Albertan's Want More Antelope

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

1- already being done
2-would it benefit, some thinks so, some dont seem too
3-not required, if not counterproductive
4-already being done

Number two is the only one with wiggle room. It could be any idea in that spot. That one seems to have all the benefits with none of the hangover. Just my opinion

I didn't realize there is a bounty on coyotes, how much?
And I think the rest would help over a few years in building up the population.
Getting rid of the non trophy season woul be a big one I think.
And I mean lowering the resident tags temporarily by choice not because we have to.
The smooth wire on the bottom of the fence has been a great program also.
Unfortunately we can't control hard winters.
This is also just my opinion.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by elkhunter1234

Sorry to disappoint you WB.. I have always and will always respect your opioion, and I fully agree that there are many layers to this onion, but I never will support a non trophy hunt for ether antelope or bighorns, I guess it's my ranching background but I see no good at all in taking a 3-6 year old doe or ewe out of the breeding stock. Concidering a doe antelope could give birth and raise upward of 20 fawns over the course of her lifespan. I guess if there was a way of culling the old and non fertile females than have ater..

Jim...

Agreed but im 50/50 last sentance Elk. Theres for sure benefit to removal of old does in lots of scenarios. Even here in what we call limited antelope range, its huge country. Carrying capacity and competition for available food sources will never be an issue. Antelope are little creatures and even in intensive ranching/grass utilization scenarios, antelope cause no problems, utilize little feed and are a treat to have more than a hindrance.
Old antelope does are a God send, and a curse at the same time, as any one thats hunted them will testify. Old does have seen it all and nothing gets past thier eye. Younger are more apt to be curious and potentially even advance an unknown visual, until percieved a threat. Old girls take nothing for granted and will pull daughters, grand daughters, fawns and anyone else in a family group herd out of any scenario fast. Old geriatric does have saved the life of many big bucks and does during rifle and archery hunts for many years. Again they are a God send and a curse at the same time. They are oftentimes the driver behind keeping family groups alive.
Even if past reproductive age, i am not certain for all the benefits that old females in any species provide, makes them undesirable. Old antelope does are the ones with all the knowlege, lead herds be it summer pattern to known water holes, some seasonal, through to migration and routes etc etc. The list of benefits and knowlege these old does can contain for the herd is immeasurable and would need alot of space to list here.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

I didn't realize there is a bounty on coyotes, how much?
And I think the rest would help over a few years in building up the population.
Getting rid of the non trophy season woul be a big one I think.
And I mean lowering the resident tags temporarily by choice not because we have to.
The smooth wire on the bottom of the fence has been a great program also.
Unfortunately we can't control hard winters.
This is also just my opinion.

Some counties have bounties in place, however these programs exist for social reasons, not for pronghorn or any other native specie benefit. Wildlife is a kickack recipient. Bounty price depends upon the scenario, but is driven by science and is instituted or stalled based mostly around actual coyote population dynamics, population health, ie; percent prevalence of mange, etc, and at times even in opposition to ground level AEP staff. Higher prevelance of mange can be indicator of higher pops, and some staff would prefer natural mortality drivers as such did the work. Guess it depends where ya sit and on the scenario. Price is set by county.
Im not certain antelope hunters need to be removed from the situation and have a different opinion. I think we need stronger herd dynamics, and hunters, both resident and non resident are the driver behind it.
Id like to see more of alot of things available to antelope. Im not sure of budgetary constraints within APOS, but i think it would be cool to see kickback for project equipment rental costs or material costs, donated to maybe something like our provinces antelope fencing project etc. Maybe they have been helping in places as such, and maybe they are just another of Albertas unsung quiet supporters, i am not sure. I agree with others here when they say we are all in it together, and i think antelope are a worthy candidate for abit of help.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by farmerbrown

I'd be interested to know what the actual carrying capacity is in Alberta for Antelope. I would guess that changes from year to year due to rainfall etc..

Edit: Sorry PH I didn't read your post correctly. I really don't know much about the Antelope situation but from what I can gather Some of the States like Montana have sustained large numbers of Antelope and certainly don't seem to have issues like we have here with ten and twelve year waits.

So what are they doing that we aren't would be my question? Can we learn from their management practices and bring our population up substantialy?

