1 1/8 inch grouping

[Git r Done]

I have a 222 that will shoot 1 1/8 inch groups with handloads which i know isnt great but i am just wondering how far away this thing will be good on gophers for

[BallCoeff.435]

Lessee now, a gopher is about 1 1/4" wide, so it should be good for 100 yards, right? -Of course, you'll probably have to pull around a concrete benchrest everywhere you go...

[wolf308]

thats similiar to a 223 right? then you could pop em out to 500 yards with the right optics and no heat mirage, however not with that grouping,thats a moose cannon grouping, how far away are you from the lands when you seat your bullet???

[ctd]

Heres a question for you, when you take your first shot where does it land, where you aimed?
First shot is all that matters, dont' care about groupings. Every person is wound up on getting tight groupings. Many shooters are not able to hold a rifle steady enough to get good groupings. Yet their first shot makes the kill.

Shooting groupings is as psychological as it is Physical.

Here is what you need to do, set up a few aiming points on your target (4 or 5)and take shots at them. 1 shot per aim point. If you can hit those points then there is nothing wrong with your shooting.

Getting a grouping of .25 is not impressive to me. Hitting your target first target round is. People will say it builds confidance in your rifle and it's abilities. Sorry any rifle out of the box can attain .25 groupings at 100m with the right shooter behind it. But many are not the right shooters.

The only other suggestion I have is to let someone else who you know is a excellant range grouping shooter (proven by actual performance) shoot your rifle to see if your loads are good.
Good luck and keep us posted on what you find out.

[Lefty-Canuck]

IMHO a decent grouping is relevant in a "gopher gun". Unless you are taking 1 shot every 5-10 minutes and the barrel cools completely between rounds shot to shot variance in a short time span (ie. gopher patch shooting conditions) can make a difference in your hit to miss ratio.

Knowing whether or not a rifle will group "consistantly" is important in a gopher patch scenario.

Under hunting conditions I would tend to agree the first shot is the one that has to count and if you can get follow up shots within 1.5-2.0 MOA from the first shot then you are good to go (although I prefer less than MOA if possible )

Lefty

[wolf308]

if whoever is shooting gophers chances are their gonna have a warm barrel though,poi is gonna change and so forth, gonna have to walk into the target too at ranges past 200 sometimes as well, wind and such.

ctd: i understand what your saying,thats fine for a big game rifle hence why i said moose, but gophers are tiny, at 300 yards his spread will be 4 inches and thats under optimum cond. or whatever he used for testing his bullets,4 inches to the right and hes gonna miss that cute moving target. 6 shots one kill. his rifle and load aint even moa and your telling him its ok for gophers!

git r done: is the rifle a wood stock on it, cause sometimes theyll heat up and the forend on the stock will change the poi as well, especially if its in a straight line leading out further from the poa

[elkhunter11]

Heres a question for you, when you take your first shot where does it land, where you aimed?
First shot is all that matters, dont' care about groupings. Every person is wound up on getting tight groupings. Many shooters are not able to hold a rifle steady enough to get good groupings. Yet their first shot makes the kill.

Gopher shooting is one case where more than the first shot out of a cold barrel is important. A rifle that puts the first shot in the bull then strings the following shots as the barrel heats up isn't much good as a gopher gun that might shoot 100 shots in an hour.

As for a 222 that only groups 1-1/8" at 100 yards, and I would at least hope that is for five shot groups, for gophers,I would be using a rimfire instead, because the 222 isn't going to gain you much with that kind of accuracy.

[hardy]

Exponentially 1 1/8" turns to 3 and 3/8" at 300 yards. With a steady hold you should be able to hit a gopher out that far maybe not on every shot but I'd like to think 2 for 3. A gopher is around 2" wide and 7-8" long so there should be a reasonable probability of a hit. My buddy uses a .222 rem 700 and shoots em between 2 and 300 yards no prob.

[elkhunter11]

Exponentially 1 1/8" turns to 3 and 3/8" at 300 yards. With a steady hold you should be able to hit a gopher out that far maybe not on every shot but I'd like to think 2 for 3.

That formula more often than not, doesn't work out. Usually the groups open up at a greater rate as the distance increases, due to increases in sighting error, and due to other effects such as small breezes that aren't even noticeable when shooting at 100 yards.

[lannie]

Another nauseating response. Why don't you bring in the coriollis effect too.

