Danielle does it again

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Haha seen my post was removed? That's pretty low AO

You are not alone

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Lol. Looks like y’all resigned just in time, lol.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Suicide rates in Canada were the highest 30-50 years ago (per 100K):

1950 8.8
1951 7.9
1952 7.7
1953 7.1
1954 7.2
1955 7.0
1956 7.6
1957 7.5
1958 7.4
1959 7.1
1960 7.6
1961 7.5
1962 7.2
1963 7.6
1964 8.2
1965 8.7
1966 8.6
1967 9.0
1968 9.8
1969 10.9
1970 11.3
1971 11.7
1972 12.0
1973 12.2
1974 12.7
1975 12.1
1976 12.5
1977 14.0
1978 13.4
1979 13.9
1980 13.7
1981 13.7
1982 14.0
1983 14.8
1984 13.4
1985 12.6
1986 14.1
1987 13.6
1988 13.1
1989 12.8
1990 12.2
1991 12.8
1992 13.1
1993 13.3
1994 12.9
1995 13.5
1996 12.3
1997 12.3
1998 12.3
1999 13.4
2000 11.8
2001 11.9
2002 11.6
2003 11.9
2004 11.3
2005 11.6
2006 10.8
2007 11.0
2008 11.1
2009 11.5
2010 11.6
2011 11.3
2012 11.3
2013 11.5
2014 12.0
2015 12.3
2016 11.0
2017 11.3

Not having access to information doesn’t prevent things from happening. Something something, tree falls in the forest with no one to see it fall, does it still make noise?

Thats general population figures. Adult male suicides are dropping. Female youth/teen suicide rate and self harm are increasing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8807993/

[Talking moose]

Talking Moose think think Danielle is alright.
Talking Moose wonders why people do the things they do. Thinks it’s a little weird.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Originally Posted by sns2

I don’t lie and am not given to exaggeration, particularly in serious topics like this.

As to your question, yes. Both students were actually in my class simultaneously. Same grade when they began their hormonal treatment. I can only speak of my experience. I found it jarring to watch the physical and emotional changes that took place in them. That’s just me. Maybe others’ reactions were different, and they were happy for the students. I also wonder to what extent, impressionable young people play follow the leader with this stuff too.

I know this sounds bizarre, but the world is changing so fast. It just needs to pump the damn brakes.

This gov’t is simply following the lead of many countries in Europe who ventured down this road, seen the effects, and have said back up the bus, this is too complex, and too permanent. More study is required.

I'm not an expert, but to my understanding- which is backed up by everything that I'm able to find on the subject now- a kid can't just decide to change genders on their own. Parental consent is a requirement for anyone 17 and under. (Except in cases where they are emancipated, or if they happen to have children themselves, or are married.)

As for your comment about keeping things from parents, your example is a gotcha. You don’t form opinions based on exceptions.

Not at all. There are absolutely kids who don't feel safe enough to tell their parents that they want to be called "she" instead of "he". This change is trying to force them to, if they want to be referred to that in school. Which obviously isn't going to happen. Those kids will just hide it from the school as well as their parents.

No teacher worth their salt would knowingly put a kid at risk. But how well do you think we know the homes? We teach well in excess of a hundred kids and more each semester. We see maybe 1/4 of the parents at meet the teacher night. How much is gleaned in those few minutes where you are trying to act like the parent of the year and we are trying to act like the teacher of the year across our tables. Let’s just be honest. We aren’t psychics.

A lot of the parents I'm talking about are known to the schools without anyone ever even having to meet them. A Child Protection Order...an SRO relaying some info, or a principal being made aware of a legal case...kids themselves telling staff there are problems...it's not that rare and I've never met a teacher who hasn't been exposed to those types of things.

[CBintheNorth]

I don't understand what you lefties are upset about?

She's done more for adult Trans medical procedures in Alberta than any other premier.
People over 18 can now get their "bottom" surgery done right here, rather than having to go to Quebec.
That's great for you guys, isn't it?

Making sure they are adults before they can get it done just means that the person electing to have the surgery will have a chance to let their brain develop and catch up with their hormones, before having a drastic, life-altering procedure done.
Win-win, no?