For starters you can find Pronghorn throughout the whole state of Montana where as in Alberta your limited to pretty much the south end of this province that right there is a huge difference.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

For starters you can find Pronghorn throughout the whole state of Montana where as in Alberta your limited to pretty much the south end of this province that right there is a huge difference.

Our southern portion that harbours antelope is also the size of a US state. Northern tip of their range or not, post glaciation we now have some of the best antelope range out there. Our high plains are extremely fertile and diverse. We should be easily able to promote a stronger herd with higher trophy antelope harvest allocation than we do.

[The Spank]

and take up waterfowling....there's a 50 birds/day limit on white geese with no posession limit. That's more meat in the freezer than any Pronghorn, trophy or otherwise can provide.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by elkhunter1234

Sorry to disappoint you WB.. I have always and will always respect your opioion, and I fully agree that there are many layers to this onion, but I never will support a non trophy hunt for ether antelope or bighorns, I guess it's my ranching background but I see no good at all in taking a 3-6 year old doe or ewe out of the breeding stock. Concidering a doe antelope could give birth and raise upward of 20 fawns over the course of her lifespan. I guess if there was a way of culling the old and non fertile females than have ater..

Jim...

I'll get over it Jim.

------------------

So many here are calling for reducing or eliminating the doe season in reaction to a belief that the Pronghorns are in trouble and need every last one for potential recruitment. I trust that you are making this decision with facts and not emotion.

What is the current population? Break it down to management areas.

What percentage of does are we harvesting?

How does this compare with historical numbers?


If you can't answer these questions right now, how do you justify your position?
Elk1234 has given his reasoning, what is yours?

[nube]

Looks like you didn't get a response from the individual who was so vocal about shutting outfitters down to increase tag numbers...........
There are a few things to do to better the herds for sure but of course it takes money as well as people in power that want to make things better.
Shutting down doe hunts is a good idea for a start.
I would love to know how coyotes come into play on the newborns as well. I would suspect coyotes are the only real predator out there other than vehicles. I don't think Vehicles are a real issue though.
Can't change winters and I doubt a feed program would work and it would cost too much if winters were bad.
My 2 cents worth..

[StenneS]

Apparently there was Antelope in the Peace region long ago. One would assume the winters were still as harsh back then as they are nowadays. So yes winters affect their survival but I think quality habitat via fencing programs and predator control combined with the axing of non-trophy class hunting as well as saying adios to the doe hunting would help things out. Part of that quality habitat would be protecting the sagebrush would help our Southern Alberta population. Try that for a 5 year period and re-evaluate when the time comes...

[elkhunter1234]

Originally Posted by nube

Looks like you didn't get a response from the individual who was so vocal about shutting outfitters down to increase tag numbers...........
There are a few things to do to better the herds for sure but of course it takes money as well as people in power that want to make things better.
Shutting down doe hunts is a good idea for a start.
I would love to know how coyotes come into play on the newborns as well. I would suspect coyotes are the only real predator out there other than vehicles. I don't think Vehicles are a real issue though.
Can't change winters and I doubt a feed program would work and it would cost too much if winters were bad.
My 2 cents worth..

I believe coyotes are a small issue with antelope newborns, I have witnessed far more fawns killed by eagles (Balds and Golden's) than by coyotes, but not much we can do to prevent that...
I'm not saying that Albertas antelope population are in trouble, just saying we should look at reducing or better yet eliminating the non-trophy tags and increasing the trophy tags. By not killing the does will bring more bucks into play.
Also winter feeding programs do work. I know a few local ranches in the Deep South that always go into winter with an extra 20 big rounds to help the antelope during the long cold snaps we get, and yes the late springs storms we get when the females are fawning are a tuff one for the little guys to deal with.... I'm not sure what the best long term plan is, but I know killing females should not be part of it.. I know there are family's that need a cow elk or moose to get there family's through winter but I don't know of anyone that relays on a non trophy antelope one every 5 or 6 years to make it through..

Again just my 2 cents..

Jim...

[walking buffalo]

Bueller? B.....

No one can or will answer the population/harvest questions.

Yet many are convinced there is a problem, are more than happy to eliminate resident hunting opportunity on a whim.

[bonedogg]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Bueller? B.....

No one can or will answer the population/harvest questions.

