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Old 03-16-2024, 11:57 AM
burnme burnme is offline
 
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Default Bare Trust Question

Are there any accountants on here who could help me understand this. If I cosigned a mortgage with my kid, does one automatically have to register it as a "Bare Trust"? Or would one only have to register it, if and when the main owner passes away? I read some stuff on the CRA page, and I am having a hard time deciding my position. Thanks, in advance!

https://globalnews.ca/news/10363565/...x-season-2024/
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Old 03-16-2024, 12:11 PM
The Cook The Cook is offline
 
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I'm in the same boat. I asked the local bank manager and my accountant and was told the accountant could set up a bare trust for 6 to 8 hundred dollars, he also told me to hang on and see what happens as the time limit on being fined has been bumped ahead. Clear as mud like any liberal boondoggle.
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Old 03-16-2024, 12:12 PM
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http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...ght=bear+trust
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Old 03-16-2024, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnme View Post
Are there any accountants on here who could help me understand this. If I cosigned a mortgage with my kid, does one automatically have to register it as a "Bare Trust"? Or would one only have to register it, if and when the main owner passes away? I read some stuff on the CRA page, and I am having a hard time deciding my position. Thanks, in advance!

https://globalnews.ca/news/10363565/...x-season-2024/
How did you arrange title ownership? Joint Ownership or are you a tenant in common?

If joint ownership… when you die the house automatically becomes your kids. Won’t be part of an estate. May have issues in the event your kid divorces as it isn’t inheritance. Also any other kids can’t share in your portion legally.

I would err on the side of caution in an CRA question and just call them up. AOF members sleep occasionally at Holiday Inn Expresses… but we still aren’t the experts.

To my read on this… if a joint owner… it’s not a trust. If you own a home or a partial share and have full control over the home for your child… that would more likely be a trust… especially if funds are controlled by yourself.
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Old 03-16-2024, 04:14 PM
Grizzly Adams1 Grizzly Adams1 is offline
 
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Just back from a forum where this was discussed, made up on the fly and no one has a clue what the real implications are.
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Old 03-16-2024, 11:17 PM
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https://financialpost.com/opinion/ne...rusts-disaster

Definitely looks like the whole process is messed up.



Quote:
Opinion: New CRA reporting rules for trusts are a disaster
Intended to catch trust cheats, rules create offence of failing to file, which thousands of innocent trustees will likely do

Author of the article: Allan Lanthier, Special to Financial Post
Published Mar 14, 2024 • Last updated 2 days ago • 4 minute read
35 Comments
The new rules are so complex even tax professionals are struggling to understand them: as a result, the Canada Revenue Agency has waived the penalty for bare trusts for the first year.
CANADIAN PRESS
Article content
By Allan Lanthier

Have you added your name to the legal title of your daughter’s new home to help her obtain a mortgage? Or opened an “in trust” bank or brokerage account for your grandson to help fund his education down the road? If so, you have a problem, and these are just two examples of many.

Under new tax reporting rules that apply to years ending after Dec. 30, 2023, you could be liable to a penalty of up to five per cent of the fair value of the home or “in trust” account if you don’t report the arrangement, even if there isn’t a penny of tax owing. The purpose of these rules is to counter tax evasion, money laundering and other criminal activities. Their likely effect will be to put thousands of innocent Canadians on the wrong side of the law.

Like many government initiatives, this one started with the best of intentions: greater transparency. If a person has legal title to a property but holds it for the benefit of the “true owner” — someone who controls it and is entitled to all its earnings — a reporting requirement will help the government ferret out illicit arrangements if that “someone” is a scoundrel. That was the theory. But then the bureaucrats weighed in and the rules spiralled out of control.

Under the old rules, a trust was generally only required to file a tax return if it had tax to pay or sold a property. And there was never a requirement to file where one person held legal title to an asset as agent for someone else: that “someone else” was required to declare all taxable income from the asset — and still is.

The new rules require a “bare trustee” — a person or corporation that has legal title to an asset as agent for the true owner — to file an annual trust return even if the bare trustee owes no taxes. There are some limited exceptions: for example, a return is not required if the arrangement involves assets with a value of no more than $50,000, provided the only assets are cash, listed securities or government debt obligations. If there are any other assets, such as a GIC, you have to file.