[Ricki Bobby]

I have to say it, call me old school, being gay or being attracted to the same sex is one thing, but I’m sorry, if a child or youth thinks they want to get a sex change, the said child and parents need to seek counseling of some sort. There, I said it.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I'm not an expert,

You should have stopped there.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Talking Moose think think Danielle is alright.
Talking Moose wonders why people do the things they do. Thinks it’s a little weird.

Hey!! Old Moose is back!!

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

You should have stopped there.

You sure posted more on this thread than he did. Pretty sure you are not an expert on the subject. He actually brought some good context in one post and definitely more than others did in their multiple post.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

You sure posted more on this thread than he did. Pretty sure you are not an expert on the subject. He actually brought some good context in one post and definitely more than others did in their multiple post.

Didn't realize there was a limit imposed?
Would have thought that since I started the thread, I was free to post on it...

I'm not an expert by any stretch, nor do I have to be to assess his post. Trying to tell SNS2 that his thinking as a teacher is flawed because his own opinion is "backed up by everything that I'm able to find on the subject" is why I said that. And I stand by it.

[sns2]

Seems there are a lot of experts.

I’m not.

Nor do I care to be or think I am.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Didn't realize there was a limit imposed?
Would have thought that since I started the thread, I was free to post on it...

Exactly. Just like the other guy, who is also free to post on it or any other thread. No?

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

I'm not an expert by any stretch, nor do I have to be to assess his post. Trying to tell SNS2 that his thinking as a teacher is flawed because his own opinion is "backed up by everything that I'm able to find on the subject" is why I said that. And I stand by it.

Pretty sure he was expressing his opinion with some knowledge to back it, not telling sns that his opinion is flawed. This is called a discussion. Some provide context and learn, others just post. Sns provided context and so did Biggleworth.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

I'm not an expert, but to my understanding- which is backed up by everything that I'm able to find on the subject now- a kid can't just decide to change genders on their own. Parental consent is a requirement for anyone 17 and under. (Except in cases where they are emancipated, or if they happen to have children themselves, or are married.)




Not at all. There are absolutely kids who don't feel safe enough to tell their parents that they want to be called "she" instead of "he". This change is trying to force them to, if they want to be referred to that in school. Which obviously isn't going to happen. Those kids will just hide it from the school as well as their parents.



A lot of the parents I'm talking about are known to the schools without anyone ever even having to meet them. A Child Protection Order...an SRO relaying some info, or a principal being made aware of a legal case...kids themselves telling staff there are problems...it's not that rare and I've never met a teacher who hasn't been exposed to those types of things.

I answered you once, which was once too much. You’re nothing but a socialist troll who comes here to stir up anything that doesn’t jive with your politics for the purpose of getting things shut down. You’ve never contributed one solitary thing in an outdoor discussion. Go back under your rock.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Didn't realize there was a limit imposed?
Would have thought that since I started the thread, I was free to post on it...

I'm not an expert by any stretch, nor do I have to be to assess his post. Trying to tell SNS2 that his thinking as a teacher is flawed because his own opinion is "backed up by everything that I'm able to find on the subject" is why I said that. And I stand by it.

So if I disagree with someone, that's me "telling them their thinking is flawed" and that hurts your feelings, so I shouldn't do it. But if you disagree with someone, that's different?

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Exactly. Just like the other guy, who is also free to post on it or any other thread. No?


Pretty sure he was expressing his opinion with some knowledge to back it, not telling sns that his opinion is flawed. This is called a discussion. Some provide context and learn, others just post. Sns provided context and so did Biggleworth.

Fair enough.
You are absolutely correct. I retract my statement.
Everyone should post their opinions for all to see.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bigglesworth

So if I disagree with someone, that's me "telling them their thinking is flawed" and that hurts your feelings, so I shouldn't do it. But if you disagree with someone, that's different?

You've done nothing but attempt to troll SNS2 with your posts.
Lol. Hurt feelings.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by sns2

Students asking to be called by a different name is a common occurrence in my setting. Very common. In the last handful of years I have had two students medically transition while in my class. In both instances the kids were not old enough to vote or buy a beer. I will never know their feelings that caused them to do such a thing, but I know both families were vehemently opposed to a permanent decision like this being made BEFORE the students’ brains are fully formed. It bothered me deeply to see this. BTW, at least one set of parents solely held a guidance counselor responsible for this.

I’d move to a small town in a split second if my wife would.

The notion of keeping anything of significance from a parent goes against everything in me.