Yet many are convinced there is a problem, are more than happy to eliminate resident hunting opportunity on a whim.

he's the sausage king of Chicago?.........lol

[nube]

Originally Posted by elkhunter1234

I believe coyotes are a small issue with antelope newborns, I have witnessed far more fawns killed by eagles (Balds and Golden's) than by coyotes, but not much we can do to prevent that...
I'm not saying that Albertas antelope population are in trouble, just saying we should look at reducing or better yet eliminating the non-trophy tags and increasing the trophy tags. By not killing the does will bring more bucks into play.
Also winter feeding programs do work. I know a few local ranches in the Deep South that always go into winter with an extra 20 big rounds to help the antelope during the long cold snaps we get, and yes the late springs storms we get when the females are fawning are a tuff one for the little guys to deal with.... I'm not sure what the best long term plan is, but I know killing females should not be part of it.. I know there are family's that need a cow elk or moose to get there family's through winter but I don't know of anyone that relays on a non trophy antelope one every 5 or 6 years to make it through..

Again just my 2 cents..

Jim...

Cool to know about the coyotes not being a threat. Surprised to hear Eagles are more of a problem. And Yes I still think a feed program does not work because you have to have a farmer every 5 miles or so across the whole prairie that is going to participate for it to work properly. It might work for one local herd if a farmer does it but that is not really doing an over all good thing for all antelope numbers in my mind. Good luck finding farmers to chip in $2K a year or so to feed wildlife on their own.

Walking Buff I don't think people are saying there is a problem with numbers really and that they think the antelope are in trouble in any way. I think they just want to see an increase in numbers of tags given and less wait. To do that we need numbers up more. The logical thinking for most is cut the doe tags.

For me I don't think anything will work enough for people to stop complaining about draw waits. I said years ago draw wait times will go way up and people laughed at me. Guess what! they are going to get even worse and there really isn't much that will change it. Enjoy it while you can and with what you got left in my mind.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by nube

Walking Buff I don't think people are saying there is a problem with numbers really and that they think the antelope are in trouble in any way. I think they just want to see an increase in numbers of tags given and less wait. To do that we need numbers up more. The logical thinking for most is cut the doe tags.

For me I don't think anything will work enough for people to stop complaining about draw waits. I said years ago draw wait times will go way up and people laughed at me. Guess what! they are going to get even worse and there really isn't much that will change it. Enjoy it while you can and with what you got left in my mind.

Let's say your supposition is correct.


How is giving up 1000 licences over five years going to give us an increase in hunter opportunity?

Those 1000 tags have to be replaced by well over 1000 in year six-seven to be a wise investment.

How much will the population growth rate increase if we do not shoot these few does? A 5% increase in population growth? Could the increased population growth ever significantly effect the desired goal?

What if we experience another killer winter while waiting to reap from the investment?
We will have a ZERO return on investment if this happens, which is a safe bet.


If those RESIDENT hunters that are thrilled with receiving a non-trophy tag lose this opportunity,
will the Outfitters be content to NOT share in any increased Trophy tags in the future?


What are people really asking for?

It seems that the call to eliminate doe tags until the herd has reached critical mass are making the request with a desire to increase their likelihood to have a Trophy tag. This all boils down to the chasing of bone, or in this case, keratin.
"Stop killing does, I want to kill a Trophy."

Nope, I for one will not be happy giving up my legitimate and conservation minded doe tag for the desires of others to chase horns. The doe hunt is sustainable within the goals for an increasing populations, it is a legitimate Resident opportunity that many of us love to have.


The only hunting related management issue that F&W has really had a difficult time implementing is offering enough tags when the populations is high. In the good years we have historically under harvest both bucks and does. The issue is one of hunter density and landowner relations. F&W is reluctant to issue the number of tags possible due to a concerns the locals will not like the orange army moving in. Hunters have lost out on tens of thousands of possible tags over the last 60 years due to this concern. And the herds suffered. Populations were too high and when a bad winter hit tens of thousands of Pronghorns would die in a couple of months.

IMO, F&W has to INCREASE buck and doe Allowable Harvest percentage WELL BEFORE the population grows past 20,000. Stockpiling wildlife is known to be a failure waiting to happen.

[nube]

You feel the same about the Ewe harvest for sheep as well?

[StenneS]

Originally Posted by nube

You feel the same about the Ewe harvest for sheep as well?

Exactly.

It's not about chasing keratin it's about trying to increase the overall numbers, a larger population in hopes that it will pay off and increase tag allotment down the road.