[ctd]

Thats why you use multiple aiming points on your target and shoot at each one, how fast you want to shoot depends on you.
Another good skill you and a partner can do is set up a couple of targets with multiple aiming points, then have your partner tell you top left, bottom left etc to gain some skill on moving the barrell around while shooting afterall first shot is the only real shot that counts all the rest your lucky.

At the end of the day some people just cannot shoot groups. But are excellant shots.

[elkhunter11]

Another nauseating response. Why don't you bring in the coriollis effect too.

So you find simple facts nauseating? Well it is a simple fact that 1" groups at 100 yards often don't result in 2" groups at 200 yards, or 3" groups at 300 yards. It's not as simple as using a mathematical equation to determine the accuracy at a specific distance. If you want to know how accurate a given gun/load/ combination is at 300 yards, then you need to shoot that specific load, in that specific gun at 300 yards.

A lot of people are disappointed when they shoot longer distances for the first time, and those 1" groups at 100 yards turn out to be 5" groups at 300 yards, and 10" groups at 500 yards.

[260 Rem]

A "group" involves two basic factors: First, the rifle (of which most out-of-the box factory models are not capable of consistent groups -5 shots- much under an inch)....and the shooter (of which the majority of shooters cannot consistently hold under 1/2" @ 100M). If the combination of rifle and shooter can't consistently shoot a decent group, they probably can't consistently hit a chosen target consistently either...except perhaps on the net.
In the real world, a shooter who scores 1 1/8" groups @ 100M off a bench, should not expect to clean kill a gopher off a bipod with more than 50% of shots taken at the same distance...which would translate into about 25% of the shots taken @200M. All that turf flying around @ 200M will soon turn a nice short grass pasture into summer fallow!

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by ctd

Sorry any rifle out of the box can attain .25 groupings at 100m with the right shooter behind it. But many are not the right shooters.

Sorry, but this simply is not the norm.

I consider myself a pretty good shot and I can tell you that I rarely get a factory rifle, that most folks don't have to blow two or three weeks wages on, to shoot a 3/4 inch group. That is with trying a lot of different factory ammo for it.

With handloads that have been worked up and tweaked the percentage usually goes up quickly. Once the action has been bedded and the trigger tuned the percentage increases again. True the action and you get better yet.

But 1/4" out of the box??? Maybe it's because I shoot 100 yards instead of 100m.

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by ctd

Sorry any rifle out of the box can attain .25 groupings at 100m with the right shooter behind it.

Are you serious? .25 of an inch.......
There are a few companies who test fire their barrels & actions in a vise before mounting them in a stock. I can tell you that they aren't getting .25" groups even shooting from a vise.

[eric2381]

Originally Posted by ctd

Getting a grouping of .25 is not impressive to me. Hitting your target first target round is. People will say it builds confidance in your rifle and it's abilities. Sorry any rifle out of the box can attain .25 groupings at 100m with the right shooter behind it. But many are not the right shooters.

Please post pics of all your rifles and please post pics of the stacks of targets with 1/4 moa groups on them. It'd be interesting to see.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Git r Done

I have a 222 that will shoot 1 1/8 inch groups with handloads which i know isnt great but i am just wondering how far away this thing will be good on gophers for

With a rifle like that you are goodtogo IMO.
try it, you find that you can hit gopher quite well with it, as well as you can with a rifle that will print .250.
The shooter is the biggest variable in any shot, and throwing wind and mirage into the mix proves that.
Cat

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by ctd

. Sorry any rifle out of the box can attain .25 groupings at 100m with the right shooter behind it. But many are not the right shooters.

.

Ohhhh Boy........this I gotta see

[260 Rem]

The availability of factory rifles that shoot consistent 1/4" groups is great news! No more need for me to order custom actions or tolerate the long wait for match barrels.... using custom built reamers...and stocks.... and then discover my $3000.00+ rifle (and me) shoots in the 3's & 4's! I'm off to look at a $400.00 Stevens tack driver package (may as well go for the top line 3 X 9 Simmons scope included in the deal).