We are just bloody teachers.

We need to stay in our lane, teach curriculum, and let principals and counsellors deal with this stuff.

No one is ever gonna change my mind on that either.

AO, just know that this teacher thinks this stuff is way beyond the mandate of public education. Way in hell beyond.

Just so well said & common sense. Wish every teacher was like you! Thanks!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

You should have stopped there.

Yeah, uh...good one.

Feel free to address the points though, if you're capable. This is a discussion forum, after all. Hate to have to be the one to tell you, but they're meant for "discussion"...not as your personal safe space, where you can come to get high-fives from the people who think the same way as you and everyone else stays away so as not to offend you.

[CBintheNorth]

Was listening to a blog where a psychiatrist was saying that Alberta has had approximately 100 people go to Quebec to have "gender altering" surgeries completed in the last year, with roughly 25% of those being adults.
His take away was that once people become adults, the desire to have the surgery completed, changes.
Makes me wonder why some people feel that waiting till adulthood for something so serious is bad?

[roper1]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Was listening to a blog where a psychiatrist was saying that Alberta has had approximately 100 people go to Quebec to have "gender altering" surgeries completed in the last year, with roughly 25% of those being adults.
His take away was that once people become adults, the desire to have the surgery completed, changes.
Makes me wonder why some people feel that waiting till adulthood for something so serious is bad?

True dat.......and just so reasonable. Tubal ligation & vasectomies are often recommended for later in child bearing window in case a change of mind or circumstances. No big deal. Danielle has this one right!

[ak77]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Does anyone here know for a fact how the whole process of “transformation” works, what steps are involved, stages, what is reversible and what is not, etc? I am just wondering. I know someone who has a pretty good idea and I am going to get some deeds to educate myself on the issue.

Overall, to me personally, it seems to “solving” the problem that doesn’t exist.

The process is not the state guarded secret, information is out there...
The way i see it, just about everything except maybe the very first few conversations are irreversible...
Surgical - self explanatory...
Hormonal - same thing... Especially if started when the body is still forming and it is the opposite type of hormone
Psychological - maybe fixable, but i bet it would take 5x as long to undo the damage done by the "it's ok to be whatever you want" therapy...
I personally have never spoken to the psychiatrist, but i think that if 30 years ago a boy comes to therapy and says "i feel like s girl" the question would be "why?". And now, i think, there would be no questions, just the reassurance that "it's ok to feel that way".

And that problem does exist, it's just applicable to a pretty small percent of the population.... But that small percent has a pretty major following and support of people half of which don't know how to mind their own business, and the other half know they can make loads of money advocating, suing, speaking on behalf of...

[ak77]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

In general. Doubt there is any change of the mix within if there is such a little change overall over time.

While you doubt there's little change in the mix i think if one would look deeper into it there would be bigger and more noticeable changes in each age group...
But again, my speculation bears as much or as little weight as yours without statistical backing...

[Dynamic]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Was listening to a blog where a psychiatrist was saying that Alberta has had approximately 100 people go to Quebec to have "gender altering" surgeries completed in the last year, with roughly 25% of those being adults.
His take away was that once people become adults, the desire to have the surgery completed, changes.
Makes me wonder why some people feel that waiting till adulthood for something so serious is bad?

Okay so just for fun lets say we had 75 Albertans under the age of 18 get gender altering surgeries. I can almost guarantee you almost all of them did so with the support of their parents or somebody in their family. Its not like these kids are coordinating appointments with doctors, specialists, administrators all while going to school and being a kid. Its not going to NAPA and ordering a new exhaust people. And quite frankly if the kid has the ability to pull that off and somehow get a surgery worth hundreds of thousands of dollars without their parents they are pretty mature already, kind of half joking on that part. The part of legislation is a total non issue that didn't need to be one. Because kids going behind their parents backs to change their gender is not a widespread problem. But it is a nice piece of red meat for everyone to fight about while we slide some other stuff in the legislation that hopefully goes under the radar.