[walking buffalo]

Hell yes.

I've been a strong proponent of getting our ewe harvest back to the mid 80's level,
back to where they were in the "Glory" days of lots of BIG Rams.

[nube]

Originally Posted by StenneS

Exactly.

It's not about chasing keratin it's about trying to increase the overall numbers, a larger population in hopes that it will pay off and increase tag allotment down the road.

Kinda my thoughts as well. The higher the numbers the more bone to chase so it works for everyone.
I'm not a Biologist so maybe my thinking isn't right but I sure don't put any faith in our Bios here in Alberta after watching their constant screw ups and also some of their Anti hunting and trapping ideas as well coming from some of them. I bet some of them don't even get out in the outdoors to see what is really going on!

[eggy]

Is the state of our antelope really that bad? I know the bad winters kicked the crap out of them but they seem to be rebounding quite well. I've been trying to find population estimates but can't seem to find anything, anybody know where to find this? Just looking at the zone I was drawn for this year and the number of tags have doubled since last year and last year they were doubled from the previous year. If you look at the top 10 antelope shot in alberta, 6 or 7 have been shot in the last ten years. I'm not saying things couldn't be better but don't think it is as bad as some people think.

[StenneS]

From what I've seen online the population estimates for other species are incredibly dated and not often are large evaluations done... not that I can find anyways. There are large gaps in their study dates at times, decades or more from what I've found on the government website, I'm not sure if the Antelope numbers are kept up to date though.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Let's say your supposition is correct.


How is giving up 1000 licences over five years going to give us an increase in hunter opportunity?

Those 1000 tags have to be replaced by well over 1000 in year six-seven to be a wise investment.

How much will the population growth rate increase if we do not shoot these few does? A 5% increase in population growth? Could the increased population growth ever significantly effect the desired goal?

What if we experience another killer winter while waiting to reap from the investment?
We will have a ZERO return on investment if this happens, which is a safe bet.


If those RESIDENT hunters that are thrilled with receiving a non-trophy tag lose this opportunity,
will the Outfitters be content to NOT share in any increased Trophy tags in the future?


What are people really asking for?

It seems that the call to eliminate doe tags until the herd has reached critical mass are making the request with a desire to increase their likelihood to have a Trophy tag. This all boils down to the chasing of bone, or in this case, keratin.
"Stop killing does, I want to kill a Trophy."

Nope, I for one will not be happy giving up my legitimate and conservation minded doe tag for the desires of others to chase horns. The doe hunt is sustainable within the goals for an increasing populations, it is a legitimate Resident opportunity that many of us love to have.


The only hunting related management issue that F&W has really had a difficult time implementing is offering enough tags when the populations is high. In the good years we have historically under harvest both bucks and does. The issue is one of hunter density and landowner relations. F&W is reluctant to issue the number of tags possible due to a concerns the locals will not like the orange army moving in. Hunters have lost out on tens of thousands of possible tags over the last 60 years due to this concern. And the herds suffered. Populations were too high and when a bad winter hit tens of thousands of Pronghorns would die in a couple of months.

IMO, F&W has to INCREASE buck and doe Allowable Harvest percentage WELL BEFORE the population grows past 20,000. Stockpiling wildlife is known to be a failure waiting to happen.

Firstly, this is the most ridiculous string of sentences, statements and questions ive ever seen, anywhere regarding anything.
Its apparent you never saw our antelope herds in the 80's and 90's. Wanna see antelope. Take your 20,000 antelope numbers and shove it. Same for all your foux talk of antelope mgmt. Its just ridiculous, and its apparent you are not only trying too hard, but you as well dont have a clue.
Anyone reading this with half a functioning brain is shaking thier head. Top to bottom this baby epitomizes just how severe our problems are today, and it isnt animal or habitat problems we have, its people problems.
Walking Buffalo if this is the best you can conjure up after reading and surmising for two days, man i wish you All the best, truly. I have said what needed to be said, popular or not, and for personal health and well being here, am simply unable to proceed with this caliber and volume of unbalanced, irresponsible, nonsensical rhetoric.
Keep a strain on er fellas

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Nope, I for one will not be happy giving up my legitimate and conservation minded doe tag for the desires of others to chase horns. The doe hunt is sustainable within the goals for an increasing populations, it is a legitimate Resident opportunity that many of us love to have.

