feel" when seating. I always start the bullet, then turn it about 1/4 turn and complete the seat with another stroke. Seems easier to feel the difference that way compared with a single stroke.
Also reagrding "feel"... seating primers is important.....I like the old Lee autoprime because it has a long stroke --- Just recently bought the new version and it has a much shorter stroke and much less "feel". It is possible that when working up a load that some may have been a little hot which changes the diameter of the web (and of course, the primer pocket)..so some brass in the same lot you have fired may be a bit larger at the web (as witnessed by an easy primer seat). This has potential to be more of an issue with those who neck-size only.
Personally, I keep my brass in lots of five when I find five that shoot the same POI.
EDIT: Every little positive "change" can make an improvement in loading. It is much more difficult to go from getting consistent 1" groups than it is to get consistent 1/2" groups. The latter is a bit more challenging than a lot of shooters believe.
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  #43  
Old 03-11-2013, 03:54 PM
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Great thread. From a non pro's experience, preshot sequence is my downfall. 260 straightened me out on that one day with his 30 br . Personally i shoot my centerfire better with a thick coat, i think because the hinderance of it makes me think more about what I am doing. I also have a problem spending to much time on target and loosing sharp focus. The optic nerve is very sensitive to oxygen levels.

Ill be happy to show you improper form and marksmanship fundamentals next time I shoot. Lol. Remember to breath
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  #44  
Old 03-11-2013, 05:54 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Ahhh - flint..I remember that day...you know, the day you shot that tiny group that was a lot smaller than my "demo". I think the bottom line is, that a lot of shooters (like Flint), have the skills, it just takes a bit of "you could try this...and this is why it works". Set the rifle up properly on the rest for each shot and excercise some trigger control. It is all about consistency. Yes, breath through the shot.
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  #45  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:25 PM
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Well put 260. Im no pro, but spend alot of time listening, and have been on the fireline with some real top ranked shooters, just wish I understood half of what I heard. I question my skills all the time, it was great to shoot a rig like yours to prove to myself once in a while I might know what Im doing. I still have that target by the way... thanks again for that, one of the finest guns I ever sat behind.

The best training tool I have experienced is an intentional misfire. The old man would load my rifle for me, hand it to me, and once in a while it contained a spent shell. You would be amazed at the things you see yourself, and what a good partner can spot when you think that rifle is going off, and it doesn't. The pretention of dryfire excersize changes when you know yourself the gun is unloaded. I caught myself tourquing my rimfire the other day, pulled the trigger and the bipod moved a half inch right... it was a dud shell, and embarassing, but educational to say the least.

Dont mean to barge in as a rookie, but I always preach dryfire excersize. At home I used to fire my rifle more unloaded than I did loaded. Every time I set up at the range I dry fire on target a few times to make sure nothing moves, and again before every group. I shoot 50 rounds of 5 shots usually. I shoot off a bipod with a hard hold, my centerfire is a 300win mag so I have no choice but to hang on. This is going to sound rediculous, but I even make sure my tounge is in the same place in my mouth (mostly so I dont bite it off under the heavy recoil), and my jaw is clenched the same.

This season I want to work on taming my pulse and the jump it causes in my sight picture.
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  #46  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:33 PM
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I meant to say, to stay on topic with lefty. My personal "two group" experiences were the result of a cold finger, and cold cheek, shooting this time of year. The change in sensitivity made it tough to judge when I was laying my finger over sideways as opposed to square on the pad My cheek weld felt funny, as my cheek got cold and numb, probably changing my perception of downward pressure. Sweat in the summer months throws me also, both trigger finger and cheek weld. May I say again my groups are not world class, but take that for what its worth.
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  #47  
Old 03-15-2013, 11:20 AM
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Another target set....more questions



Based on this target set....I think this load is worth pursuing further, shot at 100m. This target was shot a couple weeks ago....I was going through my reloading and range book.

If I can get my bench form and scope parallax all sorted out I hope to be able to keep them all touching!