Which brings me to having parents having to "opt in" for sex education is probably the slimiest part and most dangerous part of the legislation. Sounds like teachers have to send home permission slips and have them signed (daily?) before teaching any topics on sexual education. From the party that introduced the "Red Tape Reduction". Oh the irony.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Thats general population figures. Adult male suicides are dropping. Female youth/teen suicide rate and self harm are increasing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8807993/

Thanks, I’ll take a look.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Okay so just for fun lets say we had 75 Albertans under the age of 18 get gender altering surgeries. I can almost guarantee you almost all of them did so with the support of their parents or somebody in their family. Its not like these kids are coordinating appointments with doctors, specialists, administrators all while going to school and being a kid. Its not going to NAPA and ordering a new exhaust people. And quite frankly if the kid has the ability to pull that off and somehow get a surgery worth hundreds of thousands of dollars without their parents they are pretty mature already, kind of half joking on that part. The part of legislation is a total non issue that didn't need to be one. Because kids going behind their parents backs to change their gender is not a widespread problem. But it is a nice piece of red meat for everyone to fight about while we slide some other stuff in the legislation that hopefully goes under the radar.

Which brings me to having parents having to "opt in" for sex education is probably the slimiest part and most dangerous part of the legislation. Sounds like teachers have to send home permission slips and have them signed (daily?) before teaching any topics on sexual education. From the party that introduced the "Red Tape Reduction". Oh the irony.

Since you're assuming a lot in your first paragraph, I'll assume a bit too.
How many of those 75% had parents that were more messed up than them, mentally? I'm guessing the majority.
Wouldn't it be good for a child to come to an age when they can make their own educated choices instead of acting on a head full of voices?

As far as your take on the 'opt-in' clause, I suggest you listen again. You are not correct and are exaggerating a fair bit.

[roughneckin]

I wonder how many of you recall this 10 years ago that are giving DS the big hoorah on this matter. I don’t care which way anyone votes it’s their own choice but having open discussions with students saying what she said in the article attached then flip flopping the other way makes me think she is just another puppet.

https://edmontonsun.com/2014/12/03/w...ight-alliances

All politicians are the same. Just wear different colours.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by ak77

The process is not the state guarded secret, information is out there...
The way i see it, just about everything except maybe the very first few conversations are irreversible...
Surgical - self explanatory...
Hormonal - same thing... Especially if started when the body is still forming and it is the opposite type of hormone
Psychological - maybe fixable, but i bet it would take 5x as long to undo the damage done by the "it's ok to be whatever you want" therapy...
I personally have never spoken to the psychiatrist, but i think that if 30 years ago a boy comes to therapy and says "i feel like s girl" the question would be "why?". And now, i think, there would be no questions, just the reassurance that "it's ok to feel that way".

I will look deeper. But to start, from a brief overview, there is a puberty blocker stage that generally takes years and is basically reversible, which comes after evaluation and counselling (I would think counselling is an ongoing process for these people?). I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment of the “psychological stage”. I mean to see a psychologist or a counsellor on this issue is an indicator that there is a serious problem that the person is having with themselves, as well as (likely) with the society, maybe family, etc. I would also suggest that it isn’t likely that individuals in question necessarily want to be a “girl” or a “boy” and I would bet my house that most if not all would give everything away to “want to be” what they actually physically are.

I think that if someone says they feel like a girl and is asked the question of “why” is basically the same as a person coming to the doctor saying their stomach hurts and the doctor asking “why”. The person doesn’t know, which is why they came to see the counsellor or the doctor, so this question would not be appropriate: they feel like whatever they do or their stomach hurts because it does and they both want help. So a question like that is not going to provide any clues to solving the issue and helping the individual. If my kid, on the other hand, says that she hates her younger sister, I can ask her “why” because she (in all likelihood) knows because this feeling is a “learned” behaviour or reaction/feeling. The latter is true story and happened yesterday, lol.

I think the last argument you make doesn’t hold any water as far as reality goes. Do you know any psychologists? They are not there to “reassure” anyone of anything, but to figure out the issue and try to help the individual to the best of their abilities. I know this for a fact because my wife was a child and youth therapist/counsellor up until last year or so. It is a very complex field that requires quite a bit of education and experience, as well as a certain type of individual to be able to do it in the first place. I have heard many horrendous stories about things that happen to kids. Ironically, none included the people we are discussing here. Many if not most actually involved adults that were the primary cause, including parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, etc. The reality is that whatever the issue is, it doesn’t work like people think, ie it’s ok and here is a pill and you will feel much better tomorrow. Like I said, it is extremely complex, even to the individuals with lifetime of experience.

