Albertan's Want More Antelope

[packhuntr]

Walking Buffalo.
Yes there is some good info there. No one alive is able to contest that all you have mentioned has cumulative effect on herds here, some with immediate and drastic potential. Most definitely some can be mitigated, others you mention simply cannot be in todays world, and are nothing more than detracting. Your attempts with mentioning removal of farming and ranching could be likened to stove piping and hiding the good potatoes in the middle of a bag of rotten ones. If killing does is a good thing, and provides for net zero cumulative impact, please be sure to notify Fish and Wildlife, sportsmens organizations and concerned sportsmen, as the protection and seasonal closures of many fish and wildlife species are simply not required, and simply need not concern itself/themselves with both sportsmen and native harvest or other sources of controllable mortality.
What a relief, anyone in the animal husbandry business will be thrilled to hear that one can most easily, "be in the game", from dog breeders to camels, through over utilization to outright shooting of the females. Babies galore...
Go back and rethink your stance on this...
I might stress that with the attitudes presented by many here lately, and subsequent desire expressed to see the potential realized for a stronger Ab pronghorn population and all benefits that may come with it, provided favorable conditions are seen met or capable of being adjusted too,,, that thought be applied to some of the factors that are within our control, and of which are capable of promoting calculable short and longer term positive results. Low hanging fruit if you will hey. While i might agree that short term fixes are sometimes poor choices, the benefit of both short and long term benefit must not be overlooked, nor should anything with potential benefit as such be UNDERMINED.
Discussion and heavy scrutinization is beneficial, but questionably so as seen in your above post with the flatbed load of mirrors and smoke you dropped off. If the intent is to purposely dilute and see something, anything lost to maintain status quo or other, i might say you are doing an excellent job, though for purposes i am not yet able to identify.
I see no reasoning why we are unable to advance/make better our antelope situation. Can you tell me simply, why we shouldnt?

[packhuntr]

If you are able to answer that question i presented at the end there WB, please do so utilizing common sence, and your own words. No further reference to studies etc etc that we all have access too and have read, required, just pure logic and common sence please.
Thanks

[FlyTheory]

Take a decade off killing them and allow them to reproduce...?

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by FlyTheory

Take a decade off killing them and allow them to reproduce...?

I dont think that would be required, unless you are referencing specifically doe's and the potential for better production FlyTheory.

[seven0eight]

As others have noted, pronghorn are at the northern edge of their range in Alberta. Herds here have always been limited by winter severity; they've probably never hit a carrying capacity in the tradition sense. We likely could (and maybe should) support herd growth with aggressive fencing retrofit projects (ACA and others are doing this now), but there are problems with other major infrastructure (a migration pinch point east of med hat, e.g.). Allowing wolves to recolonize parts of the prairie would also help their fate by limiting coyote populations and behavior... but no rancher in that area is ever going to accept that. So pretty much the only lever wildlife managers have is limiting tags, especially for non-trophy harvest.

[Full Curl Earl]

I never really felt the smoke and mirrors your claiming bout WB?
But his input has value, increasing Antelope numbers isn't difficult, but must be a multi layered, multi agency approach. Hunters need to start a vigil at calving times and control predators, laws need to be put in place for antelope friendly fencing. (This is more damaging to antelope than most think), and provincial government representatives need to take input from the largest user group about the status of animals on the ground, Hunters.
But, as is evidenced here on AO, were a disorganized mess!

[Okotokian]

nevermind. answered.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

I never really felt the smoke and mirrors your claiming bout WB?
But his input has value, increasing Antelope numbers isn't difficult, but must be a multi layered, multi agency approach. Hunters need to start a vigil at calving times and control predators, laws need to be put in place for antelope friendly fencing. (This is more damaging to antelope than most think), and provincial government representatives need to take input from the largest user group about the status of animals on the ground, Hunters.
But, as is evidenced here on AO, were a disorganized mess!

Again,,, i dont think any of the aforementioned is being contested. It is reality. What also must not be contested is the blatantly obvious fact that, having a ranch in somewhat working order, does not constitute one a rancher. One must have cows to produce saleable calves.
We have the ground. Why would we not focus on maximizing our herd in light of all the presented issues?
All these semantics and azz sniffing is tiresome. Management of any and all types can still today, contrary to apparent widespread belief, benefit from the application of simple common sense.