For a trust with a year end of Dec. 31, 2023, the return must be filed by April 2 this year. The penalty for late-filed returns is a maximum of $2,500. But the new rules are so complex even tax professionals are struggling to understand them: as a result, the Canada Revenue Agency has waived the penalty for bare trusts for the first year.

But now there is a second penalty: five per cent of the highest value of the trust assets during the year if the failure to file was deliberate or the result of negligence. So, if you added your name to your daughter’s home to help her get financing, you could face a penalty of five per cent of the property’s value for every year you fail to file the form.

It could add up. Assume that 10 years from now, the CRA starts sniffing around and discovers you are a “bare trustee” of your daughter’s home but never reported. The property has a value of $1 million and, at the five per cent rate, the CRA charges you a penalty of $50,000 a year plus interest. “But no tax was owing,” you say. “It doesn’t matter,” the CRA replies.

The absurdities continue. For commercial reasons, many corporate groups in real estate development or oil and gas exploration use nominee corporations to hold legal title to assets, with other corporations being the “true owners” — in other words, bare trusts. A large corporate group with many projects may now have to complete hundreds of filings each year at a very significant cost: the new reporting forms are excruciatingly detailed.

How we got to this sorry state is a long story. Canada has a self-assessment tax regime: you report the tax you owe and can be in serious trouble if you do not. Increasingly, however, taxpayers must now also report their arrangements even if there is no tax owing at all, with onerous penalties simply for failing to file a government form.

John Tavares, #91 of the Toronto Maple Leafs, during the first period against the Seattle Kraken at Climate Pledge Arena on Jan. 21 in Seattle, Washington.
Canadians want the Stanley Cup back. The CRA? Not so much
Toronto Maple Leafs' John Tavares (91) skates off the ice as the New York Islanders celebrate their win in NHL hockey action in Toronto on Feb. 5.
CRA losing Tavares case wouldn’t help bring the cup home
The Canada Revenue Agency headquarters' Connaught Building in Ottawa.
Dithering by Canada Revenue Agency leads to million-dollar loss

Government intrusion requires reasonable limits. Just days ago, a U.S. district court struck down as unconstitutional U.S. rules that require reporting of “true ownership” interests. Ottawa should scrap its own initiative and start over with a blank sheet of paper. Let’s go after the scoundrels and forget about plain-vanilla family and commercial arrangements. Catching the real scoundrels, not fabricating new ones, was the point, after all.
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Old 03-17-2024, 12:30 PM
burnme burnme is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
How did you arrange title ownership? Joint Ownership or are you a tenant in common?

If joint ownership… when you die the house automatically becomes your kids. Won’t be part of an estate. May have issues in the event your kid divorces as it isn’t inheritance. Also any other kids can’t share in your portion legally.

I would err on the side of caution in an CRA question and just call them up. AOF members sleep occasionally at Holiday Inn Expresses… but we still aren’t the experts.

To my read on this… if a joint owner… it’s not a trust. If you own a home or a partial share and have full control over the home for your child… that would more likely be a trust… especially if funds are controlled by yourself.


Thanks, that's the way I read it as well. I will make some calls tomorrow. We just completed our will updates so will reach out to them and CRA.

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Old 03-19-2024, 12:51 PM
burnme burnme is offline
 
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So sent an email to the lawyer who did our wills, they said "it could be a bare trust".
Talked to CRA and they said "we can't tell you if it is a bare trust or not, we can give you the definitions of it and then you must decide".
Still not sure...
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Old 03-19-2024, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnme View Post
So sent an email to the lawyer who did our wills, they said "it could be a bare trust".
Talked to CRA and they said "we can't tell you if it is a bare trust or not, we can give you the definitions of it and then you must decide".
Still not sure...
You need a better lawyer.
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Old 03-19-2024, 03:52 PM
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You guys might find this article from Scotia Wealth Helpful. It also has a link for expanded interpretation just puvlished bt Revenue Canada.

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...mber-2023.html

https://livesocial.seismic.com/ljp_9a

— Wealth Management Taxation, Scotia Capital Inc.

March 5, 2024

Have you established an in-trust-for (ITF) account for your child or grandchild? Do you own a bank account, non-registered investment account, or certain other assets, such as real property, jointly with your parent, child, or others?