Funny how trying to shoot bench rest can drive a guy crazy...I never thought a sub-moa 5 shot group would make me disappointed!

LC
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  #48  
Old 03-15-2013, 12:45 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Funny how trying to shoot bench rest can drive a guy crazy...I never thought a sub-moa 5 shot group would make me disappointed!

LC[/QUOTE]
Accuracy is compulsive mistress. It starts with trying to get sub MOA, then 3/4, then 1/2... Courting her is expensive. But, it's OK to fall in love
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  #49  
Old 03-15-2013, 03:25 PM
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I had a run in with 2 group last hunting season with my normally very accurate 338 wm, went through all the usual checks and found nothing so I bought a new Leupold scope- problem solved. It was a 10 year old Leupold that had been bang on for years. Sent it to Korth for warranty, there was an issue with the collimator which they took care of free of course. No more 2 groups and now I have a spare Leupold if this ever happens in hunting season again. Guess I'm saying you may have a scope issue-I hope not, gets a bit spendy.
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  #50  
Old 03-15-2013, 09:21 PM
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Out of curiosity what were the condition(s) you were shooting in?
The load looks capable, and rifle is showing it can place them together.
One of the big variables is, did the wind conditions change during the group causing the bullet impact to be different?
Even on what seems like a calm day, there is slight changes in wind velocity and direction that can not always be seen, and it does have an effect on bullet flight.
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  #51  
Old 03-15-2013, 09:24 PM
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If I recall....(and this could be totally wrong) it was quite calm and wind if any was at my back.

LC
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  #52  
Old 03-15-2013, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered user View Post
I had a run in with 2 group last hunting season with my normally very accurate 338 wm, went through all the usual checks and found nothing so I bought a new Leupold scope- problem solved. It was a 10 year old Leupold that had been bang on for years. Sent it to Korth for warranty, there was an issue with the collimator which they took care of free of course. No more 2 groups and now I have a spare Leupold if this ever happens in hunting season again. Guess I'm saying you may have a scope issue-I hope not, gets a bit spendy.
In post number 4 on this thread I mentioned that as my number one culprit when I suddenly start seeing double grouping. I've had it happen more than once. Of course, if the double grouping is only occurring with certain loads, while others shoot bug holes, then that would eliminate the scope as a potential source of the problem.
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  #53  
Old 03-17-2013, 12:49 PM
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I think that scope parallax is the majority of my issue here along with consistent cheek weld....(a major piece of the puzzle I overlooked!)...once I get a chance to hit the range again after this weather smartens up I will let you all know how it goes.

LC
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  #54  
Old 03-17-2013, 02:29 PM
twofifty twofifty is offline
 
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Default cheek weld reference point

This year I will stick a piece of "Moleskin" tape on my stock, to act as a tactile (not tactical) reference point for my cheek weld.

Has anybody here tried doing this?
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  #55  
Old 03-17-2013, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twofifty View Post
This year I will stick a piece of "Moleskin" tape on my stock, to act as a tactile (not tactical) reference point for my cheek weld.

Has anybody here tried doing this?
Yup, many actually use a wash cloth taped to the comb as well, but moleskin seems to work best.
You can also buy a rubber type of cover with self adhesive on it.
Consistent cheek pressure is not one of my problems thankfully ( I have enough others!), but many have that issue.
Cat
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  #56  
Old 03-17-2013, 06:36 PM
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Against better judgement I hit the range today. It was bitterly cold with the wind chill and I knew my shooting would suffer but I had to go....

So I took some of the advice from this thread and concentrated on consistent cheek weld positioning. I was able to measure using my fingers tucked tight and flat together ( like they would in a mitt) from a spot on my stock to my cheek and strangely enough this put a sight window in my scope to the point just after the vignette disappeared (hopefully a point of little to no parallax).

Shot 2 different loads and was able to get this effect.....looks like I was able to eliminate the 2 shot grouping...but I will keep trying to maintain it. Also only loaded up 4 of each load as I was seeing the difference in brand of primers with same load.



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