[walking buffalo]

Well Pack,

Have you noticed how your thread emulates what you decried in Deerhunter's?



You have adjusted all discussion to focus on one thing, ending the non-trophy harvest.

Keep dodging any recognition that the current and historical (last 100 years) doe harvest has not caused either a significant population increase or decrease.

Never mind that reducing hunting mortality is pointless if these animals do not have the habitat to survive in....

We can't stockpile wildlife.
We can't expect wildlife to prosper without allowing them to have access to a good home and groceries.

Look after their basic needs and they will prosper.

Not hunting them while allowing increased loss of habitat and increased barriers to their survival is pointless. The animals will still suffer.

Your cry to end the doe hunt will not effect any change to the reality of what drives the Pronghorn's population.


With that said, considering the continued habitat digression and loss due to human activity, our Pronghorns are doing just fine.
As has happened thousands of time in their history, they are rebounding quickly after a hard winter.

[packhuntr]

Putting all else aside with your response, including your ridiculous opening statement,,
Would your reasoning here with this topic as well apply to our far southern range tip caribou habitat and herd? Your logic would claim that a reopening of our caribou hunt and utilization of caribou cows will have no impact upon herd dynamics and success, and that what does exist for harvest, natives, has zero net impact here?
Look after the basics and the herd prospers,,, copy that....
Looks like theres yet more missed opportunity available in this province. Better jump to it...
Edit. We have the pronghorn habitat and feed, albeit our region has potential to be harsh at times. Reason number 136 why optimization through mgmt is a no brainer. This is obvious to those that see this habitat and herd on a daily basis. Arguments to the contrary are so far off base it is stunning.

[StenneS]

I'd personally like to see non-trophy class Antelope hunting taken away (for now), improved habitat through fencing projects, also and either sex option not on the table as well. Give that 5 years, after getting a good solid report on the population as a baseline and compare. If there is a ****ty weather event in that time then extend that period. I have a lot of confidence that if those things are done there will be a net increase in the population. For a lot of us those 5 years will be difficult as there will be less hunting opportunities but after a 5 year period or so some adjustments could be made as the population would be greater and some non-trophy allocations could be a healthy option.

[StenneS]

Not to derail this thread completely but as a newer hunter it seems as if the States has a better management system in place and / or that their game is better managed. For the size of the land we have and the possibility for great habitat it seems like our numbers are terribly low for many species.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by StenneS

Not to derail this thread completely but as a newer hunter it seems as if the States has a better management system in place and / or that their game is better managed. For the size of the land we have and the possibility for great habitat it seems like our numbers are terribly low for many species.

Do they get as harsh of winters as we do? Do they set 5 year guaranteed tag allocations? Do they allow non-trophy harvest?

Antelope are at their northern most range in Alberta, I would think these fringe areas have the greatest challenges when it comes to management.

LC

[bonecollector10]

My only suggestion would be to imply some sort of law similar to the 3/4 curl our rams have. I get it that waiting upwards of 10 years can stress a guy out, and seeing as the season is sometimes only days long doesn't help.

However I'm afraid that on day 4-5 a guy will shoot the first buck he sees as to not go home empty and waste a 13 year draw. Its not a question of waiting for a trophy buck but more so not killing all the healthy breeding bucks.

[russ]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Do they get as harsh of winters as we do? Do they set 5 year guaranteed tag allocations? Do they allow non-trophy harvest?

Antelope are at their northernmost range in Alberta, I would think these fringe areas have the greatest challenges when it comes to management.

LC

This is the challenge we're facing, we get decent numbers and boom one bad winter and we're back to square one or worse. The problem isn't over hunting for the most part. It's the weather, which is entirely out of F&W's control.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by bonecollector10

My only suggestion would be to imply some sort of law similar to the 3/4 curl our rams have. I get it that waiting upwards of 10 years can stress a guy out, and seeing as the season is sometimes only days long doesn't help.

However I'm afraid that on day 4-5 a guy will shoot the first buck he sees as to not go home empty and waste a 13 year draw. Its not a question of waiting for a trophy buck but more so not killing all the healthy breeding bucks.

You touched on something that is an issue...some zones are now once in a lifetime for antelope....with odds like that, not many guys are going home empty handed if they have never shot one before.