If so, you may be subject to the new trust reporting requirements and required to file a T3 Trust Income Tax and Information Return (T3 Return).
New trust reporting requirements

The income tax rules governing which trusts must file an annual T3 Return have been expanded for trusts with a taxation year ending after December 30, 2023. Under the new trust reporting requirements, all trusts, unless specific conditions are met, must now file a T3 Return with the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) and report additional beneficial ownership information annually. As a result, many trusts, including bare trusts, that did not previously have to file may now be required to file an annual T3 Return.
What is a bare trust?

A bare trust for income tax purposes includes an arrangement under which a trustee can reasonably be considered to act as agent for all the beneficiaries under the trust with respect to all dealings with all of the trust’s property. There is no requirement for a bare trust to be documented or to sign a formal bare trust agreement establishing the parties’ intentions.

The CRA notes that a trustee can reasonably be considered to act as agent for a beneficiary when the trustee has no significant powers or responsibilities, can take no action without instructions from that beneficiary, and their only function is to hold legal title to the property. For the trustee to be considered as the agent for all the beneficiaries of a trust, it would generally be necessary for the trustee to consult and take instructions from each and every beneficiary with respect to all dealings with all of the trust property.

So, if you have legal ownership of an account or assets but only act as agent for a beneficiary and do not have beneficial ownership of the account or assets, you may be a trustee of a bare trust subject to the new trust reporting requirements.

Examples of bare trust arrangements may include:

You establish an ITF account for your child or grandchild, where you hold legal ownership of the account and assets, but your child or grandchild is the beneficial owner;
You add your child(ren) as a legal owner of certain assets for ease of administration and probate planning purposes without transferring any beneficial ownership to them; or
You add your parents as legal owners of real property for mortgage qualification purposes without transferring any beneficial ownership to them.

What could the new trust reporting requirements mean to you?

If you are the trustee of a bare trust, you may now be required to file an annual T3 Return, subject to certain exceptions, including Schedule 15, Beneficial ownership information of a trust (Schedule 15). Schedule 15 requires you to provide certain information on all trustees, settlors, beneficiaries, and controlling persons (persons who have the ability, through the terms of the trust or a related agreement, to exert influence over trustee decisions regarding the appointment of income or capital of the trust) of the trust. This information includes their name, address, date of birth (if applicable), country of residence, and tax identification number (e.g., Social Insurance Number, Business Number, Trust Number, or, in the case of a non-resident trust, the identification number assigned by a foreign jurisdiction).

A T3 Return is due 90 days after a trust’s year-end. Bare trusts have a calendar year-end of December 31. So, 2023 T3 returns for bare trusts are due by April 2, 2024, as March 30 is a Saturday and April 1 is Easter Monday.
What may happen if you do not file a T3 Return if required?

You may be subject to penalties if you do not file a T3 Return if you are required to do so. Specifically for bare trusts, the late-filing penalty is $25 per day for each day the T3 Return is late, from a minimum of $100 to a maximum of $2,500.

The CRA will only provide relief to bare trusts by waiving any late filing penalty for the 2023 tax year if the T3 Return, including Schedule 15, is filed after the filing deadline. This proactive relief is applicable for bare trusts only and only for the 2023 tax year.

Notably, a different penalty may apply if you fail to file the T3 Return and Schedule 15 for the 2023 tax year knowingly or due to gross negligence. This penalty will be equal to the greater of $2,500 and 5% of the highest amount at any time in the year of the fair market value of all the property held by the trust.
What are the exceptions to the new trust reporting requirements?

There are exceptions to the new trust reporting requirements for certain trusts. Among others, these exceptions include:

trusts that have been in existence for less than three months at the end of the year;
trusts that hold only certain assets with a total fair market value that does not exceed $50,000 throughout the year, such as money (note that money does not include collectible gold or silver coins, or gold or silver bars); a share, debt obligation, or right listed on a designated stock exchange; a share of the capital stock of a mutual fund corporation; or a unit of a mutual fund trust;
registered plans, such as Registered Retirement Savings Plans, Registered Retirement Income Funds, Registered Pension Plans, Tax-Free Savings Accounts, First Home Savings Accounts, Registered Education Savings Plans, Registered Disability Savings Accounts, Employee Profit Sharing Plans, and Deferred Profit Sharing Plans;
a Graduated Rate Estate; and
a Qualified Disability Trust.