^^^^^^^

It has been about 9 years since I last took a non trophy antelope. My priority is now about 8 so I will start applying again. I have not applied for a trophy tag for over 30 years just because I am leaving them for the real hunters. I will not feel guilty in any way for taking advantage of the opportunity. I will not be happy if I do not have the opportunity.

[Smokinyotes]

Myself i believe game management is similar to raising cattle. You cant sell all your heifer calves in the fall and expect to keep the same number of cows each year. And you cant sell cows without keeping replacement heifers.

If you are trying to build a herd you dont go culling a large percentage of your females each fall.

Close the non trophy antelope season for at least 5 years then reevaluate the population.

Increase the trophy antelope size to 10". Success rate would go down but a few years from now there would be more mature bucks.

[walking buffalo]

Forward a week....

Pack still can't or won't produce any information on populations estimates and harvest rates. Spouts his routine frenzied rant instead.

Lots of guys here calling to end the NT hunt without having or providing any data to back up their position.

Reminds me of Pamela.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Forward a week....

Pack still can't or won't produce any information on populations estimates and harvest rates. Spouts his routine frenzied rant instead.

Lots of guys here calling to end the NT hunt without having or providing any data to back up their position.

Reminds me of Pamela.

Not sure who Pamela is WB, guess i should get in front of the television and try to keep up with reality.
Theres a massive disconnect. Its between what really is and what is perceived. You can demand that i go join this "ultra informed club", and look at the touted numbers till the cows come home. To what end, everyone is staring at paper with nothing proposed besides questions. It will accomplish NOTHING. Reality is out here WB. Its right in front of everyone looking at this on a daily basis. Its clearly evident to those that have seen this thing going back to when we had something. No "frenzied rant" here at all.
If its more antelope that vested parties want, theres plenty of room for them, and theres ample opportunity available to maintain higher numbers than we are, believe those that are staring at it daily out here!
With the way our antelope are managed, its a wonder what this thing would look like of they were cwd carriers. They sure wouldnt be hard to get rid of in thier current state!

[DMaterelli]

If you want more antelope you need better habitat. Oil and gas and agriculture have further fragmented the remaining contiguous blocks of range.

Antelope are largely migratory and need these big tracts of range.

All of the other things (predators, winters etc) are all important too, but that remaining range land is crucial for long term species survival.

[covey ridge]

So the plan is no one should get to hunt antelope until the trophy hunters get numbers to keep them happy?

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by DMaterelli

If you want more antelope you need better habitat. Oil and gas and agriculture have further fragmented the remaining contiguous blocks of range.

Antelope are largely migratory and need these big tracts of range.

All of the other things (predators, winters etc) are all important too, but that remaining range land is crucial for long term species survival.

Oil and gas has not one iota fragmented pronghorn range. The fragmentation that has transpired via hiways, farming etc, is seeing mitigation through antelope friendly fencing upgrades that allow easier migration. You are dreaming if you think Ab has seen factors that limit or prevent pronghorn from herd numbers we had in the 80s and 90s.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

So the plan is no one should get to hunt antelope until the trophy hunters get numbers to keep them happy?

There is no plan. Besides that us resident hunters have been heard multiple times, and the consensus is in... we want to shoot the hell out of them because trophy pronghorn draw stats show that its now once in a lifetime draw. Does, bucks, we want to hammer down. WB wants tag increases on does. He and friends want to light em up, they want those 2 safeway bags of meat from thier antelope does. Yup, the voice of us, the resident has been clear. Dont let them make more antelope that can further benefit hunters, kill em and keep pointing fingers.

[BDAJ]

Looking forward to my Antelope hunt this October. It's been a 10 year wait! Along with my late season elk tag, and hopefully a ton of moisture, access will be greater and I'll have a successful season.

Number of hunters increasing. Number of quality animals decreasing. Along with some ****e weather and localized disease every now and then, I imagine certain species take a hit in certain areas. Over the last 20+ years of hunting the south, I feel the Antelope population is currently doing well. Not great, but well. I've seen it at it's worse, as you all have. Don't think it is time for concern quite yet.

For those that were drawn this season, best of luck in your respective WMU's! I have faith that the heaven's will open up in due time, making for an enjoyable Antelope season!

Regards,

BDAJ