[JohnS]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

The availability of factory rifles that shoot consistent 1/4" groups is great news! No more need for me to order custom actions or tolerate the long wait for match barrels.... using custom built reamers...and stocks.... and then discover my $3000.00+ rifle (and me) shoots in the 3's & 4's! I'm off to look at a $400.00 Stevens tack driver package (may as well go for the top line 3 X 9 Simmons scope included in the deal).

thats funny

[ctd]

You guys are hilarious.
I never once said I was a great shot. But I do know many people who are.

This attitude that you have to spend great money in order to attain high results is a pile of garbage. Spend lots of money to show off to the guy next to you is usually the norm. You can custom load all you want, but if you can't shoot it is of little consequence.

I will try to find a few pictures of targets I have shot using a cheapo Rem710 chambered in 7mm with 3x9x40 Bushnell Banner scope. All shot at 100yards at Emiles range in Red Deer and all targets with all rounds touching each other measuring at 1/4" centers to centers.

Generally my groups are 1" at 100 yards using 175gr Federal Power Shoks. But sometimes if the moon is right and the tide is good I can get them to below .5"

Shooting well takes extreme discipline and most people do not have this discipline. Many think they do but very few actully have it.

If you want to be a good shot practice, but practice with a friend who also wants to learn and have them critique you, video tape yourself and then watch that tape. You will notice lots of your bad habits.
For good accurate shooting of gophers get into instinctive shooting and practice at different ranges and conditions. Learn to shoot from different positions. (unless you set up a full bench and stay in the same spot waiting for them to pop their heads up).

Or if your just out for fun then just blast away and hopefully hit a few of the little buggers.

90% of the errors in shooting is the operator. Not the equipment.

[elkhunter11]

Sorry any rifle out of the box can attain .25 groupings at 100m with the right shooter behind it. But many are not the right shooters.

So why is it that even the companies that offer accuracy guarantees on their sporting rifles, only offer at best a three shot .5" group at 100 yards, and most are 1" or even 1-1/2"? These companies employ professional shooters, that do this for a living. The companies offing 1/2" guarantees use high powered optics, shoot in a climate controlled range, shoot match grade bullets, in handloasded ammunition, and yet they don't offer a .25" at 100 yard accuracy guarantee. Could it be that even these companies are not naive enough to think that they can count on thier high dollar rifles to shoot .25" groups at 100 yards ,even under ideal conditions with professional shooters?

[jim-bo]

Originally Posted by ctd

I will try to find a few pictures of targets I have shot using a cheapo Rem710 chambered in 7mm with 3x9x40 Bushnell Banner scope. All shot at 100yards at Emiles range in Red Deer and all targets with all rounds touching each other measuring at 1/4" centers to centers.

Generally my groups are 1" at 100 yards using 175gr Federal Power Shoks. But sometimes if the moon is right and the tide is good I can get them to below .5"

Shooting well takes extreme discipline and most people do not have this discipline. Many think they do but very few actully have it.

Some times the moons align and you flinch your 1.5" group into a .25" group... this is a more likely scenario.

Not a lot of rifles are truly capable of this. especially "out of the box" factory models, .25 MOA is obtainable but it requires immense discipline on the part of the shooter, and the right equipment to do the job.

I think to get consistently under .25 MOA, and by consistently I mean you can set of on a bench and shoot .25-.35 and not .25-1.5, you need equipment matched to the shooter, and a shooter who is already a proven marksmen.

I have gotten my hunting rifles under 1" before, not consisently, sometimes the moons align, the wind blows just right and you zig and not zag and something miraculous happens.

[260 Rem]

CTD - OK, I confess, some of us are having a bit of fun with you! However, the bottom line with regards to "out-of-the-box accuracy" even when using handloads that have been "worked up"...it is pretty much impossible to get consistent (even three shot groups) that measure 0.25" @ 100M. It does happen occassionally if you shoot enough, but to suggest that a gun is a "quarter incher" because it has shot a few groups in that range...just doesn't make sense to those of us who spend a lot of time at the Range, shooting custom built rifles, using handloads made with top quality brass Lapua), which is run through good reloading equipment (Redding). I personally shoot about 3000 rounds of centerfire per year and although I make no claim that I am a good shot... I think I have pretty decent "bench" technique. During the 200 or so visits I make to the Range each year, I hear lots of claims that certain guns are "tack drivers"...but I seldom see any groups on my trips to the target board, that are better than the ones I shot that day. The last time I heard a "sniper" claim he could hit a pack of smokes @ 700M, I dug a empty pack from the garbage and even offered to post it at 300M.... Like usually happens in these cases, he "didn't have his good loads on hand that day" so he saved me the walk out to 300M.
When I say my gun shoots a half inch ...what I mean is that, on any given day with good conditions, it will group about 0.5" @ 100M. Some of those groups may be 0.65 and some of them may be 0.35". No point in cherry picking the best group for the claim.
I believe all "load test" groups should include 5 shots. All five are counted every time (never "but I got one flier").
Oh, by the way, shooting groups is a good test of the shooters skill..and there is no difference in the skill required to shoot at the same bullseye five times than shooting five different bullseyes!