In regard to “it’s ok”. Let’s assume that an individual comes to a psychologist and says that they feel a certain way. First thing to realize is that they didn’t come there because they feel fine and wanted to spread the love and good vibes. They clearly came there because there is something wrong or at the very least they feel like there is. So my best guess about these very individuals we are talking about is that they don’t come and say “I heard there is this therapy and I feel like it would be greatly beneficial to me, so I want to cut my peen/breasts off” (to which the counsellor replies “Hold on, person, what did you forget? A bucket of hormones (and Xanax), and then you will be set!”). So, when a person with some sort of mental distress comes and says certain feelings that they have give them distress (likely of the highest degree because otherwise they wouldn’t be there) and in return they here that these feelings are not ok… What would expect happen to the person? Especially if the person is a kid because this is who we are talking about here.

Originally Posted by ak77

And that problem does exist, it's just applicable to a pretty small percent of the population.... But that small percent has a pretty major following and support of people half of which don't know how to mind their own business, and the other half know they can make loads of money advocating, suing, speaking on behalf of...

The problem surely exists, I should have worded it differently. I would also get right back at you with the first half of people you are referring to, namely those who “don’t know how to mind their own business”. Realistically speaking, of those that are for or against the policy discussed, how many have first hand experience with the issue? I read one or two second hand type of stories in this thread. Since absolute majority of people (and I mean basically everyone) had not have (thankfully) personally experienced a situation where their kids require such “services”, yet have a strong and vocal opinion about it, don’t you think they aren’t minding their own business? For the record, thankfully, I have not had to deal with these issues myself (yet? because who knows) with anyone personally.

Let’s put the question another way, does anyone here think that the school or society or whatever may come to mind would mess up their kids to the point that they will cut their reproduction and milk producing organs off or even consider it?

As for relevance of the problem. A post above suggests that there are (approximately) 100 people from Alberta that got the surgery done (or st least went) in Quebec. I read a few summaries and conclusions/results of the studies on the subject, but this is a good summary of what I saw from an AP article:

Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.

The article: https://apnews.com/article/transgend...c77b5371c6ba2b

So if 1 person out of all Albertans having issues with whatever it is, the subject at hand or something else, and there is a legislation proposed to deal with it (which likely won’t solve it anyway), pardon me if I don’t get excited and start jumping up and down because, frankly, and not sound “insensitive”, but I simply do not care. How many people would it take for me to raise an eyebrow? Pretty sure it would be more than a one out of the entire province. Again, not to sound insensitive, because, in spite of what my wife says, I am a sensitive and understanding individual (and I would probably go out of my way to help that one person too), but there are way more pressing problems I am concerned with that I would like to be addressed first.

Also, ask the people that are directly affected by this policy and see what they think, not the people who “don’t know how to mind their own business” because that shouldn’t matter at all.

Imagine there would be a program that dealt with addiction and would result in 1% regret and reconsideration among the participants.

[slough shark]

Originally Posted by pittman

Yeah I've got kids. What I wouldn't want is to have them marginalized or discriminated against because of something as trivial as gender and sexuality.

DS's ban on gender reassignment surgery is a joke. First off, I'm not sure any gender reassignment has been done with minors here in the province. Though I'm sure she put that point in for the good ol' Christian Conservatives.

Let me give you an example of something that might happen here:
- Young women (minors) have had breast reductions because the boys tease them in school. That's ok?
- A young woman who wants a breast reduction for any other reason that doesn't align with someone else's values is a no? Just because DS said so?

That's laughable. And it's no one else's business. Furthermore, there is nothing DS and her government could do about it anyhow.

What's next? Abortions?

I’m not sure what you’d consider a serious issue for your children if you think that gender and sexuality are trivial issues. If someone goes down the path of going against their own dna especially at a young age it sets them on a course for a lifetime of serious consequences, taking that pathway changes pretty well everything about their life.

[slough shark]

I know this is only semi related but perhaps there ought to be some research as to why all of a sudden in the last decade or so this whole trans thing has skyrocketed in numbers. There has to be something that is causing this either some type of new medication that is being taken or something diet or food related. I’m not that old (43) and this was barely even on the radar when I was in school, it didn’t really even know what it was until 15 years ago much less know anyone who this was an issue for. Something is causing this and we need to find out what it is before we neuter a generation of kids.