Stockingfoot waders crushing my feet

[Runewolf1973]

I would say that I am a pretty normal, healthy, active 44 year old. I have no health concerns, I'm not overweight or diabetic or anything like that. I've worn normal bootfoot hip waders and have also wet-waded with no such problems. Right now when I step into the water with my stockingfoot waders I feel the water pressure as I go deeper, but I tend to stay in the same spot and same depth for over an hour or more. After 30 min my feet start to feel tingly form the pressure and the lack of blood flow that pressure is creating. The pressure I can handle fine, whatever, but I never imagined these waders to be just plain uncomfortable to wear for extended periods in deeper water. It feels like wearing a tight rubber glove on your hand that's two sizes to small for you. I don't know what's going on with this. It's frustrating the hell out of me. Maybe other guys just move around a lot more from shallow to deeper water that they're not noticing this effect? I don't know. Maybe I'm putting them on wrong? Am I supposed to put them on underwater or whilst standing on my head?...like what the heck. As soon as I step out of the water that pressure dissipates...and water pressure at 4 foot depth is really **** all. When I wet wade I feel the water pressure sure and it's very minimal and doesn't bother me in the least, but there is no extreme tightnes in the legs and feet when I wet wade, only when I put the waders on. I'm going to get someone else I know to try these waders on to see if they feel what I'm feeling. Maybe it's the difference between real gortex material and a knockoff type, or a heavier, denser layered material versus a thinner material. I notice the Simms waders feel a lot more rigid, thicker and substantial in the leg than these...they're stiff almost compared to these other waders I've tried. Maybe because of that, the Simms waders just don't collapse like this underwater. I just don't know...

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[Runewolf1973]

So out of curiosity and sheer frustration, I decided to get someone else (my wife) to try the waders on in the river. Of course the boots and waders were too big on her, but I wanted to see what would happen anyways. As she stepped into the water up to her ankles and then up to her knees initially she said it didn't feel too bad only a slight amount of pressure. I then told her to go up to her waist which she did. She said that in waist deep water it felt like her legs and feet/ankles were being crushed in by intense pressure. She said it felt extremely uncomfortable and she thinks the same thing...just standing in water fishing should not be uncomfortable or hurt her feet. She wades with the kids at the lake all the time with no issue whatsoever like this. Neither of us have any health issues and I would let anyone else here try the waders on if you really wanted to prove they don't do the same thing for you. I'd be willing to bet money you'ld feel just as uncomfortable too.

It is possible that the really high-end waders like the Simms don't do this with their stiffer 3 layered gortex material (maybe the extra rigidity allows for better equalization of pressure or something), but I had high hopes for the Frogg Toggs Anura II waders. They looked like really decent waders and unfortunately I'm not prepared to spend the money on Simms waders to find out if they are any better.

[pikergolf]

Most unusual problem, it must be very frustrating. Where do you live, maybe someone could loan you a pair of Simms to try out?

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by ÜberFly

Are you diabetic or have any Neuropathy? You don't have to disclose on a discussion forum, but just fielding possibilities.

I wondered about that. Otherwise I have no explanation as to why wader booties that are loose on you somehow crush your feet, even when you are not wearing boots over them. It's like putting on a pair of shoes three sizes too large and complaining that they are too tight. I'm at a loss. I guess wet wade in the summer when you don't need waders, and wear the sort with the built in boots at other times. Good luck!

[SNAPFisher]

That is weird. I guess it must be the particular waders. I just bought Simms because that is what they had at the Fishing Hole at the time. The next time I bought Reddington waders without even really thinking about brand. Both fine. both great.

[damaltor]

This is truely strange, I have had varies waders, Simms, William Joseph and currently 2 pairs of Patagonias and I've never experienced anything like what you describe.
Hope you figure it out.

[badger]

My guess is that the wader feet are flattened in the water when you are deep. This allows the water pressure to be applied to the top of your feet, and the rigid material does not allow the pressure to be felt from the sides. You sense it to be crushing from the top and would be worse when standing on the bottom compared to suspending your foot above the bottom at the same depth.

When wet wading the pressure is equal from all over, and you don't feel the pressure only from the top. My suggestion is to put on bigger socks to fill the stocking foot preventing it from flattening. Worth a try?

[Runewolf1973]

Originally Posted by badger

My guess is that the wader feet are flattened in the water when you are deep. This allows the water pressure to be applied to the top of your feet, and the rigid material does not allow the pressure to be felt from the sides. You sense it to be crushing from the top and would be worse when standing on the bottom compared to suspending your foot above the bottom at the same depth.

When wet wading the pressure is equal from all over, and you don't feel the pressure only from the top. My suggestion is to put on bigger socks to fill the stocking foot preventing it from flattening. Worth a try?