Goats also bounce back faster than other species, maturing in 4-5 year as opposed to 6-8 years. BUT they also suffer worse with bad winters, and they can actually migrate large distances to and from the US.

LC

[StenneS]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Do they get as harsh of winters as we do? Do they set 5 year guaranteed tag allocations? Do they allow non-trophy harvest?

Antelope are at their northern most range in Alberta, I would think these fringe areas have the greatest challenges when it comes to management.

LC

I don't think harsh winters are a relatively new concern though. Yes they are on the fringe of their territory but from accounts of the past it seems like their numbers were once higher around here... no?

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Do they get as harsh of winters as we do? Do they set 5 year guaranteed tag allocations? Do they allow non-trophy harvest?

Antelope are at their northern most range in Alberta, I would think these fringe areas have the greatest challenges when it comes to management.

LC

Lefty i dont think outfitters and a 5 yr review have anything to do with anything in this conversation. Annual utilization of 40 bucks is nothing. Couple that with the fact that they harvest bucks, i dont think any issues reside with buck harvest in any way shape or form, resident or non resident. If antelope have the potential to be managed to make more antelope, it resides with us residents killing does that is the concern and it sticks out like a sore pickle. Guys have screamed bloody murder over wanting more tags, and basically, they said they want outfitters tags to accomplish it. Assinine... what they should be saying is that they want better herds that can relieve strain from compounding resident draw system pressure.
900 resident killed antelope does would have made for a pile of antelope in recent good winter years. If its a better herd guys want, heres the lowest and easiest picking fruit anyone could ask for. Or you can keep blaming the outfitter man, whatever.
We have the habitat, and we have the feed. There is ample to harbour a massive elk herd, the one everyone was screaming for sustainable management of. And yet we dont have room for pronghorn. Anyone saying theres no habitat and feed are out of touch with reality. Guess we will see them down here next time they have a tag for something. Until then they maybe ought not pretend they are up to date with reality, and an unbiased and impartial voice. Something is wrong Or something is up behind the scenes if guys are not receptive of bettering the herd here. It isnt making sense.

[bonecollector10]

Originally Posted by russ

This is the challenge we're facing, we get decent numbers and boom one bad winter and we're back to square one or worse. The problem isn't over hunting for the most part. It's the weather, which is entirely out of F&W's control.

I agree with the weather portion as the pronghorn are at the weathers mercy, a lot more then other ungulates. However, if the weather is the issue of depleting herds then the govt needs to do a better job of stepping in year after year and "riding the wave". Look how quick sask. was to shut down their canadian resident tag when we suffered those two bad winters, and these are for whiteys.

[russ]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Lefty I don't think Outfitters and a 5 yr review have anything to do with anything in this conversation.

It has everything to do with this conversation. Knowing the effects of winter weather on herd health but still allowing an arbitrary number of tags to outfitters is disgraceful. Has it occurred to anyone over at APOS that maybe, just maybe arbitrary allotments on a dynamic population prone to extreme swings doesn't work? Maybe the best solution is to not allow allotments for antelope under any circumstance.

[packhuntr]

Ahh the infamous russ...
Russ do you know where babies come from. Serious question, because it feels like we just stepped back in time 15 000 years here. You know that killing bucks has no bearing on this hey, that bucks gather and feverishly hold territory and harems, and that one buck can service a pile of does. You know that males dont have babies, right russ?

[russ]

When there isn't enough bucks to breed the available does it is most definitely an issue. Thanks for coming out though.

[packhuntr]

Russ, you wouldnt try to bull s@t anyone on here would you?

[Lefty-Canuck]

I mentioned winters and eliminating non-trophy harvest and you only noticed allocations

Not blaming the outfitters but all stakeholders have a hand in management. When numbers need to be managed all stakeholders need to take an active roll. Absolutely the doe harvest needs to be cut back or removed, when carrying capacity allows re-instate it if needed IMHO.

Other issue like hardfast measurable rules as to who can hunt as a resident are paramount IMHO.