In conclusion

The CRA has published information and guidance on the new trust reporting requirements on its website, New trust reporting requirements for T3 returns filed for tax years ending after December 30, 2023, as a helpful resource when determining and completing your annual income tax filing and reporting obligations. These new trust reporting requirements may be onerous, and you should consult with your tax advisor to review your circumstances, determine your applicable annual reporting requirements, and plan to meet the annual filing deadline, if applicable.

This article is only an overview of the new trust reporting requirements. Everyone’s situation is unique, and any general tax planning opportunity may not benefit every person. Speak with your own tax and legal advisors for further discussion and analysis and before implementing any tax, estate, asset administration, or probate planning strategies.
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  #11  
Old 03-19-2024, 05:16 PM
hansol hansol is offline
 
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CRA isn't there to help you. And very frequently they give wrong answers.

And unless you get it in writing, whatever the call center dudes tell you isn't formal advice. They can tell you the wrong thing, and there are no consequences.

https://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/E...2_e_42667.html

Much better idea to talk to a tax pro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnme View Post
So sent an email to the lawyer who did our wills, they said "it could be a bare trust".

Talked to CRA and they said "we can't tell you if it is a bare trust or not, we can give you the definitions of it and then you must decide".

Still not sure...
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Old 03-20-2024, 06:24 AM
hansol hansol is offline
 
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In the interest of being helpful, here's what a comment from a ridiculously smart CPA in my professional bubble:

"I hear a lot of lawyers advising that, as long as you legally own property that you do not beneficially own 100% (e.g. your name is on the account but it's not your money), you are holding property in trust, so a T3 is required." (Emphasis mine.)

This is a very conservative approach, but hopefully gives a bit of clarity.
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Old 03-25-2024, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hansol View Post
In the interest of being helpful, here's what a comment from a ridiculously smart CPA in my professional bubble:

"I hear a lot of lawyers advising that, as long as you legally own property that you do not beneficially own 100% (e.g. your name is on the account but it's not your money), you are holding property in trust, so a T3 is required." (Emphasis mine.)

This is a very conservative approach, but hopefully gives a bit of clarity.
Also saw that CRA is waiving penalties for this year if someone makes an honest mistake.
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Old 03-26-2024, 06:57 AM
oldjeda oldjeda is offline
 
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Default Another question for the professionals in our community

Since this first came to light, I’ve consulted with 3 different accountants about our situation and they are now all in agreement that we qualify as trustees under the Bare Trust directive. My sister and I and our elderly parents are all on joint bank accounts (for estate planning purposes only). Five of the accounts qualify but it’s our parents money and my sister and I don’t touch it.

Problem is that my sisters husband (a geologist) says his interpretation is that we don’t qualify as trustees on a Bare Trust so my sister is refusing to do the paperwork on her end.

When my T3 goes into CRA, any thoughts on what will happen?

Inquiring minds want to know 🤔……
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Old 03-29-2024, 01:40 AM
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https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7159122

Bare trust reporting cancelled for 2023 tax year.
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Old 03-29-2024, 08:02 AM
Grizzly Adams1 Grizzly Adams1 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7159122

Bare trust reporting cancelled for 2023 tax year.
Even Revenue Canada can't figure it out. That's Bad.
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Old 03-29-2024, 08:08 AM
Geraldsh Geraldsh is offline
 
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CRA has found another way to mess with your mind/money and they will eventually make you lose both.
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Old 03-29-2024, 08:21 AM
nsmitchell nsmitchell is offline
 
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Default Refunds for those that Paid?

I wonder if there will be refunds for the folks that tried to comply already and paid an accountant to file. Not a chance. Another fine government program. Why in the hell do they care if I cosigned my kid's mortgage? What a waste of time and effort for everyone including CRA.
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Old 03-29-2024, 09:56 AM
burnme burnme is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsmitchell View Post
I wonder if there will be refunds for the folks that tried to comply already and paid an accountant to file. Not a chance. Another fine government program. Why in the hell do they care if I cosigned my kid's mortgage? What a waste of time and effort for everyone including CRA.
Totally agree, just another headache for the ones who want to follow the rules! Glad I held off!
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Old 03-29-2024, 10:12 AM
glen moa glen moa is offline
 
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It’s like they are purposely screwing everything up.
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