[ctd]

So what is the acceptable group size from a factory rifle.
If .25 of an inch is near impossible to attain, and 1 and 1/8th of an inch is to big at 100yards? What is a good group size?

I got big shoulders I can allow anyone of you to have some fun with what I wrote.
But I know that my cheapo rifle has shot .25 inch groupings more then once at 100 yards. Will it do it all time, I am not 100% sure. Can I shoot that all the time nope.
I can shoot 1 inch groups regularly at 100yards as I already stated, but if I switch out to 150gr then I am lucky to hit 4inch groups. Funny how that works.

260 Rem good post,
I do disagree with what you mentoned about shooting groups is no differnent then shooting at different bullseyes. This is where the psychological aspect of shooting comes into play. It wreaks havoc on many shooters who are otherwise great shots.

I would love to see some of your setups and watch you shoot. (I am being serious)

I am done posting for this one.

[catnthehat]

I like as tight a shooting rifle as i can load for , but if my walking varminter of choice is shooting 1 1/8" I'm okay with that, and can take some decently long shots with it.
however, once I get out past the sane ranges , I like my guns shooting REAL tight.
Gopher guns for the most part however, are rimfires unless I'm messing with my small bore centre fire match rifles. They shoot a lot tighter than 1 1/8"at 100 yards all day every day.
Cat

[elkhunter11]

So what is the acceptable group size from a factory rifle.If .25 of an inch is near impossible to attain, and 1 and 1/8th of an inch is to big at 100yards? What is a good group size?

To me that depends on the intended use of the rifle, and on the cost of the rifle.

For a lower priced, heavy barreled varmint rifle, I would expect at least 5 shots into the 3/4" range at 100 yards. With a higher quality gun, I expect five shots in the 1/2" range at 100 yards. In both cases, I would be using handloads.

With a lower priced bolt action ,big game rifle, I expect three shots into the 1" range at 100 yards. With a higher end bolt action, big game rifle, I expect three shots in the 1/2" to 3/4" range at 100 yards. Again, hand loads would be used.

For a lower priced rimfire, I expect 1/2" to 3/4" for five shots at 50 yards. With a higher end rimfire, I expect five shots in the 3/8" or better range at 50 yards. In both cases, I would be using mid priced loads.

Originally Posted by ctd

So what is the acceptable group size from a factory rifle.
.

On an average hunting rifle, a 1" group keeps me pretty happy.

[260 Rem]

CTD - I think both elk/sheephunter have given pretty realistic assesments of what to expect from factory rifles (with handloads or premium ammo) in the hands of a reasonably competent shooter. If you are shooting about an inch @ 100M you are doing OK, and although jumping from 1" to 4" is a bit on the extreme side...you should not be surprised when your rifle shoots different with different bullets. Once you really get into the technical aspects of building rifles and nuances of handloading, you will better understand what factors affect accuracy. Some of us are probably pretty boring (and most certainly anal) with the things we do to improve accuracy.
CTD, you are a good sport to take our "ribbing" in such a good natured manner and I am convinced you are ready to learn..and can probably teach the the rest of us a bit as well! I shoot at SPFGA Range and if you PM me, I wouild be happy to help you fine tune your rig. I do not have .222 dies but can give you lots of opinion regarding what works for me.
I have two projects on the go..both Barnard actions...one 'S' and one 'SM' which will be switch barrels. One will be 30BR and probably 6.5 X 47 Lapua...and the other a .308 and 260 Rem.

[hardy]

Crazy yah tell a guy he can hit a gopher at 300 yards when his gun only shoots an inch at 100 and you catch flak like you just suggested the impossible. Funny how a bull elk 80 years ago went down to a 30-30 but now won't die unless you shoot it with an Abrams Tank.