LC

[packhuntr]

I dont KNOW that we need to cut doe tags. I am only attempting to draw attention to something that i think everyone seems to hold dear and close, and guys seem to believe is an important herd in Ab. With low numbers and AEP feverishly attempting to up the trophy antelope tags on what is a renewable resource, to satisfy sky rocketing demand, i see them painting themselves into a corner with a young age base herd. I think everyone is praying solid weather holds and continues to help out. If it doesnt, we are in trouble. This herd is in real tough shape in areas. I can show you boys herds that havnt had a fawn in 5 years. Coyotes killed them all. Grant you the one herd is done and the entire geographic area is down to 8 antelope. No recovery since winterkills, zero recruitment. This is not BS, and i will load anyone in my pickup and be glad to take them for a drive. Antelope need numbers to be successful. Predators are having a field day with watching these few does fawn out. They will and do find and kill fawns, but with low numbers the damage is total in many areas.
Dropping doe draws would provide recruitment numbers that would serve as multi faceted win. Older age class does to teach their young migration routes to the best wintering habitat, to better moms that can successfully raise and keep alive more fawns, through to teaching predation avoidance.
Higher volume bucks reaching older age class, that are physically developed and strong, capable of successfully defending territory and does from thwarting attempts from volume young sattelite bucks, to capability servicing volume does, and better ability to come out of the rut in good enough condition to take on migration. The list could go on and on why more, stronger and older antelope are required to see future success here.
We can only hope that people are actually thinking about this. If they are, there are many reasons why what we are doing is fundamentally backwards. There is a chance for much more with this herd, and guys should be amply armed with knowlege to be able to understand that there is much more to benefit us if we want it. With more fawns on the ground, everyone wins. Its just that simple.
Aside from it all, and this doe hunt being easily picked fruit that guys can see potential benefit from, it is only ideas thrown out. What else is there that maybe isnt being looked at, would be a better question i suppose.

[BuckCuller]

1. Varmint control ( bounty on coyotes.)
2. Shut down non trophy season.
3. Temporarily shut down outfitter and nonresident tags.
4. Temporarily lower resident tag numbers.

[heretohunt]

I believe that in time we will lose this pronghorn hunting entirely. It will certainly not be due to hunting it will be just like the sage grouse and the Woodland Caribou. . Quality habitat loss. It's a big factor, change of habitat and habitat loss.
There is far more oil field activity and ranching down there and that brings with it people, coyotes and less good habitat. It's not a popular side of the story but it is a fact. The truth is I don't believe there's much we can do about it. Enjoy it while we have it.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

1. Varmint control ( bounty on coyotes.)
2. Shut down non trophy season.
3. Temporarily shut down outfitter and nonresident tags.
4. Temporarily lower resident tag numbers.

1- already being done
2-would it benefit, some thinks so, some dont seem too
3-not required, if not counterproductive
4-already being done

Number two is the only one with wiggle room. It could be any idea in that spot. That one seems to have all the benefits with none of the hangover. Just my opinion

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by heretohunt

I believe that in time we will lose this pronghorn hunting entirely. It will certainly not be due to hunting it will be just like the sage grouse and the Woodland Caribou. . Quality habitat loss. It's a big factor, change of habitat and habitat loss.
There is far more oil field activity and ranching down there and that brings with it people, coyotes and less good habitat. It's not a popular side of the story but it is a fact. The truth is I don't believe there's much we can do about it. Enjoy it while we have it.

Coyotes tailed herds of bison, elk etc for years on the plains cleaning up afterbirth etc. They still do it on ranches, and they know not that its privately owned cattle they are checking nightly. Overall they are a vital player in this ecosystem still and they are here to stay. I hope your wrong about the antelope though man, and im not sold. Our plains landbase in Ab is massive. Theres alot of talk about this habitat degradation, but many of us down here see a alot of vast and very intact country. Overall I think if ya want pronghorn gone from Ab, youd have to want them gone first. To maintain as viable i think they need just abit of help is all.

[elkhunter1234]

Sorry to disappoint you WB.. I have always and will always respect your opioion, and I fully agree that there are many layers to this onion, but I never will support a non trophy hunt for ether antelope or bighorns, I guess it's my ranching background but I see no good at all in taking a 3-6 year old doe or ewe out of the breeding stock. Concidering a doe antelope could give birth and raise upward of 20 fawns over the course of her lifespan. I guess if there was a way of culling the old and non fertile females than have ater..

Jim...