I'll give it a try. Thanks.

[Runewolf1973]

I think I figured out what is happening with these waders. It's basically the same thing (albeit a little less severe) that divers with drysuits experience. It's called drysuit squeeze...look it up. The water pressure forces all the air out creating a partial vacuum. Divers with drysuits use an air injection system that equalizes the pressure in the suit with the water pressure on the outside so the water pressure doesn't crush them. At depths this so-called suit-squeeze can be dangerous. In my waders it's just rather uncomfortable. As far as to why it's happening with these particular waders I have no idea.

[damaltor]

Hmmm... you may have an explanation there, but using the term vacuum is inaccurate, it is the effect of compression.
The waders make you part of a closed container - when it compresses, you get comressed in it.
Apparently you must be more sensitive to this effect or the waders are somehow enhancing it??

[Runewolf1973]

Originally Posted by damaltor

Hmmm... you may have an explanation there, but using the term vacuum is inaccurate, it is the effect of compression.
The waders make you part of a closed container - when it compresses, you get comressed in it.
Apparently you must be more sensitive to this effect or the waders are somehow enhancing it??

Fair enough. I'm not a physics expert, so you may be right, but with the waders on underwater this compressed feeling is literally tenfold of the feeling I get without waders. I am not the only one who feels it either since my wife also said it was extremely uncomfortable and her ankles started to hurt. It's not merely a sensivity thing. Waders should not feel uncomfortable to wear underwater and they shouldn't make your feet go numb, or tingle, or cause pain after 15 minutes of wearing. I'm going to contact the manufacturer and ask them why this is happening. Somehow they are just not allowing the pressure underwater to equalize like apparently other waders like the Simms do.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

I disagree about the vacuum pressure. There is most definitely a vacuum pressure created when all the air is forced out of the wader by the water pressure. If you don't believe me you can look up how to vacuum seal bags of food or whatever using water pressure as a means of forcing the air out of the bags. It's the same principal.

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

I think I figured out what is happening with these waders. It's basically the same thing (albeit a little less severe) that divers with drysuits experience. It's called drysuit squeeze...look it up. The water pressure forces all the air out creating a partial vacuum. Divers with drysuits use an air injection system that equalizes the pressure in the suit with the water pressure on the outside so the water pressure doesn't crush them. At depths this so-called suit-squeeze can be dangerous. In my waders it's just rather uncomfortable. As far as to why it's happening with these particular waders I have no idea.

Lets get some things clear here...

A vacuum is space void of all matter including air.

Vacuum pressure is a negative pressure relative to atmospheric pressure.

Putting a bag of food into water to squeeze the air out much like when wearing your waders in the water does not create a vacuum nor does it create vacuum pressure(not significantly anyways). It simply pushes the air out of the bag or waders creating an air free space. Sealing the bag while the food is under water then keeps the air from entering back into the bag. Once the sealed bag is removed from the water the pressure inside the bag is actually higher then the air around it(the opposite of vacuum pressure) because it is the same pressure as it was when under the water.

An actual vacuum sealer uses a pump and the venturi effect to first suck the air out of the bag and then create a minor vacuum pressure before the bag is sealed.

If you compare a properly vacuum sealed bag of food vs one just sealed under water you will notice a significant difference in the two. The one from the water will be very pliable whereas the vacuum sealed one will have much more rigidity. Both methods work fine for protecting food though because the pressure isn't the issue it is the air and both methods get rid of it.

Now to address drysuit squeeze, as I said before.

Originally Posted by RavYak

Waders do feel tighter then wet wading. It is the feeling of the material not the pressure. If the neoprene boots are a bit tight the elasticity of them will create some pressure too and all this can be amplified by poor fitting shoes with pressure points etc.

This is roughly along the same lines as the drysuit squeeze that you mentioned. The pressure from the water pushes the material against you which due to friction/rubbing, material stretch/tightness and trapped air pockets causes localised pressure points in certain areas.

The reason drysuit squeeze can actually cause bruising etc is because of the much higher pressure difference at surface/depth. A more detailed explanation of what actually causes these is that as a diver goes deeper the water pressure builds compressing the air inside the suit. Eventually if the diver doesn't add more air the suit makes a seal against the divers skin. Any trapped air pockets will then continue to compress but once the drysuit material can no longer compress(say at seams and folds which create voids that cannot be filled by the drysuit material) then at this point a small vacuum starts to form which pulls the divers skin into the air pocket as the air continues to compress. This stretches and pinches in the skin causing the brusing etc associated with drysuit squeeze.

If the diver adds more air as he descends then the air gap is maintained and although the pressure is still the same on his body it is distributed evenly by the air and localised pressure points are avoided.

At the roughly 3 ft of depth you will be wading there is only a 9% increase on the external pressure and assuming your are wearing clothes in your waders it is highly unlikely any of these issues related to drysuit sqeeze are affecting you.

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

Fair enough. I'm not a physics expert, so you may be right, but with the waders on underwater this compressed feeling is literally tenfold of the feeling I get without waders. I am not the only one who feels it either since my wife also said it was extremely uncomfortable and her ankles started to hurt. It's not merely a sensivity thing. Waders should not feel uncomfortable to wear underwater and they shouldn't make your feet go numb, or tingle, or cause pain after 15 minutes of wearing. I'm going to contact the manufacturer and ask them why this is happening. Somehow they are just not allowing the pressure underwater to equalize like apparently other waders like the Simms do.

As I said before either your waders/shoes are too tight which is being amplified by the water pressure or you are sensitive to this pressure/affect of the material being pushed against you.

You are the only person I have heard to say they feel so much pain etc from waders and you have now tried 2 sets so it seems obvious it has something to do with you(sensitivity, body shape or something) or you tried 2 pairs of poorly fitting waders.

If your feet are actually going numb/tingly then there are 2 possible causes.

1) Your waders/shoes are too tight and combined with the water pressure it is cutting off your circulation. You may have poor circulation too which is why this might be affecting you more then most.

2) They are going numb/tingly because of the cold not the pressure. Wearing thicker warmer socks should help but it can also amplify cause 1. When I go kayak fishing early season and it is near/sub freezing out I have to wear 2 pairs of thick socks in order to keep my feet warm in my waders. They still eventually go cold and numb though because these extra layers are too tight inside my waders and boots(which I can improve by not wearing the boots).

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

I'll give it a try. Thanks.

Get another fly fisherman to try them that doesn't have problems.

Best data point I can think of right now.
Also
Try the waders with only long jons on.

Sometimes people use jeans and the seams can push on nerves and veins.

[Runewolf1973]

I live just in downtown Red deer. Is there anyone around here that's willing to try these things on for me? I am size 11 in these.

[Runewolf1973]

Got an email back from Frogg Toggs today and they said it's possible I got a defective pair of waders. I donn't really see how but whatever...maybe one of the inner breathable linings was sewn in backwards or something? Lol. Was out fishing last night and I asked the two older gentlemen who were there also fly fishing and wearing breathable waders. They recommended going with a higher quality wader like Simms.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

Got an email back from Frogg Toggs today and they said it's possible I got a defective pair of waders. I donn't really see how but whatever...maybe one of the inner breathable linings was sewn in backwards or something? Lol. Was out fishing last night and I asked the two older gentlemen who were there also fly fishing and wearing breathable waders. They recommended going with a higher quality wader like Simms.

sounds to me like the seams on the waders or the seams on your pants or your socks are bunched up and are pushing against your leg nerves causing trouble.

Since your wife had the same issue it would be my first thought after a circulation problem. Heart strength to push blood into legs compressed by water could be an issue. Gout would continue to be a problem after the waders were off. Tight boots also could be a problem.

[Runewolf1973]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

sounds to me like the seams on the waders or the seams on your pants or your socks are bunched up and are pushing against your leg nerves causing trouble.

Since your wife had the same issue it would be my first thought after a circulation problem. Heart strength to push blood into legs compressed by water could be an issue. Gout would continue to be a problem after the waders were off. Tight boots also could be a problem.

The boots aren't too tight since the waders do the same thing even with the boots off underwater and my wife has much smaller feet than I do and they crushed her ankles as well. The neoprene booties are also the proper size for my feet based on the size chart and the sales person who was helping me with sizes...neither too tight, nor too loose that I can tell they feel just fine out of water. I tried different ways of wearing the waders...different socks, no socks, different pants, pants loose, pants tucked in with socks. No difference in how the waders feel. I don't have gout or a circulation problem. I am not super sentisitve to pain or anything like that either, I think I actually have a higher pain tolerance than most, but I do know when something is plain uncomfortable. If these waders were truly breathable, should they not allow enough breathability for some pressure equalization on the inside and out? There should be some pressure and I was completely expecting that...water pressure...like normal wet wading water pressure or maybe slightly more, but it shouldn't be so much pressure that it even begins to pinch nerves or cut off circulation to my feet. That's unacceptable. I'm not just sensitive to pressure, it's not just a feeling or sensation, these things are physically crushing my feet underwater.



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[Runewolf1973]

I'm starting to think this is the difference between real gore-tex and the cheaper knockoff breathable materials.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

The boots aren't too tight since the waders do the same thing even with the boots off underwater and my wife has much smaller feet than I do and they crushed her ankles as well. The neoprene booties are also the proper size for my feet based on the size chart and the sales person who was helping me with sizes...neither too tight, nor too loose that I can tell they feel just fine out of water. I tried different ways of wearing the waders...different socks, no socks, different pants, pants loose, pants tucked in with socks. No difference in how the waders feel. I don't have gout or a circulation problem. I am not super sentisitve to pain or anything like that either, I think I actually have a higher pain tolerance than most, but I do know when something is plain uncomfortable. If these waders were truly breathable, should they not allow enough breathability for some pressure equalization on the inside and out? There should be some pressure and I was completely expecting that...water pressure...like normal wet wading water pressure or maybe slightly more, but it shouldn't be so much pressure that it even begins to pinch nerves or cut off circulation to my feet. That's unacceptable. I'm not just sensitive to pressure, it's not just a feeling or sensation, these things are physically crushing my feet underwater.



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Do you wear socks then stockingfoot waders...then neoprene socks over top of that then boots?

[Runewolf1973]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Do you wear socks then stockingfoot waders...then neoprene socks over top of that then boots?

No, that doesn't make sense to me to wear socks over the neoprene booties.

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[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

No, that doesn't make sense to me to wear socks over the neoprene booties.

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yup i have seen that though

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

I'm starting to think this is the difference between real gore-tex and the cheaper knockoff breathable materials.

Not the material. For one you say it is the feet that are bothering you which is neoprene on almost all waders.

Originally Posted by Runewolf1973

The boots aren't too tight since the waders do the same thing even with the boots off underwater and my wife has much smaller feet than I do and they crushed her ankles as well. The neoprene booties are also the proper size for my feet based on the size chart and the sales person who was helping me with sizes...neither too tight, nor too loose that I can tell they feel just fine out of water. I tried different ways of wearing the waders...different socks, no socks, different pants, pants loose, pants tucked in with socks. No difference in how the waders feel. I don't have gout or a circulation problem. I am not super sentisitve to pain or anything like that either, I think I actually have a higher pain tolerance than most, but I do know when something is plain uncomfortable. If these waders were truly breathable, should they not allow enough breathability for some pressure equalization on the inside and out? There should be some pressure and I was completely expecting that...water pressure...like normal wet wading water pressure or maybe slightly more, but it shouldn't be so much pressure that it even begins to pinch nerves or cut off circulation to my feet. That's unacceptable. I'm not just sensitive to pressure, it's not just a feeling or sensation, these things are physically crushing my feet underwater.

The problem is that what you are saying doesn't make sense. Think about this logically.

To get pinched nerves and numbness etc one of either two things is happening.

1) Large amounts of pressure are being applied to your feet pinching nerves and/or cutting off circulation.

2) Only regular amounts of pressure caused from waders are being applied to your feet but you get pinched nerves etc easier then most.

1 is only possible if your waders or boots do not fit properly. The pressure points should be easy to identify, then you just need to figure out how to reduce that pressure(different waders, different socks, different pants, whatever is causing the pressure problem).

You say you have tried 2 different types of waders now, with and without boots, variety of clothing options and you have been unable to notice any of these obvious pressure points. You say as far as you can tell and the people selling you the waders can tell that they fit properly.

That means it isn't the waders... Hence why I say I think you are just sensitive to this pressure/sensation.

Uncomfortable is one thing and you most likely will feel some uncomfortableness when wearing waders. Pain and numbness is something completely different and it is either due to poor fitting waders etc or your bodies inability to cope with them.

Figure out which one it is, we can't help you any further because we have already gone over all the possible issues and you say none of them are the problem.

[highwood]

This thread is still going on? 4 options. Suck it up, different size, different waders, or wet wade. Let's not try to reinvent the wheel. And to those that are suggesting he has peripheral edema or diabetic neuropathy causing this pain....no. Just no.

[Runewolf1973]

I bought different waders. I said to heck with stockingfoot waders for now and went with some bootfoot 3.5mm neoprene waders. Yah, maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I don't really care. When I can afford it next year I will maybe try some Simms stockingfoot waders.


Thanks for all the effort you guys puy into trying to help me with this.

[Runewolf1973]

So I'm really enjoying the bootfoot waders so far. Having no problems at all. My feet don't hurt while wading in them and they are really easy to slip into and take off in a jiffy. With the addition of thick felt insoles in the bottom of the boots and wearing heavy socks they are perfect.

[The Spank]

I used to have a pair of Cabelas Dry Plus breathable bootfoot waders. They were simply great. Comfy as hell. Nicest waders I ever owned. I don't know if they still have them or not? Now I have a pair of Itasca Big Boy 1000 gram insulated bootfoot neoprene waders. Great for late fall or cold waters and tough as nails but bulky